Information for GTR Southern passengers during strike (no DOO discussion)

[Deepgreen]

Jan 26.

No season ticket rebate as yet.

Me neither - however, this is from the Southern site today (my emboldening):

"9. What do I need to do?
Initially you don’t need to do anything until you are prompted by an email (or a letter in some cases) advising that you are entitled to compensation, the value of the compensation and next steps. Automatically generated emails will be sent out between mid-January and the beginning of February 2017. You will then need to click on the link to accept the compensation value and select your preferred method of payment. If you receive a letter, it will direct you to a website address to complete your compensation claim."

 

[infobleep]

Well, I'm not envious of the delays!

Perhaps if you didn't live on the Southern route you might be! After all you wouldn't get delay repay money. Lol.

 

[infobleep]

Well done!

I suspect that the CJ delay was another in the rapidly-growing number caused by DOO trains not being dispatched efficiently. I am seeing many instances of staff not being at the front of the train in time, either through being busy on other duties or simply not knowing which trains require them. It happened with my train from Redhill this morning - the already-late 0831 was kept waiting for a couple of minutes after it was ready to leave while the platform staff went to the front.

DOO seems to be causing a large amount of fairly minor delays, which can easily then escalate into significant ones. Still, it's all well worth it!

We are told doors will close 30 seconds prior to departure and we should arrive in good time. Staff also need to be in the right place in good time.

It's a collective responsibility in that respect, in trying and ensure trains leave on time.

 

[Deepgreen]

We are told doors will close 30 seconds prior to departure and we should arrive in good time. Staff also need to be in the right place in good time.

It's a collective responsibility in that respect, in trying and ensure trains leave on time.

Exactly. It doesn't say how late that departure will be, though!

 

[infobleep]

Exactly. It doesn't say how late that departure will be, though!

True. They don't always wait until 30 seconds after the doors have closed before leaving either!

 

[tsr]

True. They don't always wait until 30 seconds after the doors have closed before leaving either!

That's in accordance with staff training. You don't hang around - as soon it's safe to depart, ie. the train safety check is complete and any signal remains correctly set, off you go. This reduces the risk from people needlessly having more time to be able to come into contact with a train which is about to move.

For the most part, only at smaller stations and/or with shorter formations would the policy of doors closing 30 seconds prior to departure result in a train leaving more than a few seconds prior to reaching booked time. Often it still doesn't result in departure on the nail of minute x + 0 seconds. On certain stock it is nigh on impossible unless nobody's opened any doors (eg. 442s).

 

[infobleep]

That's in accordance with staff training. You don't hang around - as soon it's safe to depart, ie. the train safety check is complete and any signal remains correctly set, off you go. This reduces the risk from people needlessly having more time to be able to come into contact with a train which is about to move.

For the most part, only at smaller stations and/or with shorter formations would the policy of doors closing 30 seconds prior to departure result in a train leaving more than a few seconds prior to reaching booked time. Often it still doesn't result in departure on the nail of minute x + 0 seconds. On certain stock it is nigh on impossible unless nobody's opened any doors (eg. 442s).

Thanks for that. That makes sense.

The delays on Southern do seem to be greater than on South H West Trains. I don't know if that is due to the infrastructure.

South West Trains have got better at informing customers during disruption. Not sure if Southern have.

 

[infobleep]

Today I got on the Shepberds Bush train and as I got on they announced the calling points. It had just under a minute before it was due to leave.

Then it sat there. Eventually I looked out and saw a red signal. It left 5 minutes late. It was the 8.40.

I assume there is a flat junction ahead and it had to wait for other trains to pass. We were on platform 5.

What I should have done was got a slightly earlier train to East Croydon and walked to West Croydon station. Although it doesn't show up on the online journey planner, there is a journey that is doable if you walk between East and West Croydon. One has 17 minutes to make the journey if everything is on time. Not sure why 17 minutes is considered too short.

Now on another train that is also late.

 

[Deepgreen]

Today I got on the Shepberds Bush train and as I got on they announced the calling points. It had just under a minute before it was due to leave.

Then it sat there. Eventually I looked out and saw a red signal. It left 5 minutes late. It was the 8.40.

I assume there is a flat junction ahead and it had to wait for other trains to pass. We were on platform 5.

What I should have done was got a slightly earlier train to East Croydon and walked to West Croydon station. Although it doesn't show up on the online journey planner, there is a journey that is doable if you walk between East and West Croydon. One has 17 minutes to make the journey if everything is on time. Not sure why 17 minutes is considered too short.

Now on another train that is also late.

Really not sure what the point is here.

 

[infobleep]

Really not sure what the point is here.

It's just anodoatial evidence of not being able to keep to the timetable and a guess at the reasons why.

 

[RichardKing]

Has anyone else noticed that Southern's performance has (generally) not been so bad since last Tuesday (interestingly, when the full timetable was reintroduced)? I can't speak for everyone, but on my route (East Coastway), we haven't had this sort of good service for bloody ages!
Not having a complete meltdown for a week might seem normal for customers of other industries (or even of other TOCs), but for people who are finely tuned to the joys of GTR, this is quite an achievement! Despite this, there will always be certain trains that encounter delays/trains that are perpetually packed.

I didn't think I'd see the Southern website without an 'important message' notification again

 

[Hophead]

Has anyone else noticed that Southern's performance has (generally) not been so bad since last Tuesday (interestingly, when the full timetable was reintroduced)? I can't speak for everyone, but on my route (East Coastway), we haven't had this sort of good service for bloody ages!
Not having a complete meltdown for a week might seem normal for customers other industries (or even of other TOCs), but for people who are finely tuned to the joys of GTR, this is quite an achievement! Despite this, there will always be certain trains that encounter delays/trains that are perpetually packed.

I didn't think I'd see the Southern website without an 'important message' notification again

Not me: at least one delayed trip each day Tuesday - Friday, and a 15-29 minutes Delay Repay claim sent in. Better today, though, although plenty of cancellations on the West Coastway.

 

[30909]

Has anyone else noticed that Southern's performance has (generally) not been so bad since last Tuesday (interestingly, when the full timetable was reintroduced)? I can't speak for everyone, but on my route (East Coastway), we haven't had this sort of good service for bloody ages!
Not having a complete meltdown for a week might seem normal for customers other industries (or even of other TOCs), but for people who are finely tuned to the joys of GTR, this is quite an achievement! Despite this, there will always be certain trains that encounter delays/trains that are perpetually packed.

I didn't think I'd see the Southern website without an 'important message' notification again

Cynically, I wonder if "staff shortages" AKA Drivers not working rest days and or overtime, has significantly reduced while they attempt to make up the lost income due to strike action. I would not condemn this but imagine it's a temporary, beneficial contributory factor.

 

[RichardKing]

Not me: at least one delayed trip each day Tuesday - Friday, and a 15-29 minutes Delay Repay claim sent in. Better today, though, although plenty of cancellations on the West Coastway.

Ah...I think the last year has made me excited about being delayed by only 15-29 minutes! Although, as I say, it's been even better than that, for me at least, over the past 7 days...something that unnerves me deeply

 

[RichardKing]

Cynically, I wonder if "staff shortages" AKA Drivers not working rest days and or overtime, has significantly reduced while they attempt to make up the lost income due to strike action. I would not condemn this but imagine it's a temporary, beneficial contributory factor.

I certainly wouldn't blame them for doing this and would probably do the same in their shoes.

The lack of major infrastructure issues over the past 7 days also surprises me (although, I know that isn't relevant to the subject of this thread, so I'll leave that there).

 

[sarahj]

Don't worry, some trains out there are still rubbish.
My 442 from London Bridge to EBN, left about 1 late, shot through the new underpass, then got signal checked, so 3 late at Croydon. A punter then tried to board at Bridges just as the doors were shutting, whistles and buzzer meaning nothing. So foot trapped.* Another 2 mins lost, so 7 late into Lewes, punters to Seaford lost their connection (it's only 4 min, so iffy at the best of times), and punters at Hampden park lost their connection.

* silly me pushed the wrong button on the PA asking the driver to re-open the doors, Doh!!!. He heard me anyway, but so did the whole train.

 

[RichardKing]

Don't worry, some trains out there are still rubbish.
My 442 from London Bridge to EBN, left about 1 late, shot through the new underpass, then got signal checked, so 3 late at Croydon. A punter then tried to board at Bridges just as the doors were shutting, whistles and buzzer meaning nothing. So foot trapped.* Another 2 mins lost, so 7 late into Lewes, punters to Seaford lost their connection (it's only 4 min, so iffy at the best of times), and punters at Hampden park lost their connection.

* silly me pushed the wrong button on the PA asking the driver to re-open the doors, Doh!!!. He heard me anyway, but so did the whole train.

Well, you'll never get rid of customer stupidity (and that's coming from a customer!).
It's a good job you were there to spot it, Sarah! (I'll leave that there...)

I think I've only known 1F83 to arrive on time at Eastbourne once before.

 

[Chrisgr31]

There were a number of cancellations and short forms today due to driver shortage. I suspect there will be a steady increase in them over the coming weeks as drivers no longer want to work as much overtime and the rosterers can no longer fiddle the books!

 

[Deepgreen]

Has anyone else noticed that Southern's performance has (generally) not been so bad since last Tuesday (interestingly, when the full timetable was reintroduced)? I can't speak for everyone, but on my route (East Coastway), we haven't had this sort of good service for bloody ages!
Not having a complete meltdown for a week might seem normal for customers of other industries (or even of other TOCs), but for people who are finely tuned to the joys of GTR, this is quite an achievement! Despite this, there will always be certain trains that encounter delays/trains that are perpetually packed.

I didn't think I'd see the Southern website without an 'important message' notification again

It's still been poor for the Redhill route, with many cancellations, especially on the Tonbridge line. Train crew shortages are now apparently affecting SE as well as Southern. Meanwhile Thameslink also now apparently lacks enough drivers on Sundays. Is there an exodus of staff?

My 0831 Redhill to Victoria was again cancelled today. The following 0840 (to London Bridge) lost ten minutes en route).

 

[Deepgreen]

I was unimpressed last evening when at least two consecutive late-running Victoria trains from Redhill had all their intermediate stops removed (one train was only about eight minutes late!), namely Merstham, Couldson South, Purley, East Croydon and Clapham Junction. It seems to be far too easy to do this for quite minor delays.

 

[physics34]

There were a number of cancellations and short forms today due to driver shortage. I suspect there will be a steady increase in them over the coming weeks as drivers no longer want to work as much overtime and the rosterers can no longer fiddle the books!

new drivers also not signing enough routes, due to them being needed for the routes they sign so no time for route learning. Also not enough driving instructors. Its a mess.

 

[Deepgreen]

Not a strike-related issue, but this seems to be the best thread - the power supply failure between Clapham Junction and Victoria has led to serious disruption. However, Southern's web site claims that all routes involved have 'Major Disruption' except GX, which is shown with 'Minor Disruption'. This claim seems at odds with the fact that multiple GX trains have been cancelled this morning - "minor" disruption?!

 

[sarahj]

Hearing of an issue with a gatex at Brighton this afternoon which might cause some issues. Further info poss to follow.

 

[swt class 450]

Don't worry, some trains out there are still rubbish.
My 442 from London Bridge to EBN, left about 1 late, shot through the new underpass, then got signal checked, so 3 late at Croydon. A punter then tried to board at Bridges just as the doors were shutting, whistles and buzzer meaning nothing. So foot trapped.* Another 2 mins lost, so 7 late into Lewes, punters to Seaford lost their connection (it's only 4 min, so iffy at the best of times), and punters at Hampden park lost their connection.

* silly me pushed the wrong button on the PA asking the driver to re-open the doors, Doh!!!. He heard me anyway, but so did the whole train.

There always seems to be passengers rushing to board the train when the doors are closing! Out of interest are Southern Guards not allowed to reopen the doors themselves on 442s?

 

[tsr]

Hearing of an issue with a gatex at Brighton this afternoon which might cause some issues. Further info poss to follow.

Haven't been forwarded any info to pass to customers so likewise won't comment publicly on what's happened ("operating incident" will do) but I think the maximum disruption now should be a few short formations. Everything seems to have reopened.

 

[Taunton]

My 442 from London Bridge to EBN, left about 1 late, shot through the new underpass, then got signal checked, so 3 late at Croydon. A punter then tried to board at Bridges just as the doors were shutting, whistles and buzzer meaning nothing. So foot trapped.* Another 2 mins lost, so 7 late into Lewes, punters to Seaford lost their connection (it's only 4 min, so iffy at the best of times), and punters at Hampden park lost their connection.

This is a genuine question but I would be grateful for an informed comment. It also does not apply just to Southern, but across much of the network.

Evening peak services, say the 1740 from London Bridge, are allowed 63 minutes to Brighton, with five stops. Now a while ago Southern ran a special train on this route, non-stop, in 37 minutes. It complied with every speed restriction throughout and used standard stock. Now I don't believe five stops account for another 26 minutes, so it seems there is an element (or more) of padding/recovery time in the schedules.

Looking at the run quoted above, it lost 3 minutes to East Croydon. It then lost another 2 minutes stopped at Three Bridges. Yet not only was there zero time recovery, but it lost further time to Lewes, sufficient to miss a connection that it (presumably) is timed to make.

So how is it that any minutes lost to delay nowadays seem incapable of being made up in what appear to be schedules by no means timed to the hilt, and in fact further time gets lost. That record run did not break any of the regulations which presumably still apply. Time was when connections were "held" (and the world didn't fall apart when they were), but now, with the connection apparently desperate to be on time to the second, meanwhile the main train can just lose time like this and not recover any of it.

 

[Deepgreen]

This is a genuine question but I would be grateful for an informed comment. It also does not apply just to Southern, but across much of the network.

Evening peak services, say the 1740 from London Bridge, are allowed 63 minutes to Brighton, with five stops. Now a while ago Southern ran a special train on this route, non-stop, in 37 minutes. It complied with every speed restriction throughout and used standard stock. Now I don't believe five stops account for another 26 minutes, so it seems there is an element (or more) of padding/recovery time in the schedules.

Looking at the run quoted above, it lost 3 minutes to East Croydon. It then lost another 2 minutes stopped at Three Bridges. Yet not only was there zero time recovery, but it lost further time to Lewes, sufficient to miss a connection that it (presumably) is timed to make.

So how is it that any minutes lost to delay nowadays seem incapable of being made up in what appear to be schedules by no means timed to the hilt, and in fact further time gets lost. That record run did not break any of the regulations which presumably still apply. Time was when connections were "held" (and the world didn't fall apart when they were), but now, with the connection apparently desperate to be on time to the second, meanwhile the main train can just lose time like this and not recover any of it.

Multiple reasons. The record run of 2005 was on a Sunday (I think) and was a special non-stop working designed to have a clear path throughout.

There may well be slack in the timetable for normal operating, but things such as crews out of position, conflicts with other late or out-of-sequence trains, platform staff not in position for timely DOO dispatch (very prevalent these days), random TSRs, and so on conspire to pile small delay on small delay down the route. There is also an all-pervading lack of urgency/promptness about the railway these days such that time recovery is not seen as a priority (but which seems to be remarkably absent where connections are concerned!)

I have heard announcements on late running GWR trains from Redhill of late that have said that "the driver will do his best to regain time", but this obviously is pretty much impossible with over-speed detection, SPAD-avoidance caution, defensive driving, etc.

Of course, the other element at play here is the increasing trend of omitting stops when running late, even if less than, say, ten minutes behind schedule.

 

[sarahj]

This is a genuine question but I would be grateful for an informed comment. It also does not apply just to Southern, but across much of the network.

Evening peak services, say the 1740 from London Bridge, are allowed 63 minutes to Brighton, with five stops. Now a while ago Southern ran a special train on this route, non-stop, in 37 minutes. It complied with every speed restriction throughout and used standard stock. Now I don't believe five stops account for another 26 minutes, so it seems there is an element (or more) of padding/recovery time in the schedules.

Looking at the run quoted above, it lost 3 minutes to East Croydon. It then lost another 2 minutes stopped at Three Bridges. Yet not only was there zero time recovery, but it lost further time to Lewes, sufficient to miss a connection that it (presumably) is timed to make.

So how is it that any minutes lost to delay nowadays seem incapable of being made up in what appear to be schedules by no means timed to the hilt, and in fact further time gets lost. That record run did not break any of the regulations which presumably still apply. Time was when connections were "held" (and the world didn't fall apart when they were), but now, with the connection apparently desperate to be on time to the second, meanwhile the main train can just lose time like this and not recover any of it.

There is very little slack in the timetable and with the exception of East Croydon, each station has a 1 min station dwell time, ie in at say 56 and out at 57 at Three Bridges, so any tiny delays, say 30 secs at each station only, leads to 5 mins late at Eastbourne. Then units like the 442 have a very slow acceleration, once they get going, they go fine, but getting up to speed. Then the BML, the driver is running on double yellows half the time and it all builds up.

 

[GW43125]

Haven't been forwarded any info to pass to customers so likewise won't comment publicly on what's happened ("operating incident" will do) but I think the maximum disruption now should be a few short formations. Everything seems to have reopened.

I think http://www.itv.com/news/meridian/update/2017-01-31/train-collides-with-buffers-at-brighton/ elaborates on your "operating incident"

 

[sarahj]

There always seems to be passengers rushing to board the train when the doors are closing! Out of interest are Southern Guards not allowed to reopen the doors themselves on 442s?

No, we can only close them, same as with a 377/387.