Incorrect penalty fare?

[kh57379]

I think you need to take a step back a minute and try and see what the Revenue Inspectors have seen to understand why they have issues it in this way. After all, you don't seem to have an issue being issued with a PF, merely the destination/price charged.

- Inspector asks for your ticket
- You show a standard ticket in a 1st class area
- Inspector states they must Penalty Fare you
- You state you are just there to eat and will move back to standard once finished
- Train is approaching WGC, you show no sign of moving to standard class
- Inspector tells you to remain in the seat to issue to PF (the PF authorises you to be there until your destination so again they say you can remain there)
- Inspector issues PF to destination not next stop as you aren't packing up to move
- PF therefore issued beyond next stop so must be to destination
- After Inspector moves on, you finish food and then move to standard class
- You take evidence to show you did move after the fact to standard class

Would this be a fair summary?

Hi, bullet 5 onward is wrong. At this point I am trying to get up and move back as I said I would but the officer stops me and tells me to continue eating and sitting there. I did not want to be there. They just made me sit and wait while they issued the penalty. I literally had no choice because they made me stay there and literally told me to continue.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Hi, bullet 5 onward is wrong. At this point I am trying to get up and move back as I said I would but the officer stops me and tells me to continue eating and sitting there. I did not want to be there. They just made me sit and wait while they issued the penalty. I literally had no choice because they made me stay there and literally told me to continue.

Yes they told you to remain whilst they ISSUED the Penalty Fare.

Did you move after being issued the PF or did you finish your food (as stated) and then move.

 

[kh57379]

Yes they told you to remain whilst they ISSUED the Penalty Fare.

Did you move after being issued the PF or did you finish your food (as stated) and then move.

Yes they told me to stay where I was while they were issuing the fare and to continue staying where I was despite trying to move.

Both happened at the same time. They issued and left but told me to stay while leaving and as they were leaving I was packing up.

 

[John R]

Did you refuse to move the first time you were asked?

 

[Simon Hans]

Out of interest, was first class entirely empty (other than you)?

 

[Haywain]

I did not overstay

You had no right to be there to start with. Your "consideration" for other passengers was taking something you were not entitled to.

 

[kh57379]

Did you refuse to move the first time you were asked?

I was never asked to move

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Nov 2025 ==

You had no right to be there to start with. Your "consideration" for other passengers was taking something you were not entitled to.

Brilliant response!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Nov 2025 ==

Out of interest, was first class entirely empty (other than you)?

Yes

 

[SuspectUsual]

This all feels like a spectacular failing of the attitude test

 

[John R]

You said:-

I told them I’m going to move back after I finished eating.

That clearly suggests you had not finished eating at the time of the inspection, as it is an action in the future. Indeed, it would be a remarkable coincidence if you just happened to finish eating at the moment of inspection. So you told them that you would move once you finished eating, but not before. That, in my mind, is a refusal to move now (and is certainly a complete failure of the attitude test, essentially saying, "you've caught me, but I'm not going to move just yet.")

You cannot expect the inspectors to a) believe that you will do it, or b) come back and check - they may well get off at the next stop. So that being the case, they had no alternative but to make the PF out for the complete journey. It is unrealistic for them to say "OK, well you estimate how long it is going to take for you to finish off that Vindaloo, onion bhaji and naan, and we'll make the PF out to the station it calls at after that."

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Others have advised of grounds on which you can challenge the penalty fare. But it seems to me that you also need to be aware of the railway byelaws which you can find at https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a79c14b40f0b66d161ade8c/railway-byelaws.pdf. It seems to me that byelaw 6(8) is relevant (and also byelaw 24(1)):

6. Unacceptable behaviour
(...)
(8) No person shall molest or wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of
any person on the railway.

(...)

24. Enforcement
(1) Offence and level of fines
Any person who breaches any of these Byelaws commits an offence and,
with the exception of Byelaw 17, may be liable for each such offence to a
penalty not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.

It's against the rules to travel in first class without a first class ticket: this has been dealt with by the penalty fare. But it's also against the rules to 'wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of any person on the railway'. We know that railway staff dealt with you in an otherwise empty first class compartment - but they are still persons. And since in your original post you tell us

I had a lot of food out in the open and was trying to avoid suffocating my fellow passengers,

you seem to accept that your food could be annoying, and that this would be a problem for other people - so you would be wilfully interfering with their comfort.

So if part of your appeal is going to be the consideration you were showing for other passengers, bear in mind that that will mean admitting a byelaw offence which the railway could prosecute you for.

We try hard not to be judgemental here, but it seems to me that whatever your motivation was, you've been caught bang to rights breaking the rules by travelling in first class without a first class ticket. If you don't appeal, you'll have to pay the penalty fare: if you do appeal you will be admitting to an offence that you could be fined for. Given that there's very little doubt that you were breaking the rules, my suggestion would be to pay the penalty fare within the 21 days allowed which reduces the penalty from £100 to £50, along with the first class fare that you were also charged.

 

[WesternLancer]

Others have advised of grounds on which you can challenge the penalty fare. But it seems to me that you also need to be aware of the railway byelaws which you can find at https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a79c14b40f0b66d161ade8c/railway-byelaws.pdf. It seems to me that byelaw 6(8) is relevant (and also byelaw 24(1)):



It's against the rules to travel in first class without a first class ticket: this has been dealt with by the penalty fare. But it's also against the rules to 'wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of any person on the railway'. We know that railway staff dealt with you in an otherwise empty first class compartment - but they are still persons. And since in your original post you tell us
you seem to accept that your food could be annoying, and that this would be a problem for other people - so you would be wilfully interfering with their comfort.

So if part of your appeal is going to be the consideration you were showing for other passengers, bear in mind that that will mean admitting a byelaw offence which the railway could prosecute you for.

We try hard not to be judgemental here, but it seems to me that whatever your motivation was, you've been caught bang to rights breaking the rules by travelling in first class without a first class ticket. If you don't appeal, you'll have to pay the penalty fare: if you do appeal you will be admitting to an offence that you could be fined for. Given that there's very little doubt that you were breaking the rules, my suggestion would be to pay the penalty fare within the 21 days allowed which reduces the penalty from £100 to £50, along with the first class fare that you were also charged.

FWIW I think this post is very well set out and it is a point the OP should be aware of - and this should help the OP weigh up their options.

My hunch (and I emphasise hunch) is that the probability of the railway taking action under those by laws mentioned is fairly slim - but you can never say never.

the OP needs to set that against the benefit from Appealing and the inability to know if the appeal might be successful or not (probably would have to pursue it through all three stages)

So my hunch is that the OP probably does not have much to loose by Appealing, on the basis that they have indicated.

@kolewneph if you do go for an Appeal let us know how you get on if you can.

Whatever you do don't miss deadlines to secure the £50 reduction (if you don't know already the clock is paused on those whilst an Appeal is being considered) or payments can be made now and would be refunded if Appeal is upheld.

 

[peterblue]

You said:-


It is unrealistic for them to say "OK, well you estimate how long it is going to take for you to finish off that Vindaloo, onion bhaji and naan, and we'll make the PF out to the station it calls at after that."

Alternatively the OP could wait until home or outside to crack open a carton of fish and chips, or an Indian takeaway.

If the OP is truly concerned about public decorum and not causing unnecessary noises or smells in public, then that's the logical thing to do.

 

[Kite159]

Of course you would have moved to standard class after finish eating had you not been caught out sitting in 1st class with a standard class ticket on a DOO service...

 

[kh57379]

Of course you would have moved to standard class after finish eating had you not been caught out sitting in 1st class with a standard class ticket on a DOO service...

Yeah I would have! Prior to this I have had a perfect rail record and I have never once skipped a fare. For a lot of AuDHD people, justice and defending justice is really important. You may not believe me and cast all the judgements you want, and that’s ok!

 

[jumble]

Yes they told you to remain whilst they ISSUED the Penalty Fare.

Did you move after being issued the PF or did you finish your food (as stated) and then move.

Why would the OP move after being given a PF that entitles them to stay in first class?

You said:-



That clearly suggests you had not finished eating at the time of the inspection, as it is an action in the future. Indeed, it would be a remarkable coincidence if you just happened to finish eating at the moment of inspection. So you told them that you would move once you finished eating, but not before. That, in my mind, is a refusal to move now (and is certainly a complete failure of the attitude test, essentially saying, "you've caught me, but I'm not going to move just yet.")

You cannot expect the inspectors to a) believe that you will do it, or b) come back and check - they may well get off at the next stop. So that being the case, they had no alternative but to make the PF out for the complete journey. It is unrealistic for them to say "OK, well you estimate how long it is going to take for you to finish off that Vindaloo, onion bhaji and naan, and we'll make the PF out to the station it calls at after that."

The other view of this is that the OP has not agreed or requested that the PF be issued to the destination which is against the rules
In my view if the inspectors choose not to believe or check then that is their problem and they cannot use it as an excuse to break the PF rules
If I were the OP I would simply appeal on that basis and only on that basis
Simply asserting that they would have been back in Second class by the time the train stopped at Knebworth and that is where the PF should have been issued to
Afterall is it fair that an inspector can delay actually issuing a PF after an offence has been detected costing the client more and more as each stationstop is passed
( I am assuming that a PF is considered to be issued the moment the print button is pressed and not from when the offence is detected)
Does anyone know how the timeof issue is defined

 

[AlterEgo]

Why would the OP move after being given a PF that entitles them to stay in first class?

Ask the OP that, who moved at some point after finishing two final prawns.

 

[ChilliSauce]

Yeah I would have! Prior to this I have had a perfect rail record and I have never once skipped a fare. For a lot of AuDHD people, justice and defending justice is really important. You may not believe me and cast all the judgements you want, and that’s ok!

Ask yourself this ....if I had been sitting in that 1st class compartment would you have come in to eat your smelly dinner?
As I see it you have been caught fairly and squarely travelling in a 1st class compartment with a Std class ticket ... I have no sympathy, I suggest you now just face up to the fare evasion and pay the penalty fare ... Just going on about how far it should of been issued to is in my view, in this case just trivia.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Why would the OP move after being given a PF that entitles them to stay in first class?

To prove that the PF should have only been to the next station. Which is what the OP is saying should have happened.

The fact they remained afterwards proved they did not intend on moving back to standard class prior to the next station, so the PF had to be issued to their destination.

 

[Hadders]

I've deleted some posts in this thread which were not helpful to the OP. The purpose of this thread is to assist the OP with their issue and forum members are reminded to make sure that advice given reflects the guidance for this section.

Please read before posting in Disputes & Prosecutions

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