Increasing Sheffield Station Capacity

[syorksdeano]

So HS2 have announced that Sheffield Station will be a stop on HS2 using existing rail tracks.

However it was my understanding that Sheffield was near to capacity and of course for HS2 the station will need to be extended.

Does Sheffield Station have the capacity for extra trains or could Sheffield be looking at a reduction of services?

 

[Iskra]

So HS2 have announced that Sheffield Station will be a stop on HS2 using existing rail tracks.

However it was my understanding that Sheffield was near to capacity and of course for HS2 the station will need to be extended.

Does Sheffield Station have the capacity for extra trains or could Sheffield be looking at a reduction of services?

Surely the MML Meridians won't need to occupy platforms while are they turned around if HS2 services continue onto Leeds as proposed, thus solving the problem. EMT London services probably won't exist anymore if HS2 is up and running. Sheffield would still have XC services to Derby and Northern services to Nottingham.

 

[Andyh82]

By remodelling the platforms, maybe getting rid of the centre roads, they could create some new bays and as a result have 5 unobstructed through platforms.

The two tracks through the tunnels and all the way to Meadowhall may be more of a capacity issue.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Surely the MML Meridians won't need to occupy platforms while are they turned around if HS2 services continue onto Leeds as proposed, thus solving the problem. EMT London services probably won't exist anymore if HS2 is up and running. Sheffield would still have XC services to Derby and Northern services to Nottingham.

However if you get rid of the London services you would then lose direct services to Leicester amongst other destinations between Sheffield and London.

 

[Starmill]

There are 16 years until this becomes a problem in the context of HS2. I should think we will be able to sort something out.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

There are 16 years until this becomes a problem in the context of HS2. I should think we will be able to sort something out.

Sorry to go OT but HS2 will be 25kV AC OHLE so pleased that Sheffield will one way or another get sparked up. Just Kettering to Sheffield then.

 

[edwin_m]

Hard to know what can be done really. There are two pairs of tracks between the platforms but two tracks aren't enough width to turn into one track and an extra platform. They could build out half a platform Nottingham-style but the need is for more platforms for full-length trains rather than half-length. As far as I can see the only way to get more long through platforms would be to flatten the platform 2-5 island and replace it with two islands to create three islands and one side platform, each separated by pairs of tracks.

 

[IanXC]

Sorry to go OT but HS2 will be 25kV AC OHLE so pleased that Sheffield will one way or another get sparked up. Just Kettering to Sheffield then.

Agreed. Also pleasing wires will have to go North via the classic lines at least in the direction of Leeds and Doncaster.

 

[Kettledrum]

However if you get rid of the London services you would then lose direct services to Leicester amongst other destinations between Sheffield and London.

I had hoped that Sheffield would get a new service to Bournemouth using the new East-West rail link. This would go via Leicester so could replace one of the existing Sheffield to London services that would no longer be needed thanks to the new HS2 route.

Any rebuilding of Sheffield station should be done with more services in mind, not less.

It would be interesting how the capacity freed up at St Pancras would be used. I'd be quite keen for Oakham and Melton Mowbray to get an hourly service to St Pancras.

 

[syorksdeano]

I seem to remember that the original plan was to build on the wasteland opposite the station, but it would seem that the council have also offered that land to channel 4 if they relocate

 

[Iskra]

However if you get rid of the London services you would then lose direct services to Leicester amongst other destinations between Sheffield and London.

Yes, but providing links to Nottingham and Derby are maintained, I don't think you'll get too many complaints about the loss of a direct link to Wellingborough, Luton, Bedford etc which could still be accessed by one change (presumably). Many of the stops South of Leicester often require you to change to get to Sheffield anyway unless you don't mind a long wait.

 

[Mugby]

The centre roads at Sheffield seem to be fully utilised at various times for units not in service.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Yes, but providing links to Nottingham and Derby are maintained, I don't think you'll get too many complaints about the loss of a direct link to Wellingborough, Luton, Bedford etc which could still be accessed by one change (presumably). Many of the stops South of Leicester often require you to change to get to Sheffield anyway unless you don't mind a long wait.

From my experience the average passenger doesn't like changing trains, they tend to think that its a bit of a faff. And it gets even worse if you start taking away services that were previously direct. Not only that but if we start forcing people to change trains it lengthens journey times.

The other issue I have is that if you drop the Sheffield to London trains (via Leicester) you then reduce the frequency of services between Sheffield and Derby.

 

[RichmondCommu]

It would be interesting how the capacity freed up at St Pancras would be used. I'd be quite keen for Oakham and Melton Mowbray to get an hourly service to St Pancras.

Even the idea of freeing up capacity at St Pancras would cause me concern simply because you would see reduced levels of service to Leicester, Derby and Nottingham. If you're traveling to either the centre of Nottingham or Derby by the time you've used HS2 to travel to Toton and then changed trains you're not really saving any time.

 

[snowball]

Sorry to go OT but HS2 will be 25kV AC OHLE so pleased that Sheffield will one way or another get sparked up. Just Kettering to Sheffield then.

HS2's proposed method of serving Sheffield Midland is via a link from HS2 near M1 J28 to join the Erewash Valley line south of Clay Cross. So that just leaves Kettering to Clay Cross.

 

[syorksdeano]

The centre roads are usually used by Northern and Transpennine to stable units overnight/weekends. I can't think of anywhere else the units could be stabled apart from the area around that wash think I have never seen used

 

[edwin_m]

The centre roads are usually used by Northern and Transpennine to stable units overnight/weekends. I can't think of anywhere else the units could be stabled apart from the area around that wash think I have never seen used

If it was necessary to expand the station, I'm sure some brownfield land next to the railway could be found somewhere in the Sheffield area to build a Blackburn-style stabling area and crew depot. It would cost money of course, but if such a drastic re-building of the station was needed then it would be a small fraction of the total. The question is whether that level of capacity enhancement is necessary.

 

[YorkshireBear]

If it was necessary to expand the station, I'm sure some brownfield land next to the railway could be found somewhere in the Sheffield area to build a Blackburn-style stabling area and crew depot. It would cost money of course, but if such a drastic re-building of the station was needed then it would be a small fraction of the total. The question is whether that level of capacity enhancement is necessary.

There is loads of spare land North of Sheffield Station near Meadowhall where there are several underutilized sidings etc. Might be able to fit something round there adjacent to the old royal mail depot.

I still think the answer to the capacity issues is to route HS2 through meadowhall but what do i know.

There is very little land around Sheffield Station available for rail development due to the huge retaining wall cuttings at each end. Possible where the PSB and depot are now you could fit some bay platforms if you did some major work at the South end and reinstated some of the tracks.

I think whatever ideas are developed, it is going to be a big big job. Again one which could be avoided if all the council workers who live in Dore hadn't stuck their nose in and made sure South Yorkshire doesn't get a HS2 station just so they can get to London quicker.

Hint 1: Yes I think the council couldn't plan a model railway yet alone a real one.

Hint 2: Yes I am very bitter about it.

 

[The Crab]

Does anyone know the proposed journey time (Sheffield to London) for this route?

 

[jon0844]

From my experience the average passenger doesn't like changing trains, they tend to think that its a bit of a faff. And it gets even worse if you start taking away services that were previously direct. Not only that but if we start forcing people to change trains it lengthens journey times.

I'd favour a direct train if changing part way meant boarding a train that might be full, making it hard to find a seat, store luggage etc.

And changing means having to pray the train isn't late, or booking a connection with a sufficient gap that when things aren't delayed, you're hanging around and extending your overall journey time (in particular for advanced trips). Even if you did the minimum connection, and a delay meant you could take the next service without penalty, you've then got the same finding a seat problem.

That'll be why people want direct trains, even when they're slower (perhaps a longer route).

If I'm on my own, it's a whole different ball game of course.

 

[MarkyT]

It looks like there might be room for a pair of terminating platforms at Meadowhall. HS2 trains could thus continue on through Sheffield Midland station to terminate at Meadowhall and avoid long dwells at Midland. That might avoid any need for extra platforms and would deliver a regional parkway station after all, as well as the desired city centre access. Some trains might also continue on through Sheffield to Leeds via the suggested additional connection back onto the HS line, also with minimal dwells at Sheffield.

At Sheffield Midland, extension of at least some of the through platforms to 400m looks feasible with reconfiguration of the London end throat. The longest platform is around 380m today. Shrewsbury Road over-bridge would probably need replacement to provide the necessary freedom to realign the tracks, due to the current structure's narrow tunnel-like construction. That might be desirable anyway for electrification clearances. With the islands extended in this way, the outer faces could become HS dedicated for long trains while the inner ones were split and connected to the through roads by mid platform scissors crossovers to provide greater flexibility for other, shorter trains. Lengthening looks plausible at Chesterfield too.

 

[Grimsby town]

As others have already mentioned, hs2 services could run through to avoid the need for new platforms. I think the much bigger issue is fitting the number of trains in on the approaches from the south and north. Therefore, I think the following should be implemented.

Remodelling of the junction between the Hope Valley and MML at Dore to avoid flat crossings as well as quadruplling to boost capacity. I think the difficulty is what shape quadrupling should take. Running the MML and Hope Valley Line as separate two track railways from Sheffield station itself will reduce conflicts but would make it harder to reopen stations and introduce new stopping services. Perhaps creating 3 platforms at Dore on the hope valley line would allow trains that currently terminate in Sheffield to run through providing a stopping service to reopened stations and reducing the time trains are waiting in Sheffield thus freeing up capacity.

At the northern end, adding an extra track to separate the Worksop line from other traffic would reduce all conflicts upto Meadowhall but will be difficult and expensive to engineer. After this a flyover to allow southbound traffic from the Hallam Line to avoid flat crossings at Meadowhall and increasing Meadowhall station to 4 platforms on the Doncaster line should provide a significant boost to capacity.

 

[BanburyBlue]

I thought the idea of routeing HS2 into central Sheffield was to get HS2 trains into central Sheffield, not Meadowhall?

And the guy on the radio 5 yesterday afternoon (sorry, don't know if HS2 or government) said engineering surveys have been carried out, so surely if they've decided to route HS2 into Sheffied they must have a high-level idea of how they're going to do it?

 

[eastdyke]

I thought the idea of routeing HS2 into central Sheffield was to get HS2 trains into central Sheffield, not Meadowhall?

And the guy on the radio 5 yesterday afternoon (sorry, don't know if HS2 or government) said engineering surveys have been carried out, so surely if they've decided to route HS2 into Sheffied they must have a high-level idea of how they're going to do it?

Talk of Meadowhall is now pointless.

Sadly all the headlines have been about knocking down houses, the good news is that HS2 actually better connects 2 of the largest cities in the country hub to hub, both together and to London.

 

[snowball]

I thought the idea of routeing HS2 into central Sheffield was to get HS2 trains into central Sheffield, not Meadowhall?

The idea of routing HS2 trains (note not the HS2 line) through Sheffield Midland is to avoid bulding the new HS2 route through Meadowhall, not because something terrible happens to HS2 rolling stock if it goes near Meadowhall, but because the new high-speed line through Meadowhall with its station on a tall viaduct would be expensive, and also to accommodate to local demands to serve central Sheffield.

MarkyT's proposal is for HS2 trains, after calling at Sheffield Midland, to continue on existing tracks to new platforms at the existing Meadowhall station, not because Meadowhall is so important in itself, but because terminating them at Sheffield would use up the limited platform capacity there.

 

[eastdyke]

Does anyone know the proposed journey time (Sheffield to London) for this route?

Last I heard the time was 85mins, can't find the reference at the mo.

Found the reference now, in this 2016 document from which the announcement yesterday confirmed the decisions. Pages 52/53 are the most relevant for Sheffield Midland.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...anchester-west-midlands-leeds-web-version.pdf

6.22 HS2 will have a transformational effect on journey times, with journeys between Sheffield Midland and Birmingham taking 48 minutes, compared to 1 hour 3 minutes currently, and between Sheffield Midland and London taking 1 hour 25 minutes, compared to 2 hours 1 minute currently.

The full point of HS2 is not simply speed, its about network capacity.

 

[eastdyke]

The idea of routing HS2 trains (note not the HS2 line) through Sheffield Midland is to avoid bulding the new HS2 route through Meadowhall, not because something terrible happens to HS2 rolling stock if it goes near Meadowhall, but because the new high-speed line through Meadowhall with its station on a tall viaduct would be expensive, and also to accommodate to demands to serve central Sheffield.

MarkyT's proposal is for HS2 trains to continue through Sheffield to Meadowhall on existing tracks, because terminating them at Sheffield would use up the limited platform capacity there.

I don't think any HS2 trains will terminate Sheffield. They will all be too and from further north.

 

[snowball]

I don't think any HS2 trains will terminate Sheffield. They will all be too and from further north.

It could end up that way but it hasn't been a clear part of the proposals.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Last I heard the time was 85mins, can't find the reference at the mo.

The full point of HS2 is not simply speed, its about network capacity.

Exactly... So why even try run them through Sheffield on the existing network.

 

[ashworth]

Even the idea of freeing up capacity at St Pancras would cause me concern simply because you would see reduced levels of service to Leicester, Derby and Nottingham. If you're traveling to either the centre of Nottingham or Derby by the time you've used HS2 to travel to Toton and then changed trains you're not really saving any time.

I can't see there being any freeing up of capacity at St. Pancras as a exult of reduced levels of service to Leicester, Derby and Nottingham. Leicester will still require at least the same level of service it receives today as probably will Nottingham and Derby. Perhaps there will just not be any need for 2 trains per hour to continue beyond Derby to Sheffield. Toton will be very useful for people living the to the west of Nottingham and east of Derby, as it will for many people who live in areas of both counties with easy access to the M1. However, for large parts of both cities and surrounding areas travelling to St. Pancras will probably still be quicker and easier without having to change trains at Toton.