Inconsistent TfL oyster charges

[jhy44]

I have an oyster card with a 26-30 railcard linked to it (thus giving me 1/3 off off-peak fares).
I have recently noticed that for some Zone 1-2 journeys I am charged £1.80, for others, £1.95.

For example, when I travel:
Clapham Junction to Victoria (using a direct rail service) I am charged £1.95.
Clapham Junction to Paddington (using a rail service, and then changing to the underground at West Brompton) I am charged £1.80.

The TfL fare finder confirms that these are indeed the correct fares. But why is this the case?
One would have expected if anything the Victoria fare would be cheaper as it doesn't involve a change between transport modes.

As someone who considers themselves a bit of a rail/ticketing guru I'm embarrassed that I'm quite so stumped at this.
If someone is able to explain why this is the case I'd be most appreciative.

 

[Horizon22]

Probably a difference in pricing between a National Rail only product and one using London Underground / London zonal fares.

The gateline at Victoria recognises this if you don't tap in again. Seems a bit weird though and I'm not an expert. Someone like @MikeWh is best placed to answer.

 

[bakerstreet]

I have an oyster card with a 26-30 railcard linked to it (thus giving me 1/3 off off-peak fares).
I have recently noticed that for some Zone 1-2 journeys I am charged £1.80, for others, £1.95.

For example, when I travel:
Clapham Junction to Victoria (using a direct rail service) I am charged £1.95.
Clapham Junction to Paddington (using a rail service, and then changing to the underground at West Brompton) I am charged £1.80.

The TfL fare finder confirms that these are indeed the correct fares. But why is this the case?
One would have expected if anything the Victoria fare would be cheaper as it doesn't involve a change between transport modes.

As someone who considers themselves a bit of a rail/ticketing guru I'm embarrassed that I'm quite so stumped at this.
If someone is able to explain why this is the case I'd be most appreciative.

I believe it may be because journey 1 is priced at National Rail rate and journey 2 at Tube rate (because Overground, although a national rail service, is priced by TfL and you therefore don’t get charged the mixed mode premium in this case. Even if the actual train you caught was operated by Southern. But most are London Overground operated between Clapham Junction and W Brompton.)

But as above @MikeWh is the expert on this.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There are different fares depending on whether you are travelling on National Rail services*, on TfL services, or on a combination.

(*Some National Rail services are charged at the TfL rate, broadly in line with this map- there used to be a map which highlighted this better, but I can’t find it now)

 

[miklcct]

There are different fares depending on whether you are travelling on National Rail services*, on TfL services, or on a combination.

(*Some National Rail services are charged at the TfL rate, broadly in line with this map- there used to be a map which highlighted this better, but I can’t find it now)

This map is not one which distinguish between NR / TfL modes, as the validity is not the same checking the GWR / Chiltern routes.

The simplest way to remember the routes is that:
- North of the river, all routes are TfL-priced except Thameslink / Great Northern north of West Hampstead / Finsbury Park which are NR-priced.
- South of the river, all routes are NR-priced except those with Overground services.
- Anglia price (normally between TfL and NR, but with some edge cases more expensive than NR) applies to Greater Anglia / Overground / Elizabeth line east of Stratford (East Anglia route) / north of Victoria line (West Anglia routes)
- Thameslink core is TfL priced, with the boundary at Elephant & Castle / London Bridge.

 

[bicbasher]

Clapham Junction to Paddington via West Brompton is wholly on the TfL standard fare scale, even if you used Southern between Clapham Jnc and West Brompton as it's served by London Overground, which is a TfL mode.
Clapham Junction to London Victoria is charged at the NR fare scale.

 

[miklcct]

One would have expected if anything the Victoria fare would be cheaper as it doesn't involve a change between transport modes.

To explain more, changing between NR-only and TfL-only lines for a journey involving zone 1 (not necessarily that the change point is in zone 1) will result in a sky-high premium fare, for example, travelling from Clapham Junction to Victoria (NR-only line), and switch to the tube to Paddington (TfL-only line). while the NR-only fare is slightly more than the TfL-only fare involving zone 1 (and significantly more outside zone 1).

TfL-only lines include all of the Underground (except Farringdon - Moorgate as it is historically served by NR), DLR and Elizabeth line core section (Paddington - Abbey Wood).
NR-only lines include NR lines south of the river (except those served by Overground) and the TL/GN lines north of the core. These lines are run by TOCs which refused to accept TfL fares (SWR, Southern, Southeastern, Thameslink & Great Northern outside the core).
All the other NR lines, mostly north of the river, are dual-scaled which won't result in the sky high fare in conjunction with either TfL or NR lines. These lines are run by either TfL itself, or by TOCs which accepted TfL fares mostly because of sharing common section with TfL lines (GWR, Chiltern, c2c, LNR). Greater Anglia is a special case which are also dual-scaled, but more expensive than standard TfL scale as it refused to accept standard TfL fares but the line was shared with TfL as a result of transferring the inner suburban services so a new scale was created as a compromise.

The section of the line between Clapham Junction and West Brompton is dual-scaled, as it is a TfL line which is also a National Rail line, so the travel from Clapham Junction to Paddington is wholly on TfL lines (Overground - Underground).

 

[Tetchytyke]

This map is not one which distinguish between NR / TfL modes, as the validity is not the same checking the GWR / Chiltern routes.

Absolutely, it’s broadly in line but not exact. Annoyingly there used to be a map which showed the different modes but I can’t find it anymore. It’s probably less needed since the idiotic Oyster Extension Permits were abolished.

 

[Watershed]

Absolutely, it’s broadly in line but not exact. Annoyingly there used to be a map which showed the different modes but I can’t find it anymore. It’s probably less needed since the idiotic Oyster Extension Permits were abolished.

As always, @MikeWh 's site delivers

 

[bicbasher]

It's complex even from my local station.

Let's take East and West Croydon for example.

Forest Hill to West Croydon is charged at the TfL scale as the journey is completely on London Overground, a TfL mode.

However if I go from Forest Hill to East Croydon which is usually done by changing at Norwood Junction for Southern or Thameslink, it's on the NR scale as it's considered a journey using National Rail TOCs which also include London Overground!

The only time I get a NR-T, mixed mode fare is if I change at a National Rail terminus such as London Bridge using Southern and then change for the tube in Zone 1.

If I want to go to Romford using LO and the Elizabeth line, to ensure I get the z-2-6 TfL-Ang fare, I have to touch the pink reader at Whitechapel as otherwise I get charged the default TfL Z 1-6 fare.

 

[jhy44]

Interesting.

I see that if I put in Clapham Junction to Victoria underground on the TfL fare finder, it is indeed the cheaper £1.80 (it must assume I route myself via West Brompton for this route).

I was already aware of the sky-high premium by changing from NR to Tube at Waterloo/Victoria, which is precisely why I never do that.

Case in point being when travelling from CJ to Elephant & Castle:
Normally I do this by taking the Overground to Clapham High Street and then tube from Clapham North to E&C. Cost? £1.05, £2.10 return.
When the Overground is suspended between CJ and Surrey Quays for engineering works (which seems to have been every other weekend for the 5 years I've been in London I simply do not understand why it seemingly needs 10 times more engineering works than any other British line), I have to change at Waterloo instead. Cost? £3.10, £6.40 return. More than triple the cost for the same journey.

I'll usually just walk from Waterloo to anywhere in Zone 1 as long as it's not raining.
However, it's useful to know that should I need to get somewhere a bit too far to walk from Waterloo (i.e., Angel, Old Street etc) then I can travel via West Brompton and greatly reduce my fare.

What a mad situation all of this is, imagine trying to explain to a foreigner who comes from a city which has a logical flat fare structure.

Thanks for all of the insights!

 

[miklcct]

I was already aware of the sky-high premium by changing from NR to Tube at Waterloo/Victoria, which is precisely why I never do that. I'll usually just walk from Waterloo to anywhere in Zone 1 as long as it's not raining.

You are lucky that your home station has a choice of both scales.

I live in Cricklewood and there is only an NR-scale route available from the station, which means if I have no choice but to pay the premium if I have to access places such as Bank or Canary Wharf, unless I walk / cycle to Kilburn / Willesden Green to pick up the Jubilee but it means a much more circuitous journey to the City compared to changing to the tube at Kentish Town which attracts the premium.

 

[Watershed]

Interesting.

I see that if I put in Clapham Junction to Victoria underground on the TfL fare finder, it is indeed the cheaper £1.80 (it must assume I route myself via West Brompton for this route).

I was already aware of the sky-high premium by changing from NR to Tube at Waterloo/Victoria, which is precisely why I never do that. I'll usually just walk from Waterloo to anywhere in Zone 1 as long as it's not raining.
However, it's useful to know that should I need to get somewhere a bit too far to walk from Waterloo (i.e., Angel, Old Street etc) then I can travel via West Brompton and greatly reduce my fare.

What a mad situation all of this is, imagine trying to explain to a foreigner who comes from a city which has a logical flat fare structure.

Thanks for all of the insights!

It's essentially the legacy of two different fare systems being rather unceremoniously forced together. Passengers historically always had to pay more to be able to use the Underground, other than on specific routes with interavailability, and this is why the mixed-mode "tax" was invented.

I don't think it should exist, but obviously you know that the government (which is both directly subsidising National Rail operators and indirectly underwriting TfL's losses) wouldn't agree to that without the single-mode fares increasing. Clearly that would disadvantage a lot of people, and they would rightly complain - probably more so than anyone who benefits from the new integrated fare structure would praise it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The mixed-mode “tax” only applies to single journeys, not caps, so I’d rather they left well alone rather than increase fares across the board.

 

[bicbasher]

In principle, the 'tax' is only for mixed-mode journeys which either go through Zone 1 or terminate in Zone 1. If you start a journey from a NR mode station and finish at a TfL mode station, for example, Blackheath to West India Quay using Southeastern and DLR via Lewisham, it'll be charged at the NR 2-3 single fare.