Inspector stabbed.....

[Oswyntail]

...I think if the one in the paper who got thrown off the train manages to prosecute the guy that took him off the train, then people like the guy last night with the knife will think they can get away with causing disruption, harm or even murder without anyone stopping them....

It was almost inevitable that these two incidents would be linked in the public mind, but they are quite different, really. This chap has gone out of his way to use potentially lethal violence, and must be taken and tried. Carrying the knife, he was already thinking he could get away with using it. I doubt his opinion would be swayed by a minor incident in Scotland

 

[ralphchadkirk]

True, but you are not suggesting that (in a case where a person has a mental illness) they are left completely off the hook, with "insanity" being used as a defense? I know nothing about these matters, so would be interested to know.

Even if a person has/had a mental illness when they stabbed someone, they should still be "behind bars" (aka. the mental illness section of a hospital!) as they pose a real threat to the public.

If insanity is successful they receive the special verdict of Not Guilty by reason of Insanity. The Judge then has then has the option impose a hospital order, a restriction order, a supervision and treatment order, or an absolute discharge. If they go to hospital then they are there until they are deemed healthy enough to release.

 

[BrianTheLion]

GBH, Wounding with intent, etc...

Whatever people in the legal system want to categorise this cowardly act as the fact of the matter is that this nation we live in needs to change, and change quickly. The government can launch as many initiatives as they want but until they change the actual law and how weapons are sold then we're all going to have to live in fear.

Did you know it's legal to own a samurai sword if it's for "ornamental purposes"? What's to stop someone breaking into your house in the middle of the night and either stealing the sword or heaven forbid attack you with it if you challenge them?

This story just goes to show that no matter how many people are around, no matter whether it's in broad daylight or not, or whether CCTV is present, these maniacs just don't care.

Here we have a public service worker, just going about his duties, enforcing company policy and for what? So he can spend some time in hospital before christmas.

If the fare dodger in Scotland get compensation for being thrown off the train then this inspector deserves at least quadruple the compensation for being the target of attempted murder.

 

[Chapeltom]

Do we have to have a debate over insanity as a defence when 99% of the time you can guarantee a criminal isn't going to be insane/mentally ill? Why make such a dramatic fuss over it? Get real please.

The point of this thread is an employee of the railway has been stabbed in his ticket collecting duties, there is no reason whatsoever why these thugs shouldn't be taken to court and sentenced to years in prison, yes YEARSto all those die-hard liberals and banned from public transport as a condition of their licence when they return to society. They are animals.

Disgrace incident and I hope the person gets better soon.

 

[Flamingo]

Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

'nuff said.

 

[142094]

Although quite uncommon for staff to be assaulted in such as serious way as this, but day in and day out there will be staff who are either verbally or physically abused which never is reported, apart from perhaps in yearly statistics.

Hopefully BTP will catch them quickly.

As an aside, the CCTV image isn't that great (could have been blown up I suppose), and in this day and age where even mobiles have very good cameras, I'm constantly surprised by the poor-quality images from CCTV that are shown.

 

[Laryk]

As an aside, the CCTV image isn't that great (could have been blown up I suppose), and in this day and age where even mobiles have very good cameras, I'm constantly surprised by the poor-quality images from CCTV that are shown.

The problem is often storage rather than camera quality. 12 hours of high resolution video from just a handful of CCTV cameras would take up many, many gigabytes. Having said that, there is a happy medium between the quality of CCTV we are used to and HD video.

 

[455driver]

Wishing the Conductor a speedy recovery.

After reading this thread how can people excuse a person who has been asked to get off a train and has done so but then goes up behind somebody and stabs them in the back, how the hell can that be excused. The thug wasnt even man enough to face his victim.
The fact that he went for his victim AFTER the event of being removed from the train (and stabbing him in the back) for me sounds like attempted murder, it wasnt like he lashed out during an altercation, he purposefully went towards his victim with the intent of stabbing him.

 

[142094]

The problem is often storage rather than camera quality. 12 hours of high resolution video from just a handful of CCTV cameras would take up many, many gigabytes. Having said that, there is a happy medium between the quality of CCTV we are used to and HD video.

I could have understood that in the past but storage these days isn't that expensive (e.g look at the price you pay for something like a 1TB external hard-drive). Think it is probably more the fact that technology is getting better but we still have very old CCTV systems in place, which are not exactly useful.

 

[the sniper]

I think if the one in the paper who got thrown off the train manages to prosecute the guy that took him off the train, then people like the guy last night with the knife will think they can get away with causing disruption, harm or even murder without anyone stopping them.

Melodramatic, much?

Its a horrible fact of life these days.

Tell that to the many railwaymen who were attacked and even killed in the line of their duty prior to the Daily Mail officially declaring Britain to be 'broken'.

Did you know it's legal to own a samurai sword if it's for "ornamental purposes"? What's to stop someone breaking into your house in the middle of the night and either stealing the sword or heaven forbid attack you with it if you challenge them?

What relevance does this have to the poor Conductor's situation?

How many people every year are attacked by samurai sword?

As an aside, the CCTV image isn't that great (could have been blown up I suppose), and in this day and age where even mobiles have very good cameras, I'm constantly surprised by the poor-quality images from CCTV that are shown.

Think it is probably more the fact that technology is getting better but we still have very old CCTV systems in place, which are not exactly useful.

Cost. New CCTV system don't come cheap.

As I said in the other thread, here's wishing the Conductor a speedy recovery. Thanks to the CCTV, I'm quite confident that they'll be caught. They're probably known by their local constabulary already...

 

[bailey65]

If you violently assault someone you should be behind bars for 10 years minimum either in a prison or a nut house it is unacceptable and there are no excuses so people should not try to make any.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I could have understood that in the past but storage these days isn't that expensive (e.g look at the price you pay for something like a 1TB external hard-drive). Think it is probably more the fact that technology is getting better but we still have very old CCTV systems in place, which are not exactly useful.

Maybe so, but the fact is that a lot of existing CCTV systems are relatively old and some even still use video tapes, though due to the impracticability of cycling tapes, they have simply fallen into disuse. A certain Local Authority was asked in a FoI request how many of its CCTV cameras operating in public area were working and monitored. The answer was 100%. However, the facts are otherwise - by a considerable number.

Similarly, a certain TOC made a minor publicity boast about their installation of CCTV systems on board. However, they remained unused for many many months as they had, er, 'forgotten' to apply for the necessary Licence to record public images.

I have worked with Police Investigators on a few occasions who wish access to CCTV images recorded by equipment on (or outside) private property, usually commercial property. The image quality from the cameras has been fine, but the installers, having to make do with a customer only paying for a few tens of GBs storeage, is compressed so much that stored images are unusuable for identifying faces, number-plates, clothing etc.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Wishing the Conductor a speedy recovery.

After reading this thread how can people excuse a person who has been asked to get off a train and has done so but then goes up behind somebody and stabs them in the back, how the hell can that be excused. The thug wasnt even man enough to face his victim.
The fact that he went for his victim AFTER the event of being removed from the train (and stabbing him in the back) for me sounds like attempted murder, it wasnt like he lashed out during an altercation, he purposefully went towards his victim with the intent of stabbing him.

Nobody has tried to excuse him. I'm merely pointing out that this is for the Court to decide and right wing nonsense about stringing them up or banging them up does not help the process of Law for the defendant or the victim.

 

[O L Leigh]

I'm slightly stunned that a thread about an attack like this contains more about the relative merits of CCTV systems than good wishes for the colleague who has just suffered a horrible attack.

Ralph is correct in that there is a process of law to follow. The CCTV trail will be sufficient for the BTP/Essex Police to track and identify the culprits (I expect they are probably already known to them) and the appropriate action will be taken against them. As with all media stories I expect that there is still more to come on this one which I'm sure the courts will take into consideration, such as whether or not this pair of RPIs were aware that these lowlifes were armed.

However, I would like to go on record in support of the RPIs on that train. I've already heard stories from our RPIs about toerags showing knives in lieu of tickets, and this is something that I do not believe should be tolerated. It's too easy for them to get into the habit of doing this and thinking they can get away with it. Confronting an armed passenger and ejecting them from the train is not how I would deal with it, but as I said these RPIs may not have known that at the time.

All the discussion about defence strategies against these charges are matters for the courts. Lets wait and see what happens when the case goes to trial. Likewise, control over the availability of samurai swords won't help because these people don't carry them. Instead they use kitchen knives which are readily available in every home in the UK.

I wish my colleague well for a full and speedy recovery and hope that these lowlifes are caught quickly.

O L Leigh

 

[Laryk]

I'm slightly stunned that a thread about an attack like this contains more about the relative merits of CCTV systems than good wishes for the colleague who has just suffered a horrible attack.

With the greatest of respect - and I really do mean that - while he is one of your colleagues, to many people on this forum he is not. I have no objection to people posting their concern regarding the man's health and wishing him a speedy recovery, personally I don't think it is necessary for every contributor to post his/her concerns. Last I heard he is being discharged from hospital (tomorrow?) Whilst I understand that he may quite possibly be mentally injured as well as physically, I am reassured that he had a relatively minor wound and he is recovering well. (I am not in any way suggesting that because his wounds aren't life threatening it affects the seriousness of the crime).
For these reasons I didn't think it necessary to comment on his condition. I considered the point about quality of CCTV systems to be valid and relevant to the thread, and worth exploring further. After all, the question [Edit: It wasn't a question] was about CCTV systems in general, and who knows how many cases remain unsolved due to the lack of clear CCTV? (Actually, I am sure someone will tell me the precise number, such is the knowledge of people on this forum). By the way - I'm not ranting or trolling. I'm not angry, and I'm certainly not trying to start an argument. I hope I haven't offended you.

 

[O L Leigh]

If you wish. I'm just expressing my view, that's all.

I was shocked to hear about this attack on the news and reviewed this thread with rising incredulity. I had hoped to see more support for this guy and was just a bit stunned by the turn of the discussion.

O L Leigh

 

[brillopad]

The problem is often storage rather than camera quality. 12 hours of high resolution video from just a handful of CCTV cameras would take up many, many gigabytes. Having said that, there is a happy medium between the quality of CCTV we are used to and HD video.

Always a compromise - I record 12 cameras via a multiplexer and can get a weeks worth of video from one DVR - it's done like this so the staff can get immediate simple and quick access to video if summat happens - there is not the space/time/money for individual recorders.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Just out of interest does the BTP use hand held metal detectors on the C2C? Of course they don't have a 100% success rate but it would certainly be a step in the right direction. Irrespective of the mental state of the attacker it’s important that he is caught and that of course the RPI makes a full and speedy recovery.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Sorry, I have been away for much of today and have only just seen this thread. The only point that I will make is that I wish a speedy recovery to the member of the train staff, as he has been the injured party in this sorry affair.

 

[313103]

I had hoped to see more support for this guy and was just a bit stunned by the turn of the discussion.

O L Leigh

That my dear friend is something your not going to get, more will be made out of our fellow colleague on Scotrail and what he did wrong (in there eyes) then this person who was physically assaulted at work. Me and you are not going to change their view. As i mentioned earlier in the thread if the thing had been viewed on you tube we could see as to whether the member of staff was indeed partially to blame for his stabbing. It appaers it something people dont wish to comment on, but are quite to when the member of staff is percieved to be in the wrong.

Dont hold out for much.

 

[sunday]

Wishing a speedy recovery to the member of staff involved, nobody deserves that for just doing their job wherever they may work. Hope they catch those responsible and throw the book at them.

I will say though that I am slightly saddened by the posts in this thread that seem to be concerned merely with making snide remarks with regards to unrelated incidents. The level of reactionary, irrelevant stuff based on a tenuous link seems at best ill-informed. The sort of thing you'd expect from the tabloids this forum is always so quick to lambaste.

 

[the sniper]

I will say though that I am slightly saddened by the posts in this thread that seem to be concerned merely with making snide remarks with regards to unrelated incidents. The level of reactionary, irrelevant stuff based on a tenuous link seems at best ill-informed. The sort of thing you'd expect from the tabloids this forum is always so quick to lambaste.

Well said. I thought it odd that no one had raised this before, yet the CCTV discussion was deemed morally wrong.

 

[O L Leigh]

I'm confused. I've read these last two posts over and over and genuinely don't understand what is being said. What snide remarks about which unrelated incidents?

The bit I do understand is in relation to the CCTV discussion. I don't believe I deemed it "morally wrong" as I was simply giving my own opinion. If you wish to discuss it you may do so by all means. I just happen to feel it is not necessarily in the best taste under the circumstances. Obviously there is a topic of discussion there, but couldn't it go into it's own thread...?

O L Leigh

 

[the sniper]

I'm confused. I've read these last two posts over and over and genuinely don't understand what is being said. What snide remarks about which unrelated incidents?

No, snide isn't really the word to describe it. Personally though I felt that some of the silly comments in this thread with people expressing their grievances with another case were fairly unnecessary and irrelevant here. It's quite obvious that no one will be making excuses like those in this more serious, unfortunate and really quite different case. They're not even overly relevant to the Scottish case...

It was just a very tabloidy way to approach this subject, I felt. I assumed it was the irrelevant comment that Greenback referred to on behalf on the moderation team? Maybe I'm mistaken though, as nights are messing with my mind.

 

[island]

Just out of interest does the BTP use hand held metal detectors on the C2C? Of course they don't have a 100% success rate but it would certainly be a step in the right direction. Irrespective of the mental state of the attacker it’s important that he is caught and that of course the RPI makes a full and speedy recovery.

I've never seen a policeman use a hand-held metal detector anywhere.

 

[142094]

Hopefully my comment on CCTV hasn't been taken out of context, and I do wish the conductor well in his recovery. My main point is that CCTV is installed on stations and trains to great fanfare, yet when an incident does happen the quality of the image is generally poor (for whatever reason, discuss in a different thread if someone wants). I want to see the person(s) responsible brought before the courts as much as anyone, and want to see a conviction. I certainly wouldn't want to see someone get away with this crime due to a lack of evidence, when CCTV was available.

 

[jon0844]

Image sensors are incredibly cheap, and being able to compress 720 or 1080p video isn't hard either - many smartphones do it this as a matter of course, while managing to do other things in the background.

I am sure a CCTV camera could capture full HD (or even higher, which would probably be good for security purposes - allowing you to zoom in Blade Runner style) and compress it with H.264 or whatever - and storage is also dirt cheap. I won't do the maths, but if you had 32, 64 or 128GB of SSD storage then you'd be capturing a LOT of data before needing to overwrite it.

You wouldn't necessarily need to capture at 30 or 60fps, so cut the frame rate and you'd get even more again. Finally, on a train or bus where I believe cameras can be remotely viewed, the same system could easily downscale on the fly to reduce the necessary bandwidth to transmit HD video content.

Any company with outdated CCTV that can't capture clear images should be forced to replace it, as we've ended up relying on CCTV at the expense of other more expensive options (like more staff) so we need it to work properly.

 

[142094]

Any company with outdated CCTV that can't capture clear images should be forced to replace it, as we've ended up relying on CCTV at the expense of other more expensive options (like more staff) so we need it to work properly.

This might be the crux of the problem - do people think CCTV should be the best it can be (e.g. is there any point in having a crap CCTV system or non at all). Have we come to rely more on CCTV rather than staff, as perhaps we used to?

 

[jopsuk]

The CCTV on the 379s is veru high quality; unfortunately BTP have had cause to release photos to the press following sexual assault. But make everyone upgrade their existing systems? Maybe at the next heavy overhaul, but the time and money to replace all systems would be huge.

 

[GB]

The only link this has to the scottish incident is to highlight why ordinary members of public shouldn't get involved in such circumstances.

As for this one, wishing the guard well and no one should have to put up with this sort of thing at work.