Increase in services possibly come May 2022

[Driver068]

Hello all and thanks in advance. I was wondering if anyone can explain or point me in the right direction for the information if necessary. Unsure if already posted on the forum so apologies.

I am interested to know, as some TOCs are increasing some services possibly come May 2022 time table change. However on Real Train Times no information on any services running has of yet been published or am i able to find. Can you purchase tickets that far in advance?

Also if these services are to increase come May 2022 - have they been finalised between Network Rail and TOCs in question and when may the information be available. I hope ive explained my quiery clearly.

Thankyou

 

[47827]

Scotrail was supposed to putting back a more hourly service on the Highland Mainline on a draft timetable I saw, but whether it actually happens it's anybody's guess. There was to be a better utilisation of hst sets on the line and other IC routes connected with that too. Who knows if it'll happen though with recent extensions of scaled back services and further cuts owing to staffing issues. TPE were also supposed to be reinstating some services by then too.

 

[JonathanH]

Also if these services are to increase come May 2022 - have they been finalised between Network Rail and TOCs in question and when may the information be available. I hope ive explained my quiery clearly.

Various reports suggest services could even reduce further from May 2022 (relative to a base level of the intended December 2021 timetable rather than what is operating today) depending on what is agreed with the DfT. Ultimately it will be about assessing demand, revenue and the cost of providing services based on current views about any change in passenger numbers.

The point would appear to be that decisions are still being taken so won't be known for a while.

 

[ChrisC]

Most of the reduced timetables have been achieved by trains just being removed from the timetable. There have been very few instances where the remaining trains have been retimed to take into consideration onward connections. If these reduced timetables, or even further reduced timetables, are to continue from May, there really ought to be a some kind of adjusting of times. Changing times of trains is a complex issue, especially in busy areas, and can take a number of years to implement so almost certainly will not happen any time soon.

As an example EMR last June reduced the service between Nottingham and Mansfield to hourly by removing most Nottingham to Mansfield Woodhouse trains. This leaves for most of the day just the hourly Worksop train at xx25 each hour. Last week they also removed the 1525 train to Worksop leaving a 2 hour gap. Anyone arriving in Nottingham at around 1430 on trains from Norwich, London, Liverpool, Birmingham, Lincoln, Skegness etc now has a 2 hour wait for a connection to Mansfield. The trains at 1455, 1525 and 1555 have all currently been removed from the timetable. A walk to the Victoria Bus Station and then a bus is probably a better option. Interestingly on EMR’s now very outdated seat finder on the website, the recently removed 1525 train shows as one of the most crowded trains of the day!

 

[Halish Railway]

Blackrod and Adlington (Lancs.) will get their hourly services back.

 

[Bald Rick]

The May timetable will be visible in the next few days. But I wouldn’t bet on it remaining unchanged from then.

 

[Halish Railway]

Now that the Leeds station improvement works are complete will this timetable change see the introduction of 6 carriage trains on the Leeds North West services?

If so this will require a number of adjustments to the timetable; This includes changing or removing the interworking patterns so that 6 carriage trains are confined to services to and from Leeds rather than carrying fresh air into Bradford, as well as retiming services due to the 6 carriage trains fouling signals at Shipley and preventing another train from departing.

 

[philosopher]

Most of the reduced timetables have been achieved by trains just being removed from the timetable. There have been very few instances where the remaining trains have been retimed to take into consideration onward connections. If these reduced timetables, or even further reduced timetables, are to continue from May, there really ought to be a some kind of adjusting of times. Changing times of trains is a complex issue, especially in busy areas, and can take a number of years to implement so almost certainly will not happen any time soon.

As an example EMR last June reduced the service between Nottingham and Mansfield to hourly by removing most Nottingham to Mansfield Woodhouse trains. This leaves for most of the day just the hourly Worksop train at xx25 each hour. Last week they also removed the 1525 train to Worksop leaving a 2 hour gap. Anyone arriving in Nottingham at around 1430 on trains from Norwich, London, Liverpool, Birmingham, Lincoln, Skegness etc now has a 2 hour wait for a connection to Mansfield. The trains at 1455, 1525 and 1555 have all currently been removed from the timetable. A walk to the Victoria Bus Station and then a bus is probably a better option. Interestingly on EMR’s now very outdated seat finder on the website, the recently removed 1525 train shows as one of the most crowded trains of the day!

Simply removing trains from the timetable as opposed to rewriting the timetable them also results in lopsided timetables. For example in the December timetable Avanti’s West Midlands route roughly has a 20 minute followed by 40 minute gap in services, instead of even 30 minute gaps. I am sure there are many other examples

If services are to be cut long term, at some point timetables will have to be extensively rewritten to reduce lopsided timetables and allow for more convenient connections.

 

[Driver068]

The May timetable will be visible in the next few days. But I wouldn’t bet on it remaining unchanged from then.

Is this common for this time of year or a covid thing. I know GC were meant to be increasing services come May 2022, unsure if this is still the case but i guess if your correct then this information maybe available then?

 

[Bald Rick]

Is this common for this time of year or a covid thing. I know GC were meant to be increasing services come May 2022, unsure if this is still the case but i guess if your correct then this information maybe available then?

The May timetable change would normally have been public before now, but it is later than normal because planning timescales have been crunches duo (because of Covid).

 

[splashoutradio]

The May timetable change would normally have been public before now, but it is later than normal because planning timescales have been crunches duo (because of Covid).

There's a very good chance I'm incorrect, but wasn't the pre-Covid deadline for the release of timetable data 12 weeks before going live?

 

[BrianB]

There's a very good chance I'm incorrect, but wasn't the pre-Covid deadline for the release of timetable data 12 weeks before going live?

That is my understanding too, as my timescales for starting the next edition of the NRT are also based on T-12

 

[Bald Rick]

There's a very good chance I'm incorrect, but wasn't the pre-Covid deadline for the release of timetable data 12 weeks before going live?

For confirmed changes due to engineering works, yes. That’s now at 8 weeks.

However the base timetable (against which engineering work alterations are made) is usually published several weeks further out.

 

[The Planner]

If we were in simpler times we would be offering to the TOCs at T26 for the WTT changes.

 

[Watershed]

The May timetable has been offered and TOCs have sent off their responses. Those have largely been dealt with and so, in principle, the "completed" timetable will shortly be published for the likes of RTT to display.

However a significant proportion of TOCs have already indicated their intention to curtail elements of their originally planned May timetable. And so the data that gets published in the next few days should not at all be treated as reliable.

Timescales are much closer to "T-0" nowadays than they used to be. Whilst this increases the time pressure for everyone involved, amidst current circumstances it would make no sense to increase timescales again. You would simply end up changing things again and again.

 

[The Planner]

The May timetable has been offered and TOCs have sent off their responses. Those have largely been dealt with and so, in principle, the "completed" timetable will shortly be published for the likes of RTT to display.

However a significant proportion of TOCs have already indicated their intention to curtail elements of their originally planned May timetable. And so the data that gets published in the next few days should not at all be treated as reliable.

Timescales are much closer to "T-0" nowadays than they used to be. Whilst this increases the time pressure for everyone involved, amidst current circumstances it would make no sense to increase timescales again. You would simply end up changing things again and again.

Winds the FOCs up no end.

 

[Watershed]

Winds the FOCs up no end.

Can't blame them TBH. By and large they have demand for more flows and higher frequencies than before Covid. Yet passenger operators' firm rights mean that a lot of proposed paths have had to be rejected - even though those rights frequently seem not to materialise when it comes to it.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The May timetable has been offered and TOCs have sent off their responses. Those have largely been dealt with and so, in principle, the "completed" timetable will shortly be published for the likes of RTT to display.

However a significant proportion of TOCs have already indicated their intention to curtail elements of their originally planned May timetable. And so the data that gets published in the next few days should not at all be treated as reliable.

Timescales are much closer to "T-0" nowadays than they used to be. Whilst this increases the time pressure for everyone involved, amidst current circumstances it would make no sense to increase timescales again. You would simply end up changing things again and again.

So the step your missing is that the DofT have yet to take a red pen to it by the sounds of it.

 

[Driver068]

Im aware LNER will possibly not be running a full timetable come May 2022 as well as TPE although they should be running to Edinburgh with increased stopping pattern, so i believe. I know HT and GC want to increase there services from May, has this had any impact of late, would it still be happening and then you have Lumo who want to run their full 5 services each way from May also - I am wondering for any of these TOCs if there plans have been affected in any way and how much if any, has this new varient has hampered their plans.

You will notice the company's above mentioned are OAO - Would i be correct in saying being OAO or a franchised TOC matters not in the current circumstances.

 

[JonathanH]

Would i be correct in saying being OAO or a franchised TOC matters not in the current circumstances.

No, an open access operator has to cover its costs without government support so will not run services that it thinks will lose money. A franchised TOC has to agree its services with the DfT so will run what the DfT is prepared to support. The Open Access Operator has a much less complex decision to make as it only operates a handful of services each day.

 

[Driver068]

No, an open access operator has to cover its costs without government support so will not run services that it thinks will lose money. A franchised TOC has to agree its services with the DfT so will run what the DfT is prepared to support. The Open Access Operator has a much less complex decision to make as it only operates a handful of services each day.

Cheers, i mean in terms of deciding to cut or increase services but i think you covered that so cheers.

 

[mrd269697]

Apparently the borderlands line is supposed to be finally getting it’s two trains an hour come May - however considering they aren’t even running an hourly service at the moment - I can’t see that happening.

 

[Llandudno]

Apparently the borderlands line is supposed to be finally getting it’s two trains an hour come May - however considering they aren’t even running an hourly service at the moment - I can’t see that happening.

It’s all gone a bit quiet regarding the introduction of TfW’s ‘refurbished’ 40+ year old London Underground units for this route as part of the much heralded north Wales Metro!

 

[splashoutradio]

That is my understanding too, as my timescales for starting the next edition of the NRT are also based on T-12

I've been using NRs timetable feed for a number of years, for similar (albeit less impressive) uses as yourself. And whilst I can't remember timetable change data being released earlier than T-12 before, there's does appear to be quite a lot of May22 data coming out in the daily CIF updates.

 

[Driver068]

So i have noticed there are now some updates on RTT post May 2022 - Would you say a gurantee as a gurantee can be that the amendments are now commitments for those TOCs and also when do timetables normally get published and put out for the general public

 

[Bald Rick]

So i have noticed there are now some updates on RTT post May 2022 - Would you say a gurantee as a gurantee can be that the amendments are now commitments for those TOCs and also when do timetables normally get published and put out for the general public

as posted upthread, what you see in RTT is the base timetable. In normal circumstances this would be good for most journeys but subject to change for planned engineering works - ie some weekends and late evenings - with those changes published 12 weeks out from the relevant trains running. However since Covid that 12 week timescale has reduced (as the planners have been changing timetables a lot more frequently, and not a few have been off with the plague themselves), and the planned changes are now published 8 weeks out.

However, we are in even more special times, due to increased absence because of the latest Covid variant, rest today working bans that show no sign of resolution, and so on. So you can expect some services to change, for some operators, for services operating at any time of day or week. Although probably not by much.