Inspector stabbed.....

[ng1980]

"Ticket inspector stabbed on C2C train from Southend to London


A ticket inspector has been stabbed on a C2C train travelling from Essex into London, prompting an investigation by British Transport Police (BTP).


The attack at East Tilbury happened on the 20:20 Southend [Central] to London Fenchurch Street service on Friday.


BTP said the inspector had asked two men without tickets, aged about 18, to leave the train. They got off, but one returned and stabbed him in the back.


The inspector was said to be in a comfortable condition in hospital.


Officers are now looking through CCTV images and are appealing to any passengers on the train who witnessed anything to contact them.

'Severely punished'

One of the suspects wore a black hooded top and the second a grey flat cap and grey top.


The police force said there had been four ticket inspectors on the service at the time of the stabbing and that they worked in pairs.


Bob Crow, general secretary of the Rail Maritime and Transport union representing many railway workers, said anyone with any information should contact police urgently.


"Once again it shows the dangers that transport staff face every day and particularly over the Christmas and new year period.


"The perpetrators of this vicious and cowardly assault must be caught and the authorities need to show that those who attack public service workers will be severely punished," he said. "

* I have read the original article, but I have not had time to read the original 90 posts. Apologies *

The ticket insector should not have got stabbed. We all have a right to do our jobs, and indeed, olur everyday life without assualt or injury.

In my work, when I am confronted by a violent situation, I call superiors or the police immediately. This is a reminder to us all to call for help (the police or our superiors) whenever we think help is needed - we cannot be have-a-go heroes!

Please ... if you are confronted at work, call the police and let them sort things out!!!

Best wishes for the stabbed guy - wishing him a good recovery and hope he has learned a lesson (call the police next time)!

 

[BestWestern]

Trying to change society through better education and being 'nice' is a great aspiration, but successive generations have now created a social underclass that I - sadly - feel is pretty much beyond help.

We need to try and work to restoring respect in the next generation, while being tough on the current generation that have no idea of the concept of responsibility and respect for authority, and other people.

There are loads of factors that play a part that need to be addressed; bad parenting (including those parents bringing up children that have no values either), the media that encourages everyone to 'do what you have to do' to get what you want - and don't let anyone stop you, the desire for material goods that a lot of people don't actually need etc.

The Tories probably created the desire to go out and get what you want (but it was just as much the fact that the late 80s and early 90s also saw mobile phones, computers, game consoles and flat-screen TVs etc coming out - so there had never been so many rather expensive, desirable, gadgets for people to want). Labour then did nothing to stop this, but rather encouraged everyone to borrow and get into debt buying all of the above things.

No one thing, or even one political party, can be blamed for breaking down society, but all of these things play a part in their own small way.

Once the law becomes insufficient to deal with problems, it's inevitable that you'll get people taking the law into their own hands. And this has been happening for ages anyway, with communities often dealing with their own problems and not bringing in the police at all.

The only way to stop people become vigilantes will be to have a legal system that is seen by the majority as being 'fit for purpose'.

Agreed, you are absolutely right. It is of course imperative to ensure that we have the guilty party, but once we do then we need far less emphasis on their 'yooman rights' and far more effort being made to punish them adequately. We have tried and tried to 'be nice' about vile people carrying out vile crimes and, unsurprisingly, it has failed miserably. It is now time that we try the more sensible approach of dishing out a punishment that fits the crime, the idea being that it might actually dissuade people from re-offending.

 

[87015]

The two arrested have been remanded in custody until a court hearing in March. They were well known to the local police by all accounts...

 

[Oswyntail]

Agreed, you are absolutely right. It is of course imperative to ensure that we have the guilty party, but once we do then we need far less emphasis on their 'yooman rights' and far more effort being made to punish them adequately. We have tried and tried to 'be nice' about vile people carrying out vile crimes and, unsurprisingly, it has failed miserably. It is now time that we try the more sensible approach of dishing out a punishment that fits the crime, the idea being that it might actually dissuade people from re-offending.

In my post, to which Jon was responding, I did not suggest we should be "nice" to offenders. I agree that punishments should be severe enough to deter, and should be rigorously enforced. But, alongside that, we have to take two approaches: education, through which everyone becomes aware of their responsibilities (as much as their rights) and the consequences of not fulfilling them; and a scrupulous adherence to correct process. I am horrified by the support for instant and violent retribution being recommended on another thread, simply because it never takes account of all the evidence. There is, and always should be, a difference between justice and vengeance.

 

[jon0844]

Education is vital, but once you concur that it's too late for someone - there has to be a line that gets crossed where it's game over, and you're no longer nice. No more 'one more chance'.

While I'd like to think that we can get the best from everyone, it's clear that this isn't the case and we've been a little too tolerant and hopeful.

I am not talking about the death penalty or beatings (which, of course, is how many people deal with problems in their community already) or anything outrageous like that - but we need to be firm and show we won't be walked over. Nobody is above the law, nor should anyone believe themselves to be so.

Stabbing someone, besides in self-defence, is crossing that line. There is no need to consider the circumstances and start to ask (as will happen) if the RPI in some way asked for it because of how he acted. Sure, you can ask if the RPI did anything to inflame the situation, but he is still the victim and nobody should placing any blame on him at all.

To be fair, I've not seen anyone do that yet (and wouldn't expect to on here) but I fear that if I looked around other forums or newspaper sites, I'd see people saying the RPI probably did something to make it happen and should perhaps leave people alone etc.

 

[Oswyntail]

.....
Stabbing someone, besides in self-defence, is crossing that line......

I would disagree even with that! How can you claim self-defence properly if you are carrying a knife that you use?

 

[Nym]

I would disagree even with that! How can you claim self-defence properly if you are carrying a knife that you use?

If you're in the kitchen.
If you carry a knife in your line of work (that I used to).
If you're in a knife shop.
If you're on your way back from fishing and happen to be carrying one.

Same as if I was on ranges and someone started charging us with a samuri blade, he'd have a rifle pointed at him and if he didn't stop there's very quickly be a 5.56mm ball in his kneecap to make him stop, that would be self defence.

 

[Flamingo]

If you're in the kitchen.
If you carry a knife in your line of work (that I used to).
If you're in a knife shop.
If you're on your way back from fishing and happen to be carrying one.

Same as if I was on ranges and someone started charging us with a samuri blade, he'd have a rifle pointed at him and if he didn't stop there's very quickly be a 5.56mm ball in his kneecap to make him stop, that would be self defence.

You shoot at the centre of the target, not something fancy!

 

[Nym]

Not if you don't WANT to kill them, if you only want to stop them, a couple of rounds into each leg is perfectly sufficent...

 

[Smudger105e]

If you're in the kitchen.
If you carry a knife in your line of work (that I used to).
If you're in a knife shop.
If you're on your way back from fishing and happen to be carrying one.

You forgot to mention turning an attacker's own weapon on them...

 

[Nym]

You forgot to mention turning an attacker's own weapon on them...

Fair point, but if it's a MoP with the weapon the're unpredictable in how they'll use it (Murphy's Law of Combat #32: Professional Soldiers and predictable, but the world is full of amateurs.) and you're potentially signing a death warrant attempting to disarm a MoP unless you've had highly advanced training on it.

PS: Law #1 is more appicable in this situation "You are not superman!"

 

[Flamingo]

Not if you don't WANT to kill them, if you only want to stop them, a couple of rounds into each leg is perfectly sufficent...

There is nothing wrong with using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, provided you have a sledgehammer, and don't care what the nut looks like afterwards! (Slim, 1944)

 

[sidmouth]

See
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-17732971

And
http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/965...after_stabbing_ticket_inspector_on_c2c_train/

"A TEENAGER who a stabbed a ticket inspector has been jailed for four years.

17-year-old Robert Culley and his brother, Charles, 19, attacked the man and a colleague when they asked them to leave a c2c train.

The teens boarded the 8.20pm Southend Central to Fenchurch Street service on Friday, December 16 without tickets.

As the train pulled into East Tilbury, an altercation between the four men broke out with one inspector being punched in the face, while Robert stabbed the man in his left armpit with the four-inch blade.

The pair - both of Darwin Road, Tilbury - were sentenced at Basildon Crown Court yesterday today with Robert, who had earlier pleaded guilty to wounding and possession of a bladed article, receiving four-year and two-year detention orders, set to run concurrently.

Charles Culley, who had pleaded guilty to common assault, was given a four-month detention and training order."

 

[brillopad]

See
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-17732971

And
http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/965...after_stabbing_ticket_inspector_on_c2c_train/

"A TEENAGER who a stabbed a ticket inspector has been jailed for four years.

17-year-old Robert Culley and his brother, Charles, 19, attacked the man and a colleague when they asked them to leave a c2c train.

The teens boarded the 8.20pm Southend Central to Fenchurch Street service on Friday, December 16 without tickets.

As the train pulled into East Tilbury, an altercation between the four men broke out with one inspector being punched in the face, while Robert stabbed the man in his left armpit with the four-inch blade.

The pair - both of Darwin Road, Tilbury - were sentenced at Basildon Crown Court yesterday today with Robert, who had earlier pleaded guilty to wounding and possession of a bladed article, receiving four-year and two-year detention orders, set to run concurrently.

Charles Culley, who had pleaded guilty to common assault, was given a four-month detention and training order."

A result I suppose but 2 years (effectively) for attempted murder is hardly sending a message.

 

[jon0844]

Oh, it sends a message.

The totally wrong one.

 

[KA4C]

A result I suppose but 2 years (effectively) for attempted murder is hardly sending a message.

Was he charged with attempted murder then? I thought it was wounding and possession of a bladed article? Courts sentence the actual offence charged, not what might have been charged

According to national sentencing guidelines, (to which sentencing courts must refer) a youth would not normally be sentenced to longer than two years detention, except in certain exceptional circumstances. To get four years on the wounding and two years concurrent on the bladed article offence is actually quite heavy sentencing for a youth. One of the principles in youth justice being not to sentence so heavily as to further criminalise the youth, so that they become institutionalised, offending becomes ingrained and they continue into adulthood as a pain to society and a cost to the tax payer. So, as well as punishment, youth sentencing leans quite heavily on rehabilitation and training of the offender

 

[jon0844]

Which is very commendable, if it wasn't for the fact that the reoffending rates are so high.

 

[KA4C]

Which is very commendable, if it wasn't for the fact that the reoffending rates are so high.

That's as maybe (and do re-offending statistics actually prove custody to be a more effective deterrent?). However, the role of the court is to sentence for the offence in front of them, based upon evidence presented to it and by reference to national guidelines.

It is the role of the government to address offending rates by whatever means they see fit

 

[Oswyntail]

Two years is a hell of a long time to a "youth"

 

[Ivo]

This is the first chance I have had to comment on this, so apologies for any drivel.

I read about this in the Echo (referenced above) back home in December and was completely appalled by it. RPIs and other inspectors are rare on c2c but on the odd occasion they do turn up something like this happens. So many people in the c2c area have no "respect" for others at all - I was assaulted by a thug aged 11 when I was 15 for simply doing a paper round, which covered his maisonette - so it is good to see Basildon CC taking this so seriously (which, to be fair, is often the case). "Soft" judges could learn a thing or two from them.

I don't know anything about this character having diabetes or similar, but that is some way short of an excuse. Would I get away with intentional wounding on account of having Asperger Syndrome, which is a far better defence than diabetes (on account of it affecting the mind)? Of course not. Would I attempt to? Ditto. More importantly though, obviously I don't know the full story with regards to the condition of the inspector and his job now, but I do of course hope he has been able to go about his duties in the four months since without difficulty.

Call this a generalisation if you will, but I would be willing to bet that these two were part of the riots back in August - even if they were part of the group that were stopped by the police (on horses) in Basildon. I would also be willing to bet that they will both offend again, probably in relation to knife crime.

Oh, and there is no excuse for carrying a knife in public, other than the absolute basic issue of using a very small blade - a penknife, if that - for the likes of cutting rope. Carrying such an object for self-defence, never mind anything else, is inexcusable.

 

[KA4C]

"Soft" judges could learn a thing or two from them

Read my post above, from what I can see, the judge not only applied sentencing guidelines correctly, looking at those guidelines, he was not soft on the offender either

What sentence would you have given and in what way would that sentence be more effective?

 

[Ivo]

Read my post above, from what I can see, the judge not only applied sentencing guidelines correctly, looking at those guidelines, he was not soft on the offender either

What sentence would you have given and in what way would that sentence be more effective?

I would have given pretty much the sentence that has been passed down - four years for a knife-related wounding is rather strong as it is (there is nothing to suggest murder was on the cards; only revenge). But we see so often that judges elsewhere often say they can't because "my hands are tied" (which may be true sometimes but far from always). My point is that Basildon seem very effective, as shown here, and that others could learn from them.

 

[Captain Chaos]

I think it's also important to remember that he would have been given a lighter sentence in light of his early guilty plea. A late as possible (like the day before in the hope that the victim refuses to give evidence at court and then pleading guilty when it looks obvious they will) or a not guilty plea would result in higher sentence. I would imagine 5 - 6 years would have been the sentence if that was the case.

 

[jon0844]

do re-offending statistics actually prove custody to be a more effective deterrent?

Quite probably not, but there's always the argument that when they're inside, they're unable to commit any more crime.

There's definitely a problem about what happens when they come back out, however long they've been inside.

I'm no expert on this and don't claim to be, nor have an alternative idea. It doesn't help if some people actually don't have a problem with going in and out of jail.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Quite probably not, but there's always the argument that when they're inside, they're unable to commit any more crime.

Which isn't true. There are a loa of crimes that you can commit, whether inside or out. Assault, battery and ABH are probably the most common.




Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk

 

[KA4C]

Quite probably not, but there's always the argument that when they're inside, they're unable to commit any more crime.

There's definitely a problem about what happens when they come back out, however long they've been inside.

I'm no expert on this and don't claim to be, nor have an alternative idea. It doesn't help if some people actually don't have a problem with going in and out of jail.

All fair comments

 

[DaveNewcastle]

There are a loa of crimes that you can commit, whether inside or out.

Indeed. I'd include running a business from 'inside' - however respectable, exploititative or downright criminal that business may be.

 

[jon0844]

Which isn't true. There are a loa of crimes that you can commit, whether inside or out. Assault, battery and ABH are probably the most common.

Yes, but I think you know what I mean. Unless they're still operating a huge organised crime ring, chances are most of their crimes aren't affecting you or me while they're inside.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Yes, but I think you know what I mean. Unless they're still operating a huge organised crime ring, chances are most of their crimes aren't affecting you or me while they're inside.

Did the inspector being stabbed affect you or me? It didn't really affect me, apart from feeling sympathetic for the inspector in question.

If by what you mean is that they cannot
commit a crime that does not affect anyone other than the criminal underworld then that is also false, ref the number of assaults on prison staff.


Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk

 

[jon0844]

Are you just trying to start an argument for the sake of it?

They can do what they like when in prison. If they're locked up, they can't affect me, you or anyone else that isn't near them (such as prison staff or other prisoners).

I didn't think I needed to add a disclaimer to my post, which was quite obvious and I even tried to clarify. I think you're being overly pedantic now.

If the person that stabbed the inspector is let out sooner rather than later and does commit more offences, could it affect you or me then perhaps? All I said is that when they're locked up, they're definitely not a problem to us.