Incomplete Preserved Emus

[4SubAsociation]

In the Class 365 scrap movements + preservation discussion it was discussed that there is quite a few EMUs that are incomplete (Eg one vechile survives). I will try and answer as many as possible in this thread.

Bulleid 4DD 4002. From what i understand it was aimed to preserved a complete set. However not enough funds where raised and three carraiges where bought. (13003,13503 and 13004) and delivered to Ashford. 13503 was scrapped at Ashford in 1984.

3SUB 1293/4308. Intially put asside for preservation but only two cars (8143 and 8144). Of those only 8143 survives as vechile 8144 was used as spares.

Class 505 (MSJ&AR electric multiple units). There was a plan to have a motor coach preserved (from what i understand). However the price of scrap copper went up which made it out of reach.

Class 307. These where kept aside for potential PCV conversion. Intermediate and Motor Coaches where scrapped as these where not required.

Class 308. (308163) Was initally supposed to be a Class 305 trailer to be preserved but none where avalaible so a 308 was saved instead.

Class 309 (616, 624). Both units are ex departmental and both where shortened for testing of signalling systems. (3 carraiges in each).

Class 311 (311103). A complete set was preserved but one of the end carriages was in poor condition and scrapped.

Class 442 (442101). Only one end vechile designated for preservation.

Class 457 (457001). Two end vechiles. One sold to leasing company which was then reused in 455913. One of the trailers from 457 was attempted to be purchased but was inserted in 455912 as one of the vechiles had been used for plug door trials had issues.

Class 365 (365524/540). Three vechiles, two end and one trailer. The siding where it is planned to go is only three carraiges long (space limitations).


LNWR Oerlikon, Class 302, Class 312, Class 317, Class 332, Class 370 APT, Class 373 i am not sure what the reasons where for not preserving all the carraiges. Although i suspect on the final two space would be a big issue. There is quite a few london underground units that are incomplete, as well as Southern CEP, CIG, Vep etc where some units are incomplete. I have tried to focus this on sole surviors for now. But i will try and answer these if need be.

 

[StephenHunter]

Space at the relevant museums would be an issue; remember a four-car unit is going to be 80 metres long at least.

 

[4SubAsociation]

Space at the relevant museums would be an issue; remember a four-car unit is going to be 80 metres long at least.

Spot on with that point. When the Electric Railway Musuem closed at Coventry over 40 vechiles (some complete units) needed to be moved. It was good to see preservation come togther to help with rehoming alot of EMUs (including some of the above)

 

[yorksrob]

I'm glad it was a 308 Trailer that was saved as I have fond memories using them when I first moved to Leeds

 

[bramling]

In the Class 365 scrap movements + preservation discussion it was discussed that there is quite a few EMUs that are incomplete (Eg one vechile survives). I will try and answer as many as possible in this thread.

Bulleid 4DD 4002. From what i understand it was aimed to preserved a complete set. However not enough funds where raised and three carraiges where bought. (13003,13503 and 13004) and delivered to Ashford. 13503 was scrapped at Ashford in 1984.

3SUB 1293/4308. Intially put asside for preservation but only two cars (8143 and 8144). Of those only 8143 survives as vechile 8144 was used as spares.

Class 505 (MSJ&AR electric multiple units). There was a plan to have a motor coach preserved (from what i understand). However the price of scrap copper went up which made it out of reach.

Class 307. These where kept aside for potential PCV conversion. Intermediate and Motor Coaches where scrapped as these where not required.

Class 308. (308163) Was initally supposed to be a Class 305 trailer to be preserved but none where avalaible so a 308 was saved instead.

Class 309 (616, 624). Both units are ex departmental and both where shortened for testing of signalling systems. (3 carraiges in each).

Class 311 (311103). A complete set was preserved but one of the end carriages was in poor condition and scrapped.

Class 442 (442101). Only one end vechile designated for preservation.

Class 457 (457001). Two end vechiles. One sold to leasing company which was then reused in 455913. One of the trailers from 457 was attempted to be purchased but was inserted in 455912 as one of the vechiles had been used for plug door trials had issues.

Class 365 (365524/540). Three vechiles, two end and one trailer. The siding where it is planned to go is only three carraiges long (space limitations).


LNWR Oerlikon, Class 302, Class 312, Class 317, Class 332, Class 370 APT, Class 373 i am not sure what the reasons where for not preserving all the carraiges. Although i suspect on the final two space would be a big issue. There is quite a few london underground units that are incomplete, as well as Southern CEP, CIG, Vep etc where some units are incomplete. I have tried to focus this on sole surviors for now. But i will try and answer these if need be.

5 out of the 7 cars of the Northern Line’s “heritage train” of 1959 Tube stock were preserved. Two went to Alderney, two to Mangapps Farm, and one was retained by Alstom at Morden. The latter eventually ended up at Epping Ongar Railway where it can now be found at North Weald.

There are also numerous individual cars from various stocks in the museum at Acton.

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

No one has preserved a complete class 373. Yet.

 

[507020]

The Class 502 Liverpool - Southport/Ormskirk/Crossens no centre trailer exists but 2 ends (there was a motor at only one end) do.

And of course the APT.

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

The Class 502 Liverpool - Southport/Ormskirk/Crossens no centre trailer exists but 2 ends (there was a motor at only one end) do.

And of course the APT.

Only one car of the Liverpool Overhead Railway survives.

In the UK we only have one vehicle from a Japanese bullet train

 

[4SubAsociation]

Only one car of the Liverpool Overhead Railway survives.

In the UK we only have one vehicle from a Japanese bullet train

APT is covered under its class name of Class 370.

Liverpool Overhead is a interesting one. There is on Unrefurbished Driving Motor Carraige and One Refurbished Trailer Carraige which is owned by the sister group to the 4SUB Assocation. The Suburban Electric Railway Assocation. http://www.emus.co.uk/lor.htm

Eurostar/Class 373 will be extermemly unlikely a full rake being preserved. Where would you put it would be a major issue.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Re The Bulleid 4DD 4002. I think there is one other carriage that does still exist and they are trying to join these 2 up and refurbish them.

 

[4SubAsociation]

Re The Bulleid 4DD 4002. I think there is one other carriage that does still exist and they are trying to join these 2 up and refurbish them.

Yes that is correct. One is at a private site (13003s) and the other as the Northampton Ironstone (13004s). Both are motor coaches. I am not sure when the ironstone one will be moved.

 

[Cowley]

Yes that is correct. One is at a private site (13003s) and the other as the Northampton Ironstone (13004s). Both are motor coaches. I am not sure when the ironstone one will be moved.

I really like seeing threads like this in the preservation section @4SubAsociation. Thanks for taking the time to put all the information in one place.

A thread on complete EMUs would be interesting to do at some point (although I think it would be quite a short list).

 

[Strathclyder]

A thread on complete EMUs would be interesting to do at some point (although I think it would be quite a short list).

There's the hybrid 303 at Bo'ness (303032, formed of that unit's driving trailers and 303023's motor coach), but aside from that, I can only think of a few Southern EMUs plus the 38 stock train owned by TfL. There may be others I'm totally forgetting about though.

In the UK we only have one vehicle from a Japanese bullet train

Aye, a 0 series driving trailer at the NRM. The only Shinkansen vehicle preserved outwith Japan IIRC.

This is par for the course over in Japan too. A single vehicle (the driving trailer usually) from most series of Shinkansen (0, 100, 200 etc) at many of the major railway-themed museums in the country. Space constraints are obviously the main reason for this.

 

[gc4946]

In the Class 365 scrap movements + preservation discussion it was discussed that there is quite a few EMUs that are incomplete (Eg one vechile survives). I will try and answer as many as possible in this thread.

Class 505 (MSJ&AR electric multiple units). There was a plan to have a motor coach preserved (from what i understand). However the price of scrap copper went up which made it out of reach.

Two centre carriages still survive at Butterley, a third was scrapped 2006-07
http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=609 (no. 121)
http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=608 (no. 117)
http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=607 (no. 114, scrapped)

AFAIK they're being converted to loco-hauled stock.

 

[341o2]

Wikipedia has a list of both complete and incomplete Southern EMU's

I note one carriage from the Waterloo & City line has been preserved.

No mention of the 484's and didn't some of the 4VEC & 3TIS carriages return to LT to recreate a 1927 unit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preserved_EMUs_of_Southern_Railway

 

[StephenHunter]

If they're in operational service on the mainline, they're not 'preserved'.

 

[4SubAsociation]

I really like seeing threads like this in the preservation section @4SubAsociation. Thanks for taking the time to put all the information in one place.

A thread on complete EMUs would be interesting to do at some point (although I think it would be quite a short list).

Thank you for your kind words. Already ahead of you on that one. I regularlly keep updating the preserved emus document the RHRP with Graeme Gleaves. Already working on issue 11. Hopefully mid year that will come out. Link - https://www.rhrp.org.uk/surveystatus.htm

It was not upto date for a while and took alot of work to get it to this stage. The ammendments are at the bottom of the documents (my addition).

 

[tumbles]

Bulleid 4DD 4002. From what i understand it was aimed to preserved a complete set. However not enough funds where raised and three carraiges where bought. (13003,13503 and 13004) and delivered to Ashford. 13503 was scrapped at Ashford in 1984.

I *think* BR scrapped 13503 due to owed debts by the Ashford Steam Centre.

The two driving cars are owned by the 4DD group now after the NIRT owned one was passed to the group after the owner died. I think they'll looking to move it once the weather gets better and then hopefully get them both undercover.

Is the class 503 on the list or is that complete?

 

[WAO]

The Class 503 EMU is listed and we are indebted to the two Authors. It is complete in that it has all three cars but one has lost some interior fittings while at Birkenhead, where the driving trailer was retained for a time with thoughts of turning it into a museum cafe. While unrestored, the bodies are in better condition than was the Class 502 at preservation. The 502 Friends have worked miracles with their unit, which has needed much new steelwork. It is understood that the 502 centre car went to the MoD at Salisbury Plain, where it may still be, even if in little pieces.

The 503 is a very lightweight unit; only 77t for three cars and would make an excellent and economic battery conversion prototype, far cheaper and more useful than another new steam loco or bridge. Anyone out there interested?

WAO

 

[tumbles]

The Class 503 EMU is listed and we are indebted to the two Authors. It is complete in that it has all three cars but one has lost some interior fittings while at Birkenhead, where the driving trailer was retained for a time with thoughts of turning it into a museum cafe. While unrestored, the bodies are in better condition than was the Class 502 at preservation. The 502 Friends have worked miracles with their unit, which has needed much new steelwork. It is understood that the 502 centre car went to the MoD at Salisbury Plain, where it may still be, even if in little pieces.

The 503 is a very lightweight unit; only 77t for three cars and would make an excellent and economic battery conversion prototype, far cheaper and more useful than another new steam loco or bridge. Anyone out there interested?

WAO

I’d like to think improved and cheaper battery tech might see a few EMUs back to life one day.

 

[Taunton]

The New York Subway has an interesting approach. Their museum has only preserved one car from each generation of stock. However they are able to run several of them, from widely different generations, together as a train. So you can experience whatever generation you like in a run. They even make a feature of it, calling it the "Train of Many Colours". When not in use the cars all stand together in the museum, you can walk through them all. Here it is running :

Train of Many Colors - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[DanNCL]

The New York Subway has an interesting approach. Their museum has only preserved one car from each generation of stock. However they are able to run several of them, from widely different generations, together as a train. So you can experience whatever generation you like in a run. They even make a feature of it, calling it the "Train of Many Colours". When not in use the cars all stand together in the museum, you can walk through them all. Here it is running :

Train of Many Colors - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The New York Subway way of doing preservation is an interesting one, and one I'd love to see replicated elsewhere. They've actually got two such formations, the Train of Many Colors which is made up of cars of varying stocks from the A division (numbered lines), and the Train of Many Metals made up of cars of varying stocks from the B division (lettered lines). Both of these trains are in addition to the cars displayed in the Transit Museum (although cars are often swapped between the two trains and the museum), and both operate in regular public service from time to time too.

 

[4SubAsociation]

I *think* BR scrapped 13503 due to owed debts by the Ashford Steam Centre.

The two driving cars are owned by the 4DD group now after the NIRT owned one was passed to the group after the owner died. I think they'll looking to move it once the weather gets better and then hopefully get them both undercover.

Is the class 503 on the list or is that complete?

That is correct regarding the trailer coach from the DD. The other coaches got a reprive due to BR cutting Northmet (0-6-0 fireless) next door which was full of asbestos which alerted people to what was going on. It did not go down well from what i understand....

The Class 503 EMU is listed and we are indebted to the two Authors. It is complete in that it has all three cars but one has lost some interior fittings while at Birkenhead, where the driving trailer was retained for a time with thoughts of turning it into a museum cafe. While unrestored, the bodies are in better condition than was the Class 502 at preservation. The 502 Friends have worked miracles with their unit, which has needed much new steelwork. It is understood that the 502 centre car went to the MoD at Salisbury Plain, where it may still be, even if in little pieces.

The 503 is a very lightweight unit; only 77t for three cars and would make an excellent and economic battery conversion prototype, far cheaper and more useful than another new steam loco or bridge. Anyone out there interested?

WAO

The 503 is also owned by the Hertiage Electric Trains Trust (same people who own the 4SUB). If anyone is interested in the 503. Feel free to have a look at our website and appeals (shameless plug i know) https://www.hett.org.uk/

 

[A0]

Yes that is correct. One is at a private site (13003s) and the other as the Northampton Ironstone (13004s). Both are motor coaches. I am not sure when the ironstone one will be moved.

There's also a 3EPB and some other 3rd rail EMU coaches at Northampton Ironstone.

 

[33109]

There's 2 either vep or cig coaches:

The NRMs former driving trailer, now on the east kent railway.

Also driving trailer from a vep think it is that's at the mizens miniature railway. Lives underneath a replica canopy.

 

[pdeaves]

Also driving trailer from a vep think it is that's at the mizens miniature railway. Lives underneath a replica canopy.

This one (unit claims to be 3568):

 

[D365]

Eurostar/Class 373 will be extermemly unlikely a full rake being preserved. Where would you put it would be a major issue.

And just as important - what would be the point?

 

[WAO]

The shame over the 373's is not the lack of preservation but the scrapping of half the fleet only half way through its book life and probably much less through its potential service life. Yes, I know they were long trains and consumed prodigious amounts of power etc but stock should surely not be designed so narrowly to business specs that they can find no wider use when circumstances change.

BR had a word for it - "cascade".

WAO

 

[A0]

The shame over the 373's is not the lack of preservation but the scrapping of half the fleet only half way through its book life and probably much less through its potential service life. Yes, I know they were long trains and consumed prodigious amounts of power etc but stock should surely not be designed so narrowly to business specs that they can find no wider use when circumstances change.

BR had a word for it - "cascade".

WAO

But they were designed for a very specific purpose - and that was always known. As indeed I'm sure will be the HS2 stock when it's ordered. This does, inevitably, mean if the requirement for them changes such units are no longer required. They were ~ 20 years old when withdrawn which for heavily used high speed stock isn't a bad life - I'm not sure why you think they were withdrawn half-way through their book life ? Where's the evidence that the Eurostar fleet was meant to last 40 years ?

And BR didn't always cascade - the Deltics for example.

 

[43096]

But they were designed for a very specific purpose - and that was always known. As indeed I'm sure will be the HS2 stock when it's ordered. This does, inevitably, mean if the requirement for them changes such units are no longer required. They were ~ 20 years old when withdrawn which for heavily used high speed stock isn't a bad life - I'm not sure why you think they were withdrawn half-way through their book life ? Where's the evidence that the Eurostar fleet was meant to last 40 years ?

And BR didn't always cascade - the Deltics for example.

The Deltics were cascaded to ECML semi-fasts once the HSTs came in, weren’t they?