Incident near Harling Road 10/4

[Sunset route]

I have been told that neither the tractor driver or the train driver were at fault.
You can use the process of elimination to come to your own conclusion.

I am 100% confident that RAIB will support what I have been told.

I've just looked at the wording on the notice boards for both of our EUWCs (currently signed OOU for probably the same reason this crossing is), but it does clearly state the "Drivers of large or slow vehicles or of animals, phone for permission to cross". A tractor and trailer would fall within that category.

 

[LAX54]

I've just looked at the wording on the notice boards for both of our EUWCs (currently signed OOU for probably the same reason this crossing is), but it does clearly state the "Drivers of large or slow vehicles or of animals, phone for permission to cross". A tractor and trailer would fall within that category.

Agreed, like 'oldsiggie' said, regardless of red / green / whatever colour lights, such a vehicle calls before crossing, or should do
so bagged over is not relevent

 

[2HAP]

"Large" is defined as over 61'6" (18.75 m) long or 9'6" (2.9 m) wide.
"Slow" is defined as 5 mph (8 kmh) or less.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Signs_at_the_level_crossing_-_geograph.org.uk_-_443093.jpg

Did the tractor and trailer fall into the above category?

 

[AndyPJG]

a friend sent me this link with lots of pictures, the one with no comment will be of interest to the RAIB.
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/in...level-crossing-stupidity/page-54#entry2269328

One of the photographs in that link has a sign with:-

Stop
Always telephone before crossing with vehicles or animals to find out if there is time to cross

Tell the crossing operator if the vehicle is large or slow moving

I interpret that as a requirement to call with any vehicle.

 

[Llanigraham]

"Large" is defined as over 61'6" (18.75 m) long or 9'6" (2.9 m) wide.
"Slow" is defined as 5 mph (8 kmh) or less.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Signs_at_the_level_crossing_-_geograph.org.uk_-_443093.jpg

Did the tractor and trailer fall into the above category?

There is no specification for speeds or weights in the Rule Book, which is what we signallers work to.

 

[Sunset route]

One of the photographs in that link has a sign with:-
I interpret that as a requirement to call with any vehicle.

The wording on our EUWC are slightly different but they were commissioned about a year after the one involved in this incident, if indeed it was commissioned with the re-signalling as ours were.

As ours are currently signed OOU, all users "must" call to ask to cross and "must" call to confirm that they are over safely and all gates are closed. A huge increase in safety critical phone coms for the signaller.

 

[2HAP]

Llanigraham, I was just pointing out how "large" and "slow" are defined to the motorist. However, if the sign says "always telephone if crossing with vehicles", then that means the tractor driver is at fault if he had not telephoned before crossing. All will be revealed in the RAIB report.

 

[Zoidberg]

...

However, if the sign says "always telephone if crossing with vehicles", then that means the tractor driver is at fault if he had not telephoned before crossing. All will be revealed in the RAIB report.

From post #75

I have been told that neither the tractor driver or the train driver were at fault.
You can use the process of elimination to come to your own conclusion.

I am 100% confident that RAIB will support what I have been told.

 

[2HAP]

I'd almost never suggest that a train driver that collided with a vehicle on a level crossing was at fault. I also added a big qualifier in my statement -IF (and it's a very big if).

Had the tractor driver telephoned for permission and it had been granted (this would have been recorded, would it not?), then that puts the blame fair and square at the other end of the telephone. However, the RAIB haven't produced their report, or even an initial story yet. Am happy to wait.

 

[Zoidberg]

I'd almost never suggest that a train driver that collided with a vehicle on a level crossing was at fault. I also added a big qualifier in my statement -IF (and it's a very big if).

Had the tractor driver telephoned for permission and it had been granted (this would have been recorded, would it not?), then that puts the blame fair and square at the other end of the telephone. However, the RAIB haven't produced their report, or even an initial story yet. Am happy to wait.

It's a shame that one usually has to wait about 12 months for the RAIB to report.

 

[najaB]

Had the tractor driver telephoned for permission and it had been granted (this would have been recorded, would it not?)...

Yes, it would be recorded.

 

[Zoidberg]

The RAIB has provided an update ...

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/collision-near-thetford

Tractor driver given permission to cross confirmed.

At 12:30 on Sunday 11 April 2016 a train travelling from Norwich to Cambridge collided with an agricultural tractor and trailer at Hockham Road level crossing. The tractor driver was seriously injured, and the train driver and several passengers received minor injuries. The tractor was destroyed, and the train was badly damaged.

Hockham Road level crossing is on a private road near Thetford, Norfolk, and also carries a public footpath. Vehicle users must open and close the crossing gates themselves, and at the time of the accident they had to use the telephone to obtain permission from a signaller at Cambridge, before going over the crossing. In 2012, the crossing had been provided with red and green lights which informed users whether it was safe to cross, but this equipment had been intentionally decommissioned at the time of the accident.

The tractor driver was given permission to cross the line, and had reached the mid-point of the crossing when his vehicle was struck by train 1K77, the 12:03 Norwich to Cambridge service, which was travelling at 84 mph (135 km/h). There were 135 passengers and two crew on the train, which did not derail and came to a stop 410 metres beyond the crossing

...

 

[scott118]

Local news reports..

http://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2016...ermission-to-cross-train-tracks-before-crash/

Tractor driver DID get permission to cross train tracks before crash

 

[LAX54]

Local news reports..

http://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2016...ermission-to-cross-train-tracks-before-crash/

How long after ringing did he take to actually start to cross ?

 

[scott118]

How long after ringing did he take to actually start to cross ?

and how would i know that? how long's a piece of string? Twice the distance from the middle to the end?

It's the local news report, derived i should imagine, from the RAIB document. These are not my views. I'm sure your particular question will be reported on, upon the RAIB findings and 'blame/reasons' apportioned, accordingly.

 

[Zoidberg]

and how would i know that...

I do not think that there was any expectation that you would provide an answer. swills seemed, to me, to be thinking out loud. But the timeline will, undoubtedly, feature in the RAIB report.

 

[zaax]

A bulletin released on the RAIB’s website has said the driver of the tractor had been given permission to cross the railway.

“Vehicle users must open and close the crossing gates themselves, and at the time of the accident they had to use the telephone to obtain permission from a signaller at Cambridge, before going over the crossing,” the bulletin said.

 

[HLE]

Interesting.

 

[2HAP]

How long it would take to cross would depend on whether or not the tractor driver opened the gates before telephoning for permission, or after receiving permission.

 

[LAX54]

and how would i know that? how long's a piece of string? Twice the distance from the middle to the end?

It's the local news report, derived i should imagine, from the RAIB document. These are not my views. I'm sure your particular question will be reported on, upon the RAIB findings and 'blame/reasons' apportioned, accordingly.

Sorry, I was just saying....how long between the call and starting to cross? at the moment we don't know, the investigation is not over yet, it could have been 1 min, 2 mins or even 6 or 7 mins ! and that could reflect on who made the error.

 

[zaax]

Would he have not had to phone back to say he was across, as he might have broken down as he was crossing.

Was the driver actully in the cab or was he somewhere else

 

[Will Marriot]

A bulletin released on the RAIB’s website has said the driver of the tractor had been given permission to cross the railway.

“Vehicle users must open and close the crossing gates themselves, and at the time of the accident they had to use the telephone to obtain permission from a signaller at Cambridge, before going over the crossing,” the bulletin said.

Has hit the BBC as well.

Be interesting to see the results of the investigation on this one.

 

[scott118]

Sorry, I was just saying....how long between the call and starting to cross? at the moment we don't know, the investigation is not over yet, it could have been 1 min, 2 mins or even 6 or 7 mins ! and that could reflect on who made the error.

I appreciate that fella...

 

[Will Marriot]

The last TPWS signal before the contact point is about 1.8 miles, just before Harlington Station but there is a semaphore at one mile away. I'm guessing the signal before Harlington should have been red as the semaphore would be too close to the crossing? Between that and Eccles station further up the line there are only semaphores.

 

[2HAP]

Semaphores?

I thought all the semaphores had been replaced by colour light signals in 2012. BTW, the stations are Eccles Road and Harling Road. Eccles and Harlington stations are not even in Norfolk!

 

[Tomnick]

The last TPWS signal before the contact point is about 1.8 miles, just before Harlington Station but there is a semaphore at one mile away. I'm guessing the signal before Harlington should have been red as the semaphore would be too close to the crossing? Between that and Eccles station further up the line there are only semaphores.

If the vehicle movement wasn't considered to be large or slow (there isn't a definition for either, in this context, as far as I'm aware), then there's no requirement for signal protection to be provided. As above, though, it's all been resignalled recently anyway (but a semaphore stop signal one mile away would normally be perfectly adequate if signal protection was required).

 

[scott118]

Semaphores?

I thought all the semaphores had been replaced by colour light signals in 2012. BTW, the stations are Eccles Road and Harling Road. Eccles and Harlington stations are not even in Norfolk!

Correct. There are no semiphore signals along this route.

 

[Llanigraham]

How long after ringing did he take to actually start to cross ?

Doesn't matter how long he took.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The last TPWS signal before the contact point is about 1.8 miles, just before Harlington Station but there is a semaphore at one mile away. I'm guessing the signal before Harlington should have been red as the semaphore would be too close to the crossing? Between that and Eccles station further up the line there are only semaphores.

Why do you think the signal would be too close to the crossing?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If the vehicle movement wasn't considered to be large or slow (there isn't a definition for either, in this context, as far as I'm aware), then there's no requirement for signal protection to be provided. As above, though, it's all been resignalled recently anyway (but a semaphore stop signal one mile away would normally be perfectly adequate if signal protection was required).

In our area a tractor is DEFINITELY classed as a slow vehicle!

 

[snowball]

If the vehicle movement wasn't considered to be large or slow (there isn't a definition for either, in this context, as far as I'm aware)

Some LCs (I haven't checked which types) have signs that define LARGE and SLOW:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=l...TFrBcgQ_AUIBigB&dpr=0.9#imgrc=vqSyDKr0gT8mYM:

 

[AndyPJG]

No size defination is relevant in this instance, see my post #94.

"...all vehicles.." to ring.