Incorrect gateline information regarding Bowes Park - Harlow Town validity, Hackney Downs

[43094]

Just for awareness for anyone looking to do similar, I undertook a Bowes Park - Harlow Town journey today, involving a route via Highbury & Islington, Hackney Central and (then walk to) Hackney Downs.

The ticket was a Bowes Park - Harlow Town single, including a 'Maltese Cross' sign. To note, my ticket had refused to work in the barriers at Hackney Central, Hackney Downs or Harlow Town gatelines, though at Hackney Central and Harlow Town there had been no issue with being allowed to leave the stations.

The gateline at Hackney Downs initially refused to accept the ticket, simply stating 'No. Your ticket is to Harlow Town, this is Hackney Downs'.

After quite some discussion about the ticket validity and my going through the route taken, eventually I was let through, though the gateline person was clearly still unconvinced.

National Rail (other websites are available) will happily provide journey itineraries / sell a ticket via that route.

Thought it worth mentioning, in case the station is one of those with 'a reputation' for declining things!

 

[yorkie]

LO are notorious for this sort of nonsense; the training is inadequate, and the people recruited into these roles frequently don't appear to meet the job/person spec.

I had similar issues at Dalston Jn; I had to use contactless and a refund for the contactless fare, plus £10 compensation.

Please make a complaint here:

Contact us - Tube, Overground, DLR, Trams, Elizabeth line and stations

Contact us about Tube, Elizabeth line, Overground, DLR, Trams or TfL stations

tfl.gov.uk

I think the person I encountered may have been employed by Arriva North London (who operate London Overground on behalf of TfL) as they were in a ticket office, but staff who aren't in ticket offices who check tickets at stations might be Carlisle Security, who claim:

Arriva Rail London (ARL) - Carlisle Support Services

ARL is a train operating company owned by Arriva UK Trains that operate the London Overground concession on behalf of Transport for London. It is a suburban rail network serving London and the surrounding districts, with 112 stations on nine different routes, it is complementary…

www.carlislesupportservices.com

our staff are trained to become proficient in network geography and ticketing procedures and protocols

Arriva make the following claims:

Careers - Arriva Rail London

www.arrivaraillondon.co.uk

Are you passionate about ensuring passengers have seamless and memorable journeys? Join our dynamic customer experience team, which is dedicated to revolutionising the passenger experience and setting new standards for excellence....

These roles play a crucial part in making every passenger feel valued, supported and delighted at every step of their travel experience.

...Our head office team works behind the scenes to shape the overall passenger experience, from developing innovative solutions to addressing customer feedback.

...If you’re a committed, empathetic individual who instinctively steps in when someone needs help, our customer experience team has the right role for your next career step.

Needless to say, the reality is not always consistent with what they claim to be true.

Sadly there are insufficient safeguards in place to ensure staff act appropriately. The LO network could do with being regularly subject to "mystery shopping" but there is no desire for it.

So the nonsense of being provided with misleading and incorrect information looks set to continue indefinitely.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jun 2024 ==

By the way, if you aren't wanting to break your journey, it is possible to walk directly between Hackney Downs/Central:

OpenStreetMap

OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use under an open license.

www.openstreetmap.org

I believe the walkway is on the 'paid' side, so no need to encounter any staff while using it (unless a revenue block is in place), though I've only used it once, so cannot say for certain on that.

 

[43094]

Thanks for the info about the walkway, I can confirm that at Hackney Downs it does look to be on the 'paid' side, though am unsure about Hackney Central. I didn't use it this time though, as I was with a friend and I wanted to visit a couple of pubs.

I've submitted some feedback, let's see what reply is recieved. Luckily it didn't cause me to either pay extra or miss a train, though if I hadn't been calmly confident, it would certainly have caused me to be required to purchase an additional ticket!

 

[Haywain]

I believe the walkway is on the 'paid' side, so no need to encounter any staff while using it (unless a revenue block is in place), though I've only used it once, so cannot say for certain on that.

It most certainly is on the paid side of the two stations. I've only used it once, but that was only 3 weeks ago!

 

[43094]

Reply from TfL below. Not entirely happy with it, as although there *was* a break of journey in Hackney of around 45 minutes, on the walk between the two stations, the route (and questioned entry point at Hackney Downs) was on a permitted route for the ticket, so to my mind the below hasn't really addressed the point I'd raised.

There's a limit to how much I want to push this though, given I was let through in the end - but the response recieved is below for anyone interested!

Thank you for your enquiry 2 June about your ticket issue.

I hope this email finds you well.
Sorry for the delay in replying; this is due in part to the volume of queries we are receiving.

If I understand your query correctly:

My opinion is that a Single fare ticket should at base allow entrance at station A and exit at station B and any break in journey may involve the good will of station staff, if it's not obvious from the face of ticket that that break is permissible.

Journey planners may not be entirely integrated with ticket vending software; TfL runs a rather complex network intersecting with different rail lines and railway companies.

I am glad you were able to complete your journey.

Thanks again for contacting us. If there is anything else we can help you with, please reply to this email. Alternatively, you can call us on 0343 222 1234 and we'll be happy to help you.

Kind regards

​

 

[redreni]

​ Reply from TfL below. Not entirely happy with it, as although there *was* a break of journey in Hackney of around 45 minutes, on the walk between the two stations, the route (and questioned entry point at Hackney Downs) was on a permitted route for the ticket, so to my mind the below hasn't really addressed the point I'd raised. There's a limit to how much I want to push this though, given I was let through in the end - but the response recieved is below for anyone interested! Thank you for your enquiry 2 June about your ticket issue. I hope this email finds you well. Sorry for the delay in replying; this is due in part to the volume of queries we are receiving. If I understand your query correctly: My opinion is that a Single fare ticket should at base allow entrance at station A and exit at station B and any break in journey may involve the good will of station staff, if it's not obvious from the face of ticket that that break is permissible. Journey planners may not be entirely integrated with ticket vending software; TfL runs a rather complex network intersecting with different rail lines and railway companies. I am glad you were able to complete your journey. Thanks again for contacting us. If there is anything else we can help you with, please reply to this email. Alternatively, you can call us on 0343 222 1234 and we'll be happy to help you. Kind regards​

This message has been scanned for malware by Forcepoint. www.forcepoint.com​

The right to break your journey at a National Rail station need not involve any goodwill on the part of gateline staff - simple competence will suffice. So I certainly wouldn't be accepting that as an answer if I were you.

As I mentioned on another thread, I think it's concerning that parts of the National Rail network like London Overground, Merseyrail etc seem increasingly reluctant to adhere to National Rail through ticketing arrangements.

I do take TfL's point about complexity and, in fairness to the staff at Hackney, it is probably rare for them to encounter a passenger changing onto a Harlow train with a paper ticket, particularly when most transferring passengers will use the walkway so won't pass through the gates. As a practical matter in future, taking a screenshot of the itinerary you saw when you planned your journey so that you can show it at the gateline if needed might help them to understand what you're doing and might help assure them you're not trying to use a Maltese Cross ticket as if it were a Travelcard.

 

[43094]

Yes, it’s a fair point about it being a ticket they’d not often see, and I’d factored that into my thought process before my e-mail.

It’s also a good point about taking a screenshot, it hadn’t occurred to me in advance that there might be an issue….!

I’m still not too happy about the reply though, given it was a permitted route which a) wasn’t acknowledged in the reply and b) the initial gate line response if unsure, ought to have been either to look it up or to give the ‘benefit of the doubt’ rather than ‘no’.

I might send one follow up, but there’s only so far I want to push this, given that (after discussion!) I was allowed through.

 

[yorkie]

Reply from TfL below. Not entirely happy with it, as although there *was* a break of journey in Hackney of around 45 minutes, on the walk between the two stations, the route (and questioned entry point at Hackney Downs) was on a permitted route for the ticket, so to my mind the below hasn't really addressed the point I'd raised.

There's a limit to how much I want to push this though, given I was let through in the end - but the response recieved is below for anyone interested!

Thanks; this confirms that TfL/LO have very little disregard for the terms and conditions, as well as contract and consumer law.

Not surprising though, given their reputation.

 

[43094]

I have sent a reply as below, to hopefully help the understanding of the issue here. Beyond this, I won’t be persuing this, as in the end event there was no financial or time loss incurred.

Hello

Thanks for your reply regarding this.

My concern here, and the reason for flagging this up, is that the journey I undertook was using a valid route for the ticket held (including the walk between Hackney Central and Hackney Downs stations), but which was assumed by the member of staff at Hackney Downs to not be a valid route, without checking (and was only reconciled due to a number of polite explanations as to the route taken, on my part).

It is understandable that there will be occasions where discretion does become a factor, and it’s right that this will sometimes be shown accordingly, however the ticket and route in this instance didn’t require any discretion as it was valid ‘as presented’.

Therefore the ticket should have been accepted - if necessary involving a brief check by the gateline staff as to the route validity, if such technology was available to them. Had I not been confident of the route validity, it would have resulted in an additional fare being paid, when this wasn’t necessary given the ticket held.

Given that I did in the end travel using the purchased ticket, the above and initial email are more for information, as it may be that this highlights an opportunity for clarity, where tickets are used to change trains and therefore travel through a gateline at a location inbetween origin and destination.

With the above in mind, I hope this helps highlight my area of concern in this instance.

Regards

 

[Deerfold]

Reply from TfL below. Not entirely happy with it, as although there *was* a break of journey in Hackney of around 45 minutes, on the walk between the two stations, the route (and questioned entry point at Hackney Downs) was on a permitted route for the ticket, so to my mind the below hasn't really addressed the point I'd raised.

There's a limit to how much I want to push this though, given I was let through in the end - but the response recieved is below for anyone interested!

​

That reply from TfL reeks of AI or random cutting and pasting from a lucky dip of phrases.

 

[43094]

*Sigh*. See below the second reply recieved. It doesn't look like they've read my e-mails properly, or if the have, they've not understood them.

Given that (thanks to my persistence) in the end there was no loss of money or time involved, I'll leave this here.

Thank you for your reply.
Please accept my apologies for any inconvenience that this issue is causing you, I understand how frustrating this issue must be for you, and I can assure you that we will do our best to help.
TfL refund procedures for paper tickets within our department require that they be received in-house before a refund can progress. I will not be able to proceed without them.
Please send the physical ticket/tickets, quoting the reference number to the following address:
TfL Customer Services
9th Floor
Green Zone
5 Endeavour Square
Stratford
London E20 1JN
Once provided, we can then go to the next stage of your claim.
Thanks again for contacting us. If there is anything else we can help you with, please reply to this email. Alternatively, you can call us on 0343 222 1234 and we'll be happy to help you.
Kind regards

 

[yorkie]

*Sigh*. See below the second reply recieved. It doesn't look like they've read my e-mails properly, or if the have, they've not understood them.

Given that (thanks to my persistence) in the end there was no loss of money or time involved, I'll leave this here.

This is in line with my (low) expectations for TfL; they are clueless.

Things like "I can assure you that we will do our best to help" is a copy and paste job from someone who hasn't been given the training to even know where to begin helping.