Inspector took my details - PLEASE HELP

[fowler9]

"Please do not walk away, as being rugby-tackled to the ground and having your head sat on may cause some discomfort"...

Ha ha. It would be nice I am sure but I would be gobsmacked if any member of staff got away with that.

 

[bb21]

As I said, 'tis all meant as a theoretical discussion (or, rhetorical(?) not really sure which word suits here)

But on a serious not, could a Rail Officer really "rugby tackle" a fare evader to the ground?

No, they won't detain you or rugby-tackle you, but as Clip said, you might need to think twice about using that station or route again, and any irregularity can quite likely be dealt with with no discretion and under the full force of the law.

 

[Clip]

As I said, 'tis all meant as a theoretical discussion (or, rhetorical(?) not really sure which word suits here)

But on a serious not, could a Rail Officer really "rugby tackle" a fare evader to the ground?

S/He could slap you on the arse with a tennis racquet if they so wanted too.

 

[gray1404]

"...even if that official merely believes or suspects that an offence has taken place."

So does that suspension or belief have to be "reasonable" though? (i.e. not plucked out of n where and, to some extent, have to be justifiable)?

 

[Stigy]

You MUST give your name & address to an authorised official if you are asked, even if that official merely believes or suspects that an offence has taken place.




Citizens arrests can be made for most Common Law offences (a notable exception is Breach of the Peace). Regardless of whether the accused is later found not guilty or not proven the arrest will be deemed lawful if the arrestor held a reasonable belief that an offence had been committed and that the arrestee is involved. It should be noted that unlike a constable, who can act on the information of a credible witness, you can not perform a citizens arrest unless you, yourself, have witnessed the offence. [Scots Law]

it used to be that you could carry out a Citizen's Arrest only if you witnessed an indictable offences taking place. Now however, it's accepted that you can make a Citizen's Arrest or Any Person Arrest as it is now if you hold a reasonable suspicion that such an offence has occured.

 

[Flamingo]

"...even if that official merely believes or suspects that an offence has taken place."

So does that suspension or belief have to be "reasonable" though? (i.e. not plucked out of n where and, to some extent, have to be justifiable)?

A ticketing irregularity or refusal to show one, for example?

One side-effect of "creative" ticketing is that if the ticket is not an obvious A to B via route XY, then the Revenue staff may have to go away and do the same trawling of maps, routing guides, NRCoC etc as the passenger did to confirm the tickets validity (or otherwise...). They would then need the passengers details to either confirm, or request payment depending on the result of their research.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As I said, 'tis all meant as a theoretical discussion (or, rhetorical(?) not really sure which word suits here)

But on a serious not, could a Rail Officer really "rugby tackle" a fare evader to the ground?

It is highly unlikely that a Rail Officer would, as (although they have got the statutory powers to do so) there is not a TOC in the country that allows it's staff to intervene physically, due to the legal minefield surrounding it (not least the risk of that employee making a claim against said TOC if injured as TOC's neither train or equip it's employees for physical intervention and restraint).

HOWEVER, the two chaps in jeans and anoraks casually hanging around taking a bored interest in the activities at the gateline are probably not two spotters or a couple of commuters, but plain-clothes BTP. They are trained and equipped to rugby-tackle said fare-evader to the ground and sit on his/her head (and complaints to the TOC's customer-service department afterwards are highly unlikely to result in free vouchers...).

BTP often provide a presence at Revenue blockades (overt or covert) for this very reason, along with the fishing expedition that being stopped for fare evasion allows them to take in terms of searching the individual for contraband and checking up for outstanding warrents etc. From this point of view alone, I've heard of major drug seizures, offensive weapons (knives and guns), bail-jumpers and all sorts being lifted as a "Brucie bonus" of the Revenue operation.

Indeed, I've known revenue operations take place simply to provide a reason for BTP to "stop and search" on certain trouble trains. Once the passenger tells the guard to "F*^+ off, I don't buy tickets", the two chaps sitting down show their warrent card and the discussion continues at the next station.

To coin a phrase, "They have to be lucky all the time, we only have to be lucky once..."

 

[tony_mac]

A ticketing irregularity or refusal to show one, for example?

probably not an indictable offence.

 

[najaB]

probably not an indictable offence.

The RoRA gives power of detention to any authorised officer of the railway. I agree it doesn't give the power to a disinterested citizen.

 

[Stigy]

The RoRA gives power of detention to any authorised officer of the railway. I agree it doesn't give the power to a disinterested citizen.

Indeed it does, but it's not the same as an any person arrest. Fare evasion isn't indictable as it's a summary only offence.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is highly unlikely that a Rail Officer would, as (although they have got the statutory powers to do so) there is not a TOC in the country that allows it's staff to intervene physically, due to the legal minefield surrounding it (not least the risk of that employee making a claim against said TOC if injured as TOC's neither train or equip it's employees for physical intervention and restraint).

Most TOCs would not allow this, but a few would I'm sure. Let's not also get muddled up with non-existent hands off policies too...

BTP often provide a presence at Revenue blockades (overt or covert) for this very reason, along with the fishing expedition that being stopped for fare evasion allows them to take in terms of searching the individual for contraband and checking up for outstanding warrents etc. From this point of view alone, I've heard of major drug seizures, offensive weapons (knives and guns), bail-jumpers and all sorts being lifted as a "Brucie bonus" of the Revenue operation.

Indeed, I've known revenue operations take place simply to provide a reason for BTP to "stop and search" on certain trouble trains. Once the passenger tells the guard to "F*^+ off, I don't buy tickets", the two chaps sitting down show their warrent card and the discussion continues at the next station.

To coin a phrase, "They have to be lucky all the time, we only have to be lucky once..."

They'd need far more grounds for a search than the fact that Johnny is probably known to smoke a bit of weed as he's evaded his fare. It's often an inroad to drugs arrests of course as you said, as the amount of cannabis users who don't realise just how much it smells is probably 90% of them or so...

 

[Flamingo]

I'm sure that all the experts will now attempt to pick holes in my posts. I'm just basing it on my observation and years experience of how these things work. I always like to hear how these things are being done incorrectly.

If anybody thinks that they know better, and finds themselves in the position of being stopped by a Revenue blockade, refuse to show your ticket or give a name and address, and push past. Carry an offensive weapon or small quantities of illicit substances as well, just for research purposes, of course, to get the full experience, and just remember to let us all know how the "I know my rights" defence goes...

 

[fowler9]

I'm sure that all the experts will now attempt to pick holes in my posts. I'm just basing it on my observation and years experience of how these things work. I always like to hear how these things are being done incorrectly.

If anybody thinks that they know better, and finds themselves in the position of being stopped by a Revenue blockade, refuse to show your ticket or give a name and address, and push past. Carry an offensive weapon or small quantities of illicit substances as well, just for research purposes, of course, to get the full experience, and just remember to let us all know how the "I know my rights" defence goes...

Ha ha. To be honest mate there are probably few on here, myself included, who would want to do what you have to face to face. I don't know all of the rules you do to do your job, I know the rules for my job and it is hard enough over the phone sometimes.

 

[Flamingo]

probably not an indictable offence.

That won't be known until it is investigated further. It depends on if it is a bylaw or Regulation of the railway offence, or even if it comes down to forged or altered tickets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ha ha. To be honest mate there are probably few on here, myself included, who would want to do what you have to face to face. I don't know all of the rules you do to do your job, I know the rules for my job and it is hard enough over the phone sometimes.

99% of the time it's fine (like a lot of jobs, I think)

 

[tony_mac]

That won't be known until it is investigated further. It depends on if it is a bylaw or Regulation of the railway offence, or even if it comes down to forged or altered tickets.

A Fraud case is indictable, but just about everything else will be summary only. (Even the serious fraud cases seem to be dealt with by summary trial).

Although, this is entirely academic, I doubt that even the most keen (or crazy) members of the public will attempt to arrest a passenger on a ticketing irregularity (I did once help a guard detain a fleeing ticketless passenger, but this was by standing in the doorway and not allowing him to squeeze past.)

I think at lot of people would like to see the footage resulting from plain-clothes BTP shadowing train guards, but I doubt any TOC would allow it.

 

[tony6499]

Not forgetting that lovely friendly dog sniffing round your ankles with the 2 guys in jeans and t-shirts stood by the gateline

 

[Flamingo]

Not forgetting that lovely friendly dog sniffing round your ankles with the 2 guys in jeans and t-shirts stood by the gateline

And the girl saying to one of the guys "What a lovely friendly dog" as it sits in front of her (as I once saw ).

 

[Stigy]

That won't be known until it is investigated further. It depends on if it is a bylaw or Regulation of the railway offence, or even if it comes down to forged or altered tickets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


99% of the time it's fine (like a lot of jobs, I think)

RRA offences are still summary only, meaning the only power of arrest/detention is what's written in to the legislation (under 5(2) etc). A Citizen/Any Person Arrest isn't allowed.

Sorry, I wasn't relying to nitpick....

 

[clagmonster]

I'm sure that all the experts will now attempt to pick holes in my posts. I'm just basing it on my observation and years experience of how these things work. I always like to hear how these things are being done incorrectly.

If anybody thinks that they know better, and finds themselves in the position of being stopped by a Revenue blockade, refuse to show your ticket or give a name and address, and push past. Carry an offensive weapon or small quantities of illicit substances as well, just for research purposes, of course, to get the full experience, and just remember to let us all know how the "I know my rights" defence goes...

I wonder whether these revenue blockades are set up to target specific known individuals.

On a similar note, when at Manchester Victoria with some spare time a few times fairly recently, I have exited by the sort of route described a number of times on these boards. Not once have I been asked for a ticket, which of course I possess. I genuinely wonder whether I have just not been lucky enough to be there at the same time as the revenue, or the people asked are being hand picked.

 

[Flamingo]

I wonder whether these revenue blockades are set up to target specific known individuals.

On a similar note, when at Manchester Victoria with some spare time a few times fairly recently, I have exited by the sort of route described a number of times on these boards. Not once have I been asked for a ticket, which of course I possess. I genuinely wonder whether I have just not been lucky enough to be there at the same time as the revenue, or the people asked are being hand picked.

I couldn't possibly comment