India 1947 - Partition a Mistake ?

[Butts]

It seems strange to me that India has such a vibrant economy whilst Pakistan and Bangladesh seem positively medieval by comparison.

Despite it's undoubted remaining social problems India seems to have left the other two way behind in terms of progress and most social measures.

So why after 70 years are Pakistan and Bangladesh still "basket cases"

No doubt the British will be blamed for the "cock up" that amounted to partitioning the country with a line on a map that paid no attention to the reality of who lived in the affected areas.

Is this fair ?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Yes, it is fair and Bangladesh is somewhat less of a backet case than Pakistan

 

[Butts]

Yes, it is fair and Bangladesh is somewhat less of a backet case than Pakistan

Pray tell, why is "it fair" ?

 

[gordonthemoron]

it was an almighty cock up, the reponsibility for which lies with Louis Mountbatten

 

[Oswyntail]

it was an almighty cock up, the reponsibility for which lies with Louis Mountbatten

I (along, I guess, with many on here) know little about this. Please could you actually explain why you think it was an almighty cock-up.

 

[Butts]

it was an almighty cock up, the reponsibility for which lies with Louis Mountbatten

Mountbatten was the last Governor General - "the line" was actually drawn by Sir Cyril Radcliffe - hence it's moniker "The Radcliffe Line"

After the arbitrary line became a reality millions of muslims were trapped in hindu areas and vice versa with displaced sihks adding to the toxic mix.

What followed was a murderous situation where they turned upon each other with millions being slaughtered by both sides.

The residual British Army was to small to intervene and prevent the carnage.

 

[ainsworth74]

If the partition was a mistake what was the alternative? A different line or no partition at all?

 

[tbtc]

If the partition was a mistake what was the alternative? A different line or no partition at all?

That's what I was wondering - there was no way that any partition could simply split the different ethnic groups, just like one split of the Balkans couldn't do the job, just like one line around Belfast...

I suppose the only realistic alternative would have been for Britain to handover one massive country and let the Indians/ Pakistanis/ Bangledeshis work out any subsequent borders. Not sure why we are arguing about this today though.

PS: there are plenty of parts of India which are just as rural/ "backward" as parts of neighbouring countries - the "boom" in some parts of the economy certainly hasn't been replicated across the whole country - don't be fooled by a few skyscrapers in certain cities.

 

[ainsworth74]

I suppose the only realistic alternative would have been for Britain to handover one massive country and let the Indians/ Pakistanis/ Bangledeshis work out any subsequent borders. Not sure why we are arguing about this today though.

Though of course that would quite possibly have led to an even bloody settlement than partition managed to impose!

 

[Liam]

Has partition ever worked?

Ireland - No, led to a short civil war and unrest for the next 80-90 years
India - No, led to war around the partition line, still much unrest
Korea - Debatable, certainly ended the war, good for the South, but left North Koreans to suffer under the Kim's
Break-up of Yugoslavia - debatable, but certainly didn't achieve an immediate peace.

But you could look at most of these from the other side aswell. e.g. Ireland was already fighting for her independence and had it ever really been at peace?

 

[talltim]

Perhaps if the different religions didn't feel the need to murder each other it wouldn't have been needed. However why did it take partition for them to start?

 

[tbtc]

Though of course that would quite possibly have led to an even bloody settlement than partition managed to impose!

True - but it may have avoided the "No doubt the British will be blamed" reaction of the OP.

There's no easy answers in cases like this. If we can't simply split different communities in the same city (Belfast, with its different pockets of population in the same communities) then doing it over a "subcontinent" is impossible.

But, as you say, what are/were the alternatives?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Has partition ever worked?

Ireland -
India -
Korea -
Yugoslavia -

We could add the plans for one of the most contentious proposals for partition, in Palestine.

Some might feel that the partition of Cyprus was not such a mistake, and that the creation of Belgium should have been more one of partition (north and south).

It's an act of great self-confidence, or, dependng on your point of view, arrogance or imperialism, for a nation to impose a divide within another nation. The imposition of any such division deserves the most rigourous scrutiny.

 

[Bevan Price]

If the partition was a mistake what was the alternative? A different line or no partition at all?

Partition was inevitable. There had been agitation and violence long before independence, with the Muslims not wanting to be ruled by the Hindus. It could probably have been done better, with boundaries better reflecting distribution of the respective communities, and allowing time for (assisted) resettlement of those who considered themselves located in "the wrong areas". .

 

[yorksrob]

What people forget is that partition was a grass roots movement amongst Muslim India. Even Jinnah (leader of the muslim league and founding father of Pakistan) didn't believe in it at first (The Muslim League only adopted the policy with the Lahore Declaration in 1940.

Undoubtedly the partition was a hurried disaster. However, the British were in a position where they had to transfer power before the state collapsed (i.e before the Indian Army split along communal lines). Independence had originally been scheduled for 1948 but had to be brought forward as it was thought that the Raj would collapse before then.

Where the British were really culpable for partition was in establishing seperate muslim and non-muslim electorates amongst enfranchised Indians during the early 20‘th century.

For anyone interested in the subject, I recommend a book called "Freedom at Midnight" by Dominic LaPierre.

 

[Butts]

Gandhi was opposed to partition almost "up to the wire".

The reason it was introduced was to prevent Civil War post Independence, which many feared would be the result of an "intact" India.

Decades later Pakistan was divided and Bangladesh formed from what was East Pakistan.

India and Pakistan have had 3 "official" Wars since separation , and border skirmishes continue to this day.

My question remains notwithstanding the problems India still has, why are Pakistan and Bangladesh so relatively backward in comparison ?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I tend to look back to the 12th century Muslim invasion of India that has never been forgotten or forgiven in certain Hindu circles and the 1947 British-orchestrated partition gave added impetus to those Hindu power bases who had been developing their ideas.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My question remains notwithstanding the problems India still has, why are Pakistan and Bangladesh so relatively backward in comparison ?

Hard-line theocratic Salafist adherence to a Muslim theology of a narrow and unbending train of thought that sees 7th century AD as the point of time to treasure....

 

[Butts]

I tend to look back to the 12th century Muslim invasion of India that has never been forgotten or forgiven in certain Hindu circles and the 1947 British-orchestrated partition gave added impetus to those Hindu power bases who had been developing their ideas.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Hard-line theocratic Salafist adherence to a Muslim theology of a narrow and unbending train of thought that sees 7th century AD as the point of time to treasure....

Saudi Arabia is not backward.....however they have in abundance a certain commodity called Oil

 

[Johnuk123]

Saudi Arabia is not backward.

If you'd been there you wouldn't say they're not backward they're positively medieval and can't do anything for themselves.

Virtually the whole country runs because of outsiders, over half the working population is foreign.You won't find many Saudi engineers or scientists because there aren't any.The universities turn out thousands having theology degrees but few with anything useful.

Women are as poorly treated as in Afghanistan, not long ago a judge refused to allow an 8 yr old girl to divorce a 47 yr old man in defiance of her mother.

While I was writing this it reminded me of this incident where religious dogma caused 14 girls to burn to death, backward is entirely the correct description of this type of thing

http://www.scotsman.com/news/world/trapped-saudi-girls-left-to-burn-by-law-on-dress-1-607203

FOURTEEN girls died in a dormitory fire at a Saudi Arabian school because religious police would not let male firefighters rescue them in case they were not covered from head to toe in traditional robes.

If it wasn't for the gift of oil they would still be pirates and camel herders

 

[ainsworth74]

And lets not forget that not only do they have the death penalty but that they use public beheadings as a method of execution...

 

[Butts]

If you'd been there you wouldn't say they're not backward they're positively medieval and can't do anything for themselves.

Virtually the whole country runs because of outsiders, over half the working population is foreign.You won't find many Saudi engineers or scientists because there aren't any.The universities turn out thousands having theology degrees but few with anything useful.

Women are as poorly treated as in Afghanistan, not long ago a judge refused to allow an 8 yr old girl to divorce a 47 yr old man in defiance of her mother.

While I was writing this it reminded me of this incident where religious dogma caused 14 girls to burn to death, backward is entirely the correct description of this type of thing

http://www.scotsman.com/news/world/trapped-saudi-girls-left-to-burn-by-law-on-dress-1-607203



If it wasn't for the gift of oil they would still be pirates and camel herders

Why keep a dog and bark ?

They may be primitive with regard to not letting women drive (maybe not such a bad idea )

The infrastructure and money is there to fund an advanced lifestyle for the native population with free education and healthcare etc.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

If you'd been there you wouldn't say they're not backward they're positively medieval and can't do anything for themselves.

Virtually the whole country runs because of outsiders, over half the working population is foreign.You won't find many Saudi engineers or scientists because there aren't any. <snip etc.>

So just like the UK really (but more exaggerated)

 

[ainsworth74]

So just like the UK really (but more exaggerated)

I think it would be more like there are no engineers/scientists in Britain because they're all working overseas in somewhere like Saudi Arabia!!