Inner South London Line Class 456s

[TheJRB]

When the Inner South London line becomes part of London Overground's East London Line (the length between Queens Road Peckham and Wandsworth Road) next year, it looks as though most Southern services will be removed, partly to divert traffic for construction works at London Bridge.

This must surely mean a much smaller demand for the Class 456 fleet. Does anybody know if this is true and if so what will happen these trains?

 

[JKJimar53]

I think they will go to South West Trains.

 

[tbtc]

What else (if anything) are they used on?

 

[TheJRB]

I think they will go to South West Trains.

I've looked this up and this seems to have been planned for a couple of years. Is this move scheduled to happen next year now or is nothing official yet?
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What else (if anything) are they used on?

Well they're on the Outer South London Line too, I believe, although I don't know if these services will be reduced too.

 

[Orange Box]

What else (if anything) are they used on?

Loads of South London stuff out of London Bridge and Victoria, the Victoria-London Bridge via Peckham Rye only uses two units for most of the day so is pretty much insignificant in the overall picture.

 

[tbtc]

Cheers for the answers.

These units have always struck me as a little odd - two coach trains with no corridor connections. Whilst that's normal outside London, it's quite a constrast to the eight/ten/twelve coach pairings you get on some London lines.

 

[jopsuk]

Never quite understood it either- or why Southern plated up their 455s. Southeastern have 466s, which run on London services, that are two-car, no connector, as well

 

[tbtc]

Never quite understood it either- or why Southern plated up their 455s. Southeastern have 466s, which run on London services, that are two-car, no connector, as well

Good point about the 466s too (sorry for going off topic, but what are these used on?)

 

[OxtedL]

466s are on the Bromley North and Medway Valley (small number of diagrams), as well as extending a large number of metro services in the peaks.

 

[thefab444]

466s are on the Bromley North and Medway Valley (small number of diagrams), as well as extending a large number of metro services in the peaks.

Bromley North is one diagram, Sheerness is two, Medway Valley is three.

 

[swt_passenger]

I've looked this up and this seems to have been planned for a couple of years. Is this move scheduled to happen next year now or is nothing official yet?

I think 'planned' is the wrong word.

IIRC it first came up as a 'what if' in Modern Railways, as a partial solution to lengthening SWT inner suburban services. But it has a couple of significant problems, firstly it doesn't provide enough carriages - only 48 when more like 90 are needed, and the SWT area platform lengthening still requires a fairly significant number of station calls to use SDO. A further (relatively minor) point is that SWT's guards usually need to be able to move through the trains.

So it is really no more a planned move than the suggestion to produce a re-engineered 458/460 fleet to make 5 car units.

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Never quite understood it either- or why Southern plated up their 455s.

I heard some while back that they felt the doorway was the easiest (or most economical) position to use for the retrofitted cab aircon.

 

[pendolino]

I heard some while back that they felt the doorway was the easiest (or most economical) position to use for the retrofitted cab aircon.

Yes, the aircon unit sits there on a 455. And very welcome it is too on a day like today (if a little noisy).
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What else (if anything) are they used on?

They can be used on pretty much anything that a 455 can be used on (with a few exceptions). In fact a two car on its own is much less common than a 456 in multiple with another 456 or a 455. Single 2 cars are diagrammed on South Londons and Tattenham shuttles, but I can't recall having one on its own to anywhere else.

 

[westcoaster]

See 2 car workings out to Epsom and dorking.

 

[ushawk]

Would either be added to SWT's 455 or just used to strengthen other Southern Metro services which are supposed to be made 10 coaches.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

See 2 car workings out to Epsom and dorking.

We also get 6 car 456 works to Epsom!

Yes, you read that right - three of the two car units stuck together instead of one plus a 455.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Both the 456 and 466 replaced 2EPBs, which again ran either singally on a few services, or were used to strengthen 4EPBs.

 

[Anon Mouse]

If SWT got them they could run them doubled up on the Lymington Branch?

 

[Ivo]

Please tell me that isn't serious! If that option was taken up I would be horrified. You can't go from a 421 to a 456! :cry:

 

[Anon Mouse]

Please tell me that isn't serious! If that option was taken up I would be horrified. You can't go from a 421 to a 456! :cry:

But, they are EMU's and if used on the Lymington's they would replace the ludicrious used of 15X's on an electrified line and use the diesel's to strengthen 159's. I know there is no 1st class on a 456, but do many people actually use the 1st class on a 10min journey?

 

[TheJRB]

I think 'planned' is the wrong word.

IIRC it first came up as a 'what if' in Modern Railways, as a partial solution to lengthening SWT inner suburban services. But it has a couple of significant problems, firstly it doesn't provide enough carriages - only 48 when more like 90 are needed, and the SWT area platform lengthening still requires a fairly significant number of station calls to use SDO. A further (relatively minor) point is that SWT's guards usually need to be able to move through the trains.

So it is really no more a planned move than the suggestion to produce a re-engineered 458/460 fleet to make 5 car units.

Thanks for the information. Does this mean that Southern will keep the 456s for the foreseeable future but just on other routes when the Inner South London Line goes?

 

[Southern]

What about the East/West Coastway? 2x2 456 replaces 377/3, which then transfers to South London to strengthen those services. Shame they couldn't work with the 313's, boost some Coastway workings up from 3 to 5 carriages. Then again, do these routes need any extra capacity? The Brighton - Ashford service always seems to be rammed from experience, not sure about services out to Worthing and beyond.

 

[ushawk]

They did plan to split the Brighton to Ashford service into 2 (Brighton/Eastbourne and Eastbourne/Ashford cross platform at Eastbourne) but Southern decided not to. And after the reaction the 313's recieved when they were put down on Coastway, probably not the best idea - that and im unsure if 456's can actually couple to 313's. I think they should stay in the London area, as thats where their more suitable.

 

[Fincra5]

They did plan to split the Brighton to Ashford service into 2 (Brighton/Eastbourne and Eastbourne/Ashford cross platform at Eastbourne) but Southern decided not to. And after the reaction the 313's recieved when they were put down on Coastway, probably not the best idea - that and im unsure if 456's can actually couple to 313's. I think they should stay in the London area, as thats where their more suitable.

I think they have different couplings. 313 has an all in 1 job, where as 456s have cable connections all over the place.

 

[OxtedL]

I'm not convinced the cables are still used...?

 

[junglejames]

If SWT got them they could run them doubled up on the Lymington Branch?

Thats actually a good idea. Dont they use 450s on the Lymington sometimes as well? They would certainly be a step up from 450s.
There is no point in running diesels down to Lymington. That is the daftest idea going.
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They did plan to split the Brighton to Ashford service into 2 (Brighton/Eastbourne and Eastbourne/Ashford cross platform at Eastbourne) but Southern decided not to. And after the reaction the 313's recieved when they were put down on Coastway, probably not the best idea - that and im unsure if 456's can actually couple to 313's. I think they should stay in the London area, as thats where their more suitable.

Ashford to Hastings should be electrified, then put 456s onto that run. A nicely refurbished 456 would work quite well. The turbostars can then head up north and increase capacity up there.

 

[ushawk]

It could work, but locals would probably be annoyed about it and they will probably be near the end of their lives by the time it gets electrified, even if it does get electrified.

Just increase capacity on the Ashford services by using 377s when electrified.

 

[TheJRB]

Ashford to Hastings should be electrified, then put 456s onto that run. A nicely refurbished 456 would work quite well. The turbostars can then head up north and increase capacity up there.

If only Network Rail would agree! They claim however in the Route Utilisation Strategy that there is not enough demand for extra services or dual tracking and they say that electrification is not necessary as "the diesel service on the “Marshlink” route has acceleration characteristics close to those of an electric train."

 

[junglejames]

If only Network Rail would agree! They claim however in the Route Utilisation Strategy that there is not enough demand for extra services or dual tracking and they say that electrification is not necessary as "the diesel service on the “Marshlink” route has acceleration characteristics close to those of an electric train."

Just an excuse for not doing it. Who cares about whether acceleration is much better or not. Its the fact it will be quieter, and more eco friendly. Just think of that MP at Brighton. She must be horrified when she sees this great big ugly dirty diesel train coming into the station!!!!

1 train an hour is probably enough for now, but no harm in electrification.
Saying that though. If you did increase the service, i reckon you may see passenger numbers increase. It must be a very handy service for those that live in the villages along the route. Buses arent exactly brilliant around there.
Id certainly see how plausible it was to double track it to Hastings.
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It could work, but locals would probably be annoyed about it and they will probably be near the end of their lives by the time it gets electrified, even if it does get electrified.

Just increase capacity on the Ashford services by using 377s when electrified.

Yeah sorry, i was more thinking if the line was getting electrified right now, which of course, it isnt!

 

[TheJRB]

Just an excuse for not doing it. Who cares about whether acceleration is much better or not. Its the fact it will be quieter, and more eco friendly. Just think of that MP at Brighton. She must be horrified when she sees this great big ugly dirty diesel train coming into the station!!!!

1 train an hour is probably enough for now, but no harm in electrification.
Saying that though. If you did increase the service, i reckon you may see passenger numbers increase. It must be a very handy service for those that live in the villages along the route. Buses arent exactly brilliant around there.
Id certainly see how plausible it was to double track it to Hastings.

Exactly! Having travelled from Ashford to Hastings off peak quite recently, I can say that even off peak these services are well used. Although indeed, perhaps 1 tph is enough for now, that can be blamed mostly on the single line from Appledore. We could do with another station to serve the south of Ashford with the new housing, but that's a whole other discussion...

Will Marshlink electrification ever happen? I seriously doubt it at the moment. I'd love to be proven wrong though.

 

[OxtedL]

We're talking about electrifying Southern everywhere at the moment...never felt more loved .

I think you could only possibly currently justify electrifying the marshlink to get HS to Hastings.

That said it would be a quick way to eliminate 5 2-car diesel diagrams...