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Incident near Bethnal Green Jan 20th

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EM2

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As someone who has dealt with the travelling public face-to-face, and also make public address announcements to them, I have had more feedback saying that they do not like to hear 'a person hit by a train' or 'a fatality' than I have from those saying that they'd prefer to hear that.
 
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misterredmist

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As someone who has dealt with the travelling public face-to-face, and also make public address announcements to them, I have had more feedback saying that they do not like to hear 'a person hit by a train' or 'a fatality' than I have from those saying that they'd prefer to hear that.

Does that mean you should not tell people the truth, just what they want to hear ? Over protectionism at it's best......... at least nobody is left in any doubt as to the reason for the delay and the fact that nothing will be moving any time soon........ MADNESS
 

DarloRich

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Do tell me more about this study; I'd like to know whose daft idea it was and which birdbrain(s) decided to implement it.

If it the one I have seen it was commission by NR, the TOC's and the Samaritans.

They have some experience of dealing with people facing life crisis and the fall out of those crisis.
 

EM2

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Does that mean you should not tell people the truth, just what they want to hear ? Over protectionism at it's best......... at least nobody is left in any doubt as to the reason for the delay and the fact that nothing will be moving any time soon........ MADNESS
We do tell them that 'nothing will be moving any time soon', give them their alternative travel options, and a very rough timeframe as to when services might restart, and they're generally happy to accept that.
 

QueensCurve

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http://www.transportfocus.org.uk/research/publications/communicating-suicides-on-the-railway

Simple google search brings up the details.

As for your huge queues comments - well take it from me that a considerable amount of people don't need to know the ins and outs of the delay (although I'm more than happy to explain what's happened and how that affects their journey) and are only concerned about the consequences for their journey going forward ie. so am I now on a bus/can I use that XC train/what about missed connections. And the latter is exactly the same irrespective of what wording was initially used to describe the incident.

In the same measure, you don't do 1-2-1s at info points in serious disruption, you mill around on platforms and approach small groups. People's ears generally also start paying attention, so you end up with people huddling round.


For me, “emergency services dealing with an incident” is ridiculously vague and obscure. There are many types of incident emergency services could be dealing with.

The "person hit by a train" is clear and relatively unambiguous. There may be several reasons why a person would be hit by a train, not just suicide.
 

EM2

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For me, “emergency services dealing with an incident” is ridiculously vague and obscure. There are many types of incident emergency services could be dealing with.

The "person hit by a train" is clear and relatively unambiguous. There may be several reasons why a person would be hit by a train, not just suicide.

'There are many types of incident emergency services could be dealing with' and that's vague and obscure.
'There may be several reasons why a person would be hit by a train' but that's not vague and obscure?

The only thing that most people want to know is 'when will I be able to get a train?'. If they're told it's going to be some time (and that amount of time varies from person to person) then they want to know if there's an alternative route that they can use.
As long as they have that information, in my experience, they don't care why. Nothing that they can do can change what's happening. They might grumble and moan, but as long as they get the information they need, they generally accept it whatever the reason.
 

455driver

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As long as they have that information, in my experience, they don't care why. Nothing that they can do can change what's happening. They might grumble and moan, but as long as they get the information they need, they generally accept it whatever the reason.
Agreed, "a person hit by a train" is quite clear and means it is going to take a while to sort out so the passengers will know to look for an alternative route, "emergency services dealing with an incident" could be anything from a person taken ill on a train which would take 5 minutes to sort out or a fatality which would take 90 minutes so its a worthless statement from the passengers point of view!
 

EM2

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Agreed, "a person hit by a train" is quite clear and means it is going to take a while to sort out so the passengers will know to look for an alternative route, "emergency services dealing with an incident" could be anything from a person taken ill on a train which would take 5 minutes to sort out or a fatality which would take 90 minutes so its a worthless statement from the passengers point of view!
But at no station I've ever visited, or worked at, is that the only information you get.
Customers are never just told that 'emergency services are dealing with an incident', they're told what the impact on their journey is, such as 'the 19:55 service to Sheffield is delayed by twenty minutes due to emergency services dealing with an earlier incident at Luton' or 'due to emergency services dealing with an incident at East Croydon, all lines through this station are blocked and no services can run', and then explain the alternatives that they have.
 

HH

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But at no station I've ever visited, or worked at, is that the only information you get.
Customers are never just told that 'emergency services are dealing with an incident', they're told what the impact on their journey is, such as 'the 19:55 service to Sheffield is delayed by twenty minutes due to emergency services dealing with an earlier incident at Luton' or 'due to emergency services dealing with an incident at East Croydon, all lines through this station are blocked and no services can run', and then explain the alternatives that they have.

Staff at Liverpool Street were clearly just trying to clear people from the station, which is possibly understandable, but what they were giving out was disinformation. They started saying that nothing would be running before 1900, and later that nothing would be running before 1930 - the latter probably only 15 minutes before trains started running again.
 

EM2

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They started saying that nothing would be running before 1900, and later that nothing would be running before 1930 - the latter probably only 15 minutes before trains started running again.
Which is what they would have been told. The staff on site would have estimated how long it would take to reopen the lines, and pass that information on.
It's a pretty rum do when staff are being taken to task for something taking less time than was estimated. If you took your car for a service, they said it would be ready in three hours, but was actually done in two, you'd be quite happy!
 

JW16

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The location made it difficult for emergency services to reach the scene. I am hearing that a very unusual operation (in the UK anyway) was used to remove the body from the scene. Liverpool St, Stratford & Underground stations had to close entry/exits due to dangerous crowding.

What was the unusual operation required?
 

HH

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Which is what they would have been told. The staff on site would have estimated how long it would take to reopen the lines, and pass that information on.
It's a pretty rum do when staff are being taken to task for something taking less time than was estimated. If you took your car for a service, they said it would be ready in three hours, but was actually done in two, you'd be quite happy!

Ridiculous. Suicides on the line have ALWAYS taken a shade under two hours for years. When I queried the timings the member of staff backed down, but still continued to give out the disinformation to punters. People were making bad decisions, like catching buses to Stratford, based on what they were being told.

It's nothing like taking your car for a service, unless the man servicing your car tells you to take a bus home as it will take at least 3 hours and then rings you up just as you're getting off the bus to tell you your car's ready. And if you tell me that wouldn't be ****ed off with that, then I'll call you liar.
 

LAX54

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Staff at Liverpool Street were clearly just trying to clear people from the station, which is possibly understandable, but what they were giving out was disinformation. They started saying that nothing would be running before 1900, and later that nothing would be running before 1930 - the latter probably only 15 minutes before trains started running again.

The radio were also saying nothing until at least 1900, then moved to 1930, but of course investigation, clearing up, moving the train out of the way is not an exact science, so not 'disinformation' just info based on what was coming from the TOC Control and those on site.
 

EM2

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Ridiculous. Suicides on the line have ALWAYS taken a shade under two hours for years. When I queried the timings the member of staff backed down, but still continued to give out the disinformation to punters. People were making bad decisions, like catching buses to Stratford, based on what they were being told.
The incident occurred at 16:17, according to Yorkie. Two hours takes us to 18:17. Neither you or I know what information was received from site, so it's a bit strong to say that it was disinformation that was passed.
I've just dealt with a trespass incident that lasted over three hours. In my experience, that's three times longer than normal. And right up until I was told that the lines were open, I was advising people to use alternative routes. because that the information I was given.
And if you tell me that wouldn't be ****ed off with that, then I'll call you liar.
You can call me what you like, but I can assure that it's true. I'd trade minor inconvenience for having my car back early.
 

HH

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The radio were also saying nothing until at least 1900, then moved to 1930, but of course investigation, clearing up, moving the train out of the way is not an exact science, so not 'disinformation' just info based on what was coming from the TOC Control and those on site.

Sorry, all that says to me is that the disinfomation came from further up the chain. I've seen it happen regularly, so it must be deliberate. I don't know who's ultimately responsible, but someone is feeding false information, because every incident finishes considerably earlier than advised to the paying public.

Smart punters ignore what's said, find the time of the incident, add 2 hours and plan around that. Then, like me, they probably got a seat on the first train out.
 

QueensCurve

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It does. For AGA at least this is the first major test of the new "cannot mention fatality at all" policy that has been rolled out nationwide. Looks like it has gone down like a lead balloon.

A "person hit by a train" is not synonymous with a fatality. It leaves an element of doubt as some people survive a glancing or low speed impact.

The "emergency services dealing with an incident" line is so vague as to be useless.
 

SPADTrap

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Ridiculous. Suicides on the line have ALWAYS taken a shade under two hours for years. When I queried the timings the member of staff backed down, but still continued to give out the disinformation to punters. People were making bad decisions, like catching buses to Stratford, based on what they were being told.

The likely reason they backed down is because they realised some people's ignorance can't be reasoned with and their time was better spent elsewhere, like banging their heads against the walls on platform 10A at Stratford :roll:
 
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TheEdge

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Sorry, all that says to me is that the disinfomation came from further up the chain. I've seen it happen regularly, so it must be deliberate. I don't know who's ultimately responsible, but someone is feeding false information, because every incident finishes considerably earlier than advised to the paying public.

There also tends to be a bit of extra time padded in these times. I wasn't there so obviously I don't know exactly what happened so here comes some informed conjecture about the sort of thing that happens.

NR reckon the line should be clear by 1900, TOC says 1930. This gives both the TOC and NR a little breathing space. If at 1900 as planned the line is clear, bravo, all is well. If at 1900 the MOM is still confirming everyone and thing is off the line and it isn't handed back till 1915 then there still isn't an issue, lines are still open by 1930 and things start moving. If the TOC announces the line will be open at 1900 and the line isn't handed back until 1915 then there is another barrage of misinformation to passengers comments about why wasn't the truth told?

A fatality doesn't take two hours. It takes as long as it takes. If it is someone who walks out at a rural crossing, it takes a lot less (easy access, simple infrastructure etc) that, for example, a person hit on a raised section of railway above London at rush hour. Absolutely no one at any point can give any sort of exact finish time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ridiculous. Suicides on the line have ALWAYS taken a shade under two hours for years. When I queried the timings the member of staff backed down, but still continued to give out the disinformation to punters. People were making bad decisions, like catching buses to Stratford, based on what they were being told.

Always, you willing to put money on that?

The body at Southend earlier this week? The one at Brentwood a few years ago that saw the line closed for most of the morning? The one at Wymondham a few months ago that happened around 1830 but the incident train wasn't able to be moved till late that night? The BTP, NR and various specialist undertakers and cleaning teams are well oiled and do tend to be fairly rapid (relatively) but there is no always about it.
 

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Ridiculous. Suicides on the line have ALWAYS taken a shade under two hours for years. When I queried the timings the member of staff backed down, but still continued to give out the disinformation to punters. People were making bad decisions, like catching buses to Stratford, based on what they were being told.
There's no reason dealing with a person hit by train incident has to take so long; but I agree with the sentiment at the slow pace Network Rail and the train operating companies deal with incidents (of all kinds) that two hours is a good benchmark for the estimated resumption of service, which can be revised as soon as a manager gets to site.

It entirely depends on the location, the state of the person and cleanup required, the availability of staff and police, and the evidence. Whilst usually it's over much quicker if the person is deceased, I have been involved in one, and told about another, that were sorted out fairly quickly (less than Halfhour) as the person involved was able to crawl out from underneath the train themselves after they regained consciousness!
 

dk1

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What was the unusual operation required?

The body was taken on the train concerned due to the inacceciblity of the location. This helped reduce the time the U&D main lines where blocked as this in itself was causing dangerous crowding either side of the incident & also to reduce the delay for the 500 passengers aboard the 1600 ex-Lst.
 

GB

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There's no reason dealing with a person hit by train incident has to take so long; but I agree with the sentiment at the slow pace Network Rail and the train operating companies deal with incidents (of all kinds) that two hours is a good benchmark for the estimated resumption of service, which can be revised as soon as a manager gets to site.

It entirely depends on the location, the state of the person and cleanup required, the availability of staff and police, and the evidence. Whilst usually it's over much quicker if the person is deceased, I have been involved in one, and told about another, that were sorted out fairly quickly (less than Halfhour) as the person involved was able to crawl out from underneath the train themselves after they regained consciousness!

You state there is no reason why dealing with such an incident has to take so long but then go onto list some of the exact reasons why it CAN take so long.

If you have ever read the many network rail incident reports after and during fatalities you will see that Network Rails priority is the resumption of services as soon as possible.

90 minutes is the industry target to get lines opened but this can be hugely affected by...

Classification of the scene (Suspicious, unexplained, deliberate act)
Classification of the body
Available access to the site.
Damage to train and/or line side equipment
 
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TDK

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You state there is no reason why dealing with such an incident has to take so long but then go onto list some of the exact reasons why it CAN take so long.

If you have ever read the many network rail incident reports after and during fatalities you will see that Network Rails priority is the resumption of services as soon as possible.

90 minutes is the industry target to get lines opened but this can be hugely affected by...

Classification of the scene (Suspicious, unexplained, deliberate act)
Classification of the body
Available access to the site.
Damage to train and/or line side equipment

You can add that the line can only be open once the BTP assesses that it is not a crime scene. One incident I attended the line was shut for 5 hours due to the fact that there were suspicious circumstances with the fatality. It takes as long as it takes to reopen a line and there are too many underlying factors to list here on the reasons for the "recommended time" being adhered to.
 

Blindtraveler

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Personally speeking Im quite happy with not being told its a fatalitty but person hit by train is fine and youd get less **** from punters than you would if it was the old dealing with an incident catch all
 

Bald Rick

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The process, assuming a fatality, is:

Incident happens

Driver stops train

Driver advises siggy and guard if there is one

Siggy advises control, and in third rail areas, Electrical Control to discharge the current.

Control advise BTP, MOM, TOC and National Control

Control declares major incident and sets up Command Structure (GOLD SILVER BRONZE(S))

MOM and BTP response officers deployed from wherever they happen to be.

If there is any suggestion that the individual survived, paramedics deployed

National Control advise undertakers who deploy from their base.

TOC deploy a replacement driver and / or Driver Manager

Driver, if in a reasonable state of mind, is patched through to BTP Duty Inspector via GSM-R to give a statement that advises circumstances of incident.

BTP duty inspector declares incident based on drivers statement - non suspicious, unexplained or suspicious.

If Driver unable to give statement, or the incident is not 'non suspicious', BTP will seek other witnesses and evidence on site to determine further.

MOM and BTP arrive on site, and conduct initial assessment, reporting back to their respective controls. Further resources, eg fitters for the train, or specialist cleaners may be requested, which control then deploy.

If non-suspicious, recovery of body can commence. If body is also out of public view, including from passing trains, unaffected lines can be reopened (and third rail recharged), once all personnel are confirmed clear of those lines.

If the incident is not declared 'non suspicious' after initial BTP investigations are complete, the body must be forensically recovered by Scenes of Crimes Officers (SOCO). They must be called to site by the BTP.

Body recovered, and either removed from railway property (by paramedics if involved, sometimes by BTP or MOMs, although neither are obliged to) or screened from the public for later recovery when undertakers arrive.

At this point, unaffected lines can reopen (and third rail recharged) once all personnel are confirmed clear of the track.

If train undamaged, it can be moved once the replacement driver arrives, or if the incident driver feels up to it (those that do have balls of steel in my opinion, and that includes the fairer sex).

Train will proceed to next suitable station to detrain passengers and be taken out of service, and sent to nearest depot for a full check by fitters.

Area of incident checked for any sign of incident. If all ok, line (and station, if affected) reopened. If not, the line or station must remain closed until specialist cleaners have done their work.

Put estimated times against all of that; some will have significant variation depending on incident location and the location of the nearest MOM, BTP response officers, and replacement driver. If SOCO are involved it adds at least 2 hours. If fitters are required, at least an extra hour.

In my experience, approximately, 60% are immediately declared non-suspicious, 30% are initially declared unexplained but subsequently declared non-suspicious following further site investigation before the incident concludes, 9% remain unexplained until the incident concludes, and fewer than 1% are suspicious.
 
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HH

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OK I exaggerated when I said always. But the vast majority on the GEML take around 2 hours. When AGA started giving out the 19:30 time it was only about 15 minutes away from re-opening. Whatever anyone says, there isn't an excuse for that.
 

Dieseldriver

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There's no reason dealing with a person hit by train incident has to take so long; but I agree with the sentiment at the slow pace Network Rail and the train operating companies deal with incidents (of all kinds) that two hours is a good benchmark for the estimated resumption of service, which can be revised as soon as a manager gets to site.

Explain why you don't think the clear up after a fatality should take so long. They could probably do with some extra help if you fancy attending and picking up some of the bits?
 

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Explain why you don't think the clear up after a fatality should take so long. They could probably do with some extra help if you fancy attending and picking up some of the bits?
Did you read my post in full and the one I quoted? As said by someone else, the industry target is 90 Min, and from my own personal case of being involved in incidents, I'm aware of many taking less than this.

Not sure what point you're trying to make about "picking up some of the bits" other than perhaps a misguided attempt to make me feel squeamish? It isn't the cleanup that takes time most of the time anyway.
 

SPADTrap

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Did you read my post in full and the one I quoted? As said by someone else, the industry target is 90 Min, and from my own personal case of being involved in incidents, I'm aware of many taking less than this.

Not sure what point you're trying to make about "picking up some of the bits" other than perhaps a misguided attempt to make me feel squeamish? It isn't the cleanup that takes time most of the time anyway.

It is when you can't find the body.
 
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