Information for GTR Southern passengers during strike (no DOO discussion)

[RichardKing]

Focussing on the East Coastway, why can the Ashford International to Brighton services run further than Eastbourne (and vice versa) on Saturdays, but not during the week? The overtime ban timetable, other than this, is exactly the same during the week as it is on Saturdays, so it's not like GTR have taken a service out to enable crew to be available to operate this service.

Although the 171s are usually packed (specifically, at peak times), it's still another service for the people of Polegate, Lewes and Brighton.

EDIT: In fact, this applies to the Seaford services as well; they only run on the weekends, not during the week (probably when they're most needed!).

 

[Bishopstone]

Focussing on the East Coastway, why can the Ashford International to Brighton services run further than Eastbourne (and vice versa) on Saturdays, but not during the week? The overtime ban timetable, other than this, is exactly the same during the week as it is on Saturdays, so it's not like GTR have taken a service out to enable crew to be available to operate this service.

Although the 171s are usually packed (specifically, at peak times), it's still another service for the people of Polegate, Lewes and Brighton.

EDIT: In fact, this applies to the Seaford services as well; they only run on the weekends, not during the week (probably when they're most needed!).

The Seaford departures from Brighton, at xx.10 and xx.40, DO operate during the week: but only as far as Platform 5 at Lewes, where they terminate. I'm unclear why they can't continue the last seven miles to Seaford, even if only once an hour.

Digressing somewhat, but still relevant to this thread. When the dispute ends, will there be sufficient staff resource to restore the full timetable immediately? I hear stories of conductors quitting GTR, and perhaps drivers too, so are there implications for lines such as Seaford, Marshlink and Uckfield that continue to require crew operation?

Are we at Seaford (for example) going to be told: 'Sorry, but we can't restore a half-hourly timetable robustly, so you're going hourly until further notice'?

 

[Deepgreen]

The Seaford departures from Brighton, at xx.10 and xx.40, DO operate during the week: but only as far as Platform 5 at Lewes, where they terminate. I'm unclear why they can't continue the last seven miles to Seaford, even if only once an hour.

Digressing somewhat, but still relevant to this thread. When the dispute ends, will there be sufficient staff resource to restore the full timetable immediately? I hear stories of conductors quitting GTR, and perhaps drivers too, so are there implications for lines such as Seaford, Marshlink and Uckfield that continue to require crew operation?

Are we at Seaford (for example) going to be told: 'Sorry, but we can't restore a half-hourly timetable robustly, so you're going hourly until further notice'?

While there remains little incentive for Southern to run trains; probably.

 

[tsr]

Are we at Seaford (for example) going to be told: 'Sorry, but we can't restore a half-hourly timetable robustly, so you're going hourly until further notice'?

This is exactly what has happened on the Uckfield Line. The service is now hourly vice half-hourly in the peaks. The roster is carefully devised with all sorts of quirks to accommodate the extras, all intertwined so that one missing driver or conductor can be very awkward, though that's not to say there aren't actually enough on some days - certainly, outside of RMT strikes, conductors should now be always in much better supply for that route, because so many (not all) of the East Grinstead services now run with an OBS vice conductor.

(It's not like it's quite as easy as employing more drivers, either. The Uckfield Line is driven by the top couple of links at Norwood depot, so to introduce fresh blood would also require a radical reshuffle and some retirement (etc.) at the top.

Unfortunately, the lack of a solution, beyond a radical rethink of industrial relations regarding the current matters, broadly means that those trains are cancelled "UFN" and the hourly service will be swamped in the peaks (the rear coaches of the 1806 from London Bridge to Uckfield were especially obscene tonight, AIUI). The first train up - the 0516 ex Uckfield - will also continue to be cancelled, which hits the shift workers hard, and is not a nice thing to find out in the cold of a January morning, if you'd overlooked its existence.)

I'm not sure what the position for the Seaford services will be, but it may be similar.

 

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[bengley]

Seems impossible to get trains from ECR to LBR between 7:00 and 8:00 in the morning. Missed three in a row due to overcrowding. Some seem to be short formed as well.

I don't think there are any direct trains from East Croydon to Llanbedr!

 

[Deepgreen]

This is exactly what has happened on the Uckfield Line. The service is now hourly vice half-hourly in the peaks. The roster is carefully devised with all sorts of quirks to accommodate the extras, all intertwined so that one missing driver or conductor can be very awkward, though that's not to say there aren't actually enough on some days - certainly, outside of RMT strikes, conductors should now be always in much better supply for that route, because so many (not all) of the East Grinstead services now run with an OBS vice conductor.

(It's not like it's quite as easy as employing more drivers, either. The Uckfield Line is driven by the top couple of links at Norwood depot, so to introduce fresh blood would also require a radical reshuffle and some retirement (etc.) at the top.

Unfortunately, the lack of a solution, beyond a radical rethink of industrial relations regarding the current matters, broadly means that those trains are cancelled "UFN" and the hourly service will be swamped in the peaks (the rear coaches of the 1806 from London Bridge to Uckfield were especially obscene tonight, AIUI). The first train up - the 0516 ex Uckfield - will also continue to be cancelled, which hits the shift workers hard, and is not a nice thing to find out in the cold of a January morning, if you'd overlooked its existence.)

I'm not sure what the position for the Seaford services will be, but it may be similar.

Another in the seemingly endless list of Southern management failures to plan for the service levels they should be running, and another example of why it is important to remember that their shambolic performance long pre-dates the current self-imposed industrial relations strife.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think there are any direct trains from East Croydon to Llanbedr!

I thought the service was a bit thin!!

 

[gavin]

@SkyNewsBreak

Union for train drivers & operators Aslef has offered to suspend industrial action on Southern Rail if company agrees to talks hosted by TUC

 

[infobleep]

Seems impossible to get trains from ECR to LBR between 7:00 and 8:00 in the morning. Missed three in a row due to overcrowding. Some seem to be short formed as well.

If less trains are running, how do short forms occur? Where is the unused rolling stock sitting? Or are the short forms occurring on rolling stock types being heavily used elsewhere. How do they decide which rolling stock types to use currently, seeing as all of them won't be required?

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

 

[Deepgreen]

If less trains are running, how do short forms occur? Where is the unused rolling stock sitting? Or are the short forms occurring on rolling stock types being heavily used elsewhere. How do they decide which rolling stock types to use currently, seeing as all of them won't be required?

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

I assume through the normal failure of Southern to plan anything effectively.

 

[Llanigraham]

Seems impossible to get trains from ECR to LBR between 7:00 and 8:00 in the morning. Missed three in a row due to overcrowding. Some seem to be short formed as well.

WHERE?
Please don't use 3 letter acronyms, not everyone understands them.

 

[maniacmartin]

I'm guessing you mean London Bridge [LBG]

The short forms occur because of the new way that they are running the Caterham and Tattenham Corner services lately.

Previously, at peak times 4-5 cars came from Caterham and 4-5 cars came from Tattenham Corner. They coupled up at Purley and proceeded as one service through East Croydon into London Bridge or London Victoria. In the evenings, the opposite happened, with trains splitting at Purley.

During the emergency timetable, there is no coupling/decoupling at Purley. Instead the Caterham and Tattenham Corner branches now have half the peak frequency they used to, with alternate trains coming from each branch. The branch lines have short platforms so can't take long trains unless SDO is used or parts of the train is locked out of service. Thus north of Purley the services are short formed - with the section from one of the branches missing.

It's poor that they cant at least run an 8-10 car service with the extra cars locked out of service south of Purley. These services are now crush loaded. Even the 07.02 from Purley leaves people behind at Norwood Junction on a normal day nowadays

 

[Deepgreen]

WHERE?
Please don't use 3 letter acronyms, not everyone understands them.

Indeed - especially Welsh ones (!)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm guessing you mean London Bridge [LBG]

The short forms occur because of the new way that they are running the Caterham and Tattenham Corner services lately.

Previously, at peak times 4-5 cars came from Caterham and 4-5 cars came from Tattenham Corner. They couple up at Purley and proceed as one service through East Croydon into London Bridge or London Victoria. In the evenings, the opposite happened, with trains splitting at Purley.

During the emergency timetable, there is no coupling/decoupling at Purley. Instead the Caterham and Tattenham Corner branches now have half the peak frequency they used to, with alternative trains coming from each branch. The branch lines have short platforms so can't take long trains unless SDO is used or parts of the train is locked out of service.

It's poor that they cant at least run an 8-10 car service with the extra cars locked out of service south of Purley. These services are now crush loaded. Even the 07.02 from Purley leaves people behind at Norwood Junction on a normal day nowadays

What are these alternatives? Or did you mean alternate?

 

[maniacmartin]

What are these alternatives? Or did you mean alternate?

Oops. Now corrected.

 

[peterinlewes]

If less trains are running, how do short forms occur? Where is the unused rolling stock sitting? Or are the short forms occurring on rolling stock types being heavily used elsewhere. How do they decide which rolling stock types to use currently, seeing as all of them won't be required?

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

Just look in Lovers Walk and Selhurst Depots in the peaks. Far more stock sitting around than the normal 'maintenance' allocation. Thats of course if you can actually see out of a window due to the overcrowding.

 

[Deepgreen]

@SkyNewsBreak

Union for train drivers & operators Aslef has offered to suspend industrial action on Southern Rail if company agrees to talks hosted by TUC

Southern's news item on their web site gives a nicely-slanted message concerning "their" (ASLEF's) dispute, rather than 'the' dispute, and talk of the "decision" to suspend strikes rather than the reality of the 'offer' to suspend them.

 

[Bishopstone]

Has the overtime ban also been suspended?

 

[gavin]

@SkyNewsBreak

Union for train drivers & operators Aslef has offered to suspend industrial action on Southern Rail if company agrees to talks hosted by TUC

Next weeks 3 day drivers strike is now off

 

[bengley]

Has the overtime ban also been suspended?

Yes.

.
.

 

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[LAX54]

more info

The railway drivers’ union Aslef has offered to suspend its industrial action on Southern rail next week if the operator agrees to new talks hosted by the Trades Union Congress (TUC).Drivers were due to strike next week on 24, 25 and 27 January as Aslef and RMT continue their dispute with Southern over its proposed changes to the roles of guards on driver-only operated (DOO) trains as RMT has done since last April.The news has come as a boon to Southern’s beleaguered owner Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) who have “warmly welcomed” the decision to suspend the strikes.Mick Whelan, Aslef’s general secretary, said that he is “proposing a new process to try and find a resolution to our industrial dispute with Southern rail”, i...

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/aslef-offers-to-suspend-southern-strikes-for-talks?utm_source=Rail%20Technology%20Magazine&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=7920381_RTM%20Bulletin%20Jan%2017%20wk%203&dm_i=IJS,4PREL,BTDTI2,HNQJ6,1

 

[Thebaz]

I'm guessing you mean London Bridge [LBG]

The short forms occur because of the new way that they are running the Caterham and Tattenham Corner services lately.

Previously, at peak times 4-5 cars came from Caterham and 4-5 cars came from Tattenham Corner. They coupled up at Purley and proceeded as one service through East Croydon into London Bridge or London Victoria. In the evenings, the opposite happened, with trains splitting at Purley.

During the emergency timetable, there is no coupling/decoupling at Purley. Instead the Caterham and Tattenham Corner branches now have half the peak frequency they used to, with alternate trains coming from each branch. The branch lines have short platforms so can't take long trains unless SDO is used or parts of the train is locked out of service. Thus north of Purley the services are short formed - with the section from one of the branches missing.

It's poor that they cant at least run an 8-10 car service with the extra cars locked out of service south of Purley. These services are now crush loaded. Even the 07.02 from Purley leaves people behind at Norwood Junction on a normal day nowadays

I'm in the habit of picking up the 0821 to Victoria at Purley Oaks 3-4 times per week which has always been an 8-car 455 as long as I've been living around there. It's been short-formed just once in January (4th Jan). And only twice before (on days I've been waiting for it) in my memory. Once it ran as two services because they couldn't get the units to join at Purley.

 

[vrbarreto]

Yep the 07:12 from East Croydon to London Bridge was a 4 car instead of 10 this morning.. Nothing on the PA although it was showing on the information display.. I should pay more attention next time..

 

[maniacmartin]

I'm in the habit of picking up the 0821 to Victoria at Purley Oaks 3-4 times per week which has always been an 8-car 455 as long as I've been living around there. It's been short-formed just once in January (4th Jan). And only twice before (on days I've been waiting for it) in my memory. Once it ran as two services because they couldn't get the units to join at Purley.

Clearly I need to go into work later then. Perhaps they are prioritising the trains at the 'height' of rush hour at the expense of those who travel slightly earlier?

 

[Bishopstone]

Southern tweeting that they hope to restore all services by early next week.

I'm sceptical. I think they will continue semi-permanently with a smaller number of cancellations, in the interests of timetable robustness. Hope I'm proved wrong, though.

 

[infobleep]

Well now that the overtime ban has ended, will they be able to restore everything given there is still the ASLEF dispute?

If the ASLEF dispute doesn't matter then, bar ASLEF strike days, how long would it take for the roasters to be ready?

If they can't restore everything and the ASLEF dispute isn't an issue, the public will want to know why.

 

[vrbarreto]

Don't Southern get the same money whether they run no trains or all trains? I though the government picked up any delays or cancellation refunds.. What incentive is there to rush back to a full service apart from passenger convenience... ha ha..what am I saying..

 

[physics34]

Well now that the overtime ban has ended, will they be able to restore everything given there is still the ASLEF dispute?

If the ASLEF dispute doesn't matter then, bar ASLEF strike days, how long would it take for the roasters to be ready?

If they can't restore everything and the ASLEF dispute isn't an issue, the public will want to know why.

there is still actually a staff shortage anyway ..as we know... so i still envisage some issues.

 

[infobleep]

there is still actually a staff shortage anyway ..as we know... so i still envisage some issues.

I guess they will revert to the phase, due to the lack of a driver...

What will be interesting is whether whole scale cancellations will be required inputted at 14.00 each day.

Maybe they will start DOO driver training and hide behind that excuse for the driver shortage.

 

[maniacmartin]

This thread on Section 75 may be of interest to GTR passengers whose service has had disruption