Inadequate Class 700 first class demarcation

[All Line Rover]

Having travelled on a Class 700 for the first time today, I was less than impressed at GTR's attempt to properly demarcate the first class accommodation. (I am aware that there is a thread discussing the Class 700's in general. It is absurdly long and I consider it best to confine discussion of this particular issue to a specific thread.)

The first class accommodation at both ends of the train is clearly labelled as "first class", including on antimacassars attached to all of the seats.

On departure from St Pancras (travelling south), the internal information displays (which thankfully do not appear to be large enough to display any meaningful third party advertising!) alternated between:

• Left screen: "Destination". Right screen: [Destination station] (top row), [Scrolling calling points] (bottom row).
• Left screen: "Next Stop". Right screen: [Next station] (top row), [Scrolling calling points] (bottom row).

No other information was provided. Until, that is, when the train departed Blackfriars (non-stop to East Croydon), whereupon the information displays alternated between (on the right screen; no information of substance was displayed on the left screen):

• "The next station is: [next station]"
• "This train terminates at: [destination station]"
• ["TfL network status" display]
• ["Train loading indicator" display]
• ["Toilets on this train" display]
• [CCTV in operation notice]

Except, it turned out, within the "first class" portion of the rear carriage, where the message "This area may be used by customers holding standard class tickets" was displayed instead of the CCTV notice. This was not displayed at any point between St Pancras and Blackfriars.

In the rear carriage, there is a display either side of the door separating the "first class" accommodation from the standard class accommodation. The display within the standard class accommodation displayed the CCTV message. Only the display within the first class accommodation, which is not visible to standard class passengers, displayed the "this area may be used..." message. There is a second display further down inside the "first class" accommodation, visible to passengers seated either side, but this is so far away from the standard class accommodation that it is not visible to standard class passengers unless they have good eyesight and deliberately stare at the display until the message in question is displayed (which, with various messages being alternated between, may take some time).

First Capital Connect used to penalise passengers for sitting in first class accommodation that was inadequately demarcated. Now that first class is clearly demarcated, how is it acceptable for GTR to display a message that seems to declassify first class accommodation (even though it does not say this explicitly) only in the, apparent, first class accommodation that, being at the rear of the train, passengers holding standard class tickets should never be inside and therefore should not, in theory, be able to read.

How is it acceptable for GTR to confine a purported declassification notice to a single message on a digital display lasting a few seconds that is not even on rotation for much of the train's journey (e.g. between St Pancras and Blackfriars)? What justification would a passenger give to an RPI boarding at St Pancras for occupying the "first class" accommodation? How would a passenger that was aware of the message from a previous journey (having seen it e.g. between Blackfriars and East Croydon) have any idea, the next time they depart St Pancras, that GTR's declassification policy has not been amended? In fact, is the "first class" accommodation even declassified between St Pancras and Blackfriars?

Finally, how is it acceptable for GTR to provide first class accommodation at only one end of a 12 car commuter train? Many stations on the Thameslink route - City Thameslink, Blackfriars, East Croydon, etc - have important exits at both ends of their platforms. Are first class season ticket holders working in an office near Holborn Viaduct, for example, genuinely expected to walk the full length of a 12 car train having alighted on a journey from, say, St Albans? And how are first class ticket holders getting value from their ticket when what is and what is not first class accommodation is so unclear?

 

[WatcherZero]

Standard class may have been overcrowded and staff telling people there were seats available in First.

 

[jopsuk]

It's a pity that the franchise/management contract specification and/or the commercial strategy doesn't allow for 1st class to be entirely removed from the route (a bit like GA are doing for all but Norwich Express, showing it can be done)

 

[AM9]

... How is it acceptable for GTR to confine a purported declassification notice to a single message on a digital display lasting a few seconds that is not even on rotation for much of the train's journey (e.g. between St Pancras and City Thameslink)? What justification would a passenger give to an RPI boarding at St Pancras for occupying the "first class" accommodation? How would a passenger that was aware of the message from a previous journey (having seen it e.g. between City Thameslink and East Croydon) have any idea, the next time they depart St Pancras, that GTR's declassification policy has not been amended? In fact, is the "first class" accommodation even declassified between St Pancras and City Thameslink? ...

If you purchase a standard class ticket, that only gives you the right to travel in standard class accomodation. Only if you had explicitly seen indication of the easement on a given journey should you take advantage of it. I don't see why there should be encouragement for passengers to habitually expect to travel 1st class when they buy standard class tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a pity that the franchise/management contract specification and/or the commercial strategy doesn't allow for 1st class to be entirely removed from the route (a bit like GA are doing for all but Norwich Express, showing it can be done)

Or could they simply provide First Class on all their routes? I don't understand the declassification here (nor that on Southern metro services, particularly the split of it existing on MK-Croydon services for only part of the route). If it exists on the train as diagrammed it might as well be bringing in money.

 

[Failed Unit]

How many first class seats does the 8 car have. I know it is 52 on the 12 car. If you look at a 12 car 365 it has 72 first class seats on a 12 car formation and 48 on an 8 so you can see why they went for the number.

Thameslink typically has less accommodation than great northern. You would hope the offer advance first class tickets off-peak rather than declassify it. Let's say it is £20 for the off-peak return, sell and advanced purchase for £25 return on set trains only.

That said I have never seen first class full on great northern, but niether have the had any desire to just have it behind on cab end.

That said I do agree with the point it is not clear. I have travelled on the units 3 times and yet to have one with a working PIS. I sat in the rear first class section on one journey to see what the seats were like but I suspect if an RPI hit me saying a read it on this forum that the rear set is declassified isn't an acceptable defence hence why I have only done it once and won't again until it is clearly marked.

 

[Class377/5]

It's a pity that the franchise/management contract specification and/or the commercial strategy doesn't allow for 1st class to be entirely removed from the route (a bit like GA are doing for all but Norwich Express, showing it can be done)

FCC asked the DfT to remove First Class and the DfT said no. They allowed a 50% reduction which is why the 377/5 went from first class on both ends to just one. Same is being applied with the 700s with first class declassified on the rear of the train (remember that both ends at some point in the trip are London) so its not as simple as declassifying one end at either end has issues.

 

[Failed Unit]

Need to remember they work on great northern which for some reason has a greater demand for first class. I guess Cambridge, Peterborough and London are further away from London.

I remember when thameslink started it was standard class only. A am sure someone said they only added first class to extract some of the revenue from the Brighton mainline. (BR didn't put it like that - a first class alternative to Victoria.).

Was still a challenge back then to make sure the units had 1st class on the Brighton route and were not trundling around the loop / branches (as back then it went to Guildford).

 

[Deepgreen]

I have never experienced or witnessed any form of on-train ticket checking on any Thameslink train since the service began. The 387/1s have utterly pathetic first class accommodation, and the demarcation information is ludicrously poor too. It is simply used by all and sundry. The platform screen information telling passengers where in the train the accommodation is situated has also disappeared in favour of the standard message that all LU lines are running well (why both cannot be shown, I don't know!). So, no enforcement whatsoever is performed, and it's very hard to find the accommodation anyway - great passenger focus there.

On the 700s, it is scandalous that the precise specification for Thameslink duties was seemingly changed again sometime between construction and entry to service. The result is yet another shambolic mess of confusing information for passengers (has nothing been learned from the 377/6 and 377/7 first class debacle?). GTR seem to be hell-bent on making first class as indistinct and confusing as possible - and, no, this does not mean it should be removed; it should, and easily could, be made very clear where and when it applies. I would suggest that putting the first class at the extreme ends of units is misguided anyway - sections located towards the centre (say, cars 4 and 8) would be more helpful.

I have yet to travel on a 700, but if the first class is permanently declassified at one end, and without the platform information to tell passengers which end of the train it's at (requiring a walk of potentially 11.5 cars to reach it!), this is a farce.

 

[rebmcr]

FCC asked the DfT to remove First Class and the DfT said no. They allowed a 50% reduction which is why the 377/5 went from first class on both ends to just one. Same is being applied with the 700s with first class declassified on the rear of the train (remember that both ends at some point in the trip are London) so its not as simple as declassifying one end at either end has issues.

That's pretty stupid to have it move within the train.

 

[Mike395]

That's pretty stupid to have it move within the train.

Not sure I agree - so long as it's well advertised on the platform (and it's variable as to whether this is done...) that FC is only at one end, it makes sense for it to be the same end relative to the direction of travel.

 

[Deepgreen]

Not sure I agree - so long as it's well advertised on the platform (and it's variable as to whether this is done...) that FC is only at one end, it makes sense for it to be the same end relative to the direction of travel.

Fraught with the possibility (and reality, it seems) of information systems failure/inconsistency. It's just incredible that GTR have hashed this up again. They simply cannot get anything right.

 

[Mike395]

To be fair - when it works its a system that works well (and the reliability of the onboard screens on the 700s in particular has improved of late, just need the platform screens to follow suit)

 

[Deepgreen]

To be fair - when it works its a system that works well (and the reliability of the onboard screens on the 700s in particular has improved of late, just need the platform screens to follow suit)

Possibly, but the very need to have the first class change ends every journey is bizarre. Had it been more centrally-located it would not have been an issue. I also can't see the platform information being any help as the new screens seem to be removing this!

All this is quite apart from the farce of the seemingly-liquid specification changes that go on with every new stock these days.

 

[Failed Unit]

I must admit I don't get it either. Off peak no issues seats are plentiful anyway. Peak hours price the ticket in such a way to encourage more people to buy it. They need to remember that accommodation isn't much better than standard so not double the price.

Perhaps if the standard season ticket price was £3000 some may pay £4000 to travel first (but not £6000)

Likewise once the sets are fully introduced with decent pricing I am sure people would buy APs from Peterborough- Gatwick. They may do now but travel on east coast.

 

[All Line Rover]

...a bit like GA are doing for all but Norwich Express...

Is there a thread discussing this?

 

[swt_passenger]

Is there a thread discussing this?

It's mentioned in the ongoing thread about GEML's new franchise, details of the fleet have been published in Modern Railways and the relevant point is made here:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2754465&postcount=1302

 

[All Line Rover]

How many first class seats does the 8 car have. I know it is 52 on the 12 car. If you look at a 12 car 365 it has 72 first class seats on a 12 car formation and 48 on an 8 so you can see why they went for the number.

If the first class compartments on the 8 car trains are the same size as those on the 12 car trains, that leaves around half the fleet having just over 6.5 standard class carriages on a route where the majority of the incumbent trains, which have a greater density of seats, operate in 12 car formation. Only the myopic DfT could consider this to be appropriate.

If the DfT believes that the current level of first class accommodation is excessive, why didn't they decide this at the time of procurement? The dividing doors could have been moved closer to the driving cabs so that the first class accommodation occupied only half of the leading and trailing carriages rather than two thirds of each, or the first class compartments could even have been confined to the very front third of the leading carriage and the very rear third of the trailing carriage. With the luggage racks removed, this would be no different from the 377/1s.

Thameslink typically has less accommodation than great northern. You would hope the offer advance first class tickets off-peak rather than declassify it. Let's say it is £20 for the off-peak return, sell and advanced purchase for £25 return on set trains only.

The trains I used were off-peak and very quiet in standard class (maybe 30 people in all, across all 12 carriages). The declassified rear first class compartment was empty. The actual first class compartment at the front only contained people in high vis jackets, presumably rail staff. A great use of taxpayers' money, no doubt.

In view of the loadings, I don't see how offering cheaper off-peak first class tickets would help. But nor do I see the need for one of the first class compartments to be declassified on a train that has plenty of available standard class seats. It was not a case of the rear first class compartment being automatically declassified by the on-board software because the train was identified as being overcrowded.

That said I do agree with the point it is not clear. I have travelled on the units 3 times and yet to have one with a working PIS. I sat in the rear first class section on one journey to see what the seats were like but I suspect if an RPI hit me saying a read it on this forum that the rear set is declassified isn't an acceptable defence hence why I have only done it once and won't again until it is clearly marked.

I was surprised that, although the first class seats look better padded, they are just as solid as those in standard class. I was also surprised that they are in 2+2 formation rather than the 2+1 formation on the incumbent 319s. Even the armrests aren't padded! If I was a season ticket holder on the Thameslink route, I would not bother paying extra for first class, particularly when one of the two compartments is available to all.

On my return journey earlier today, the declassification message did not appear until at least 5 minutes after the train had departed Gatwick, East Croydon, etc. And once the train approached Blackfriars, the message did not reappear until at least St Pancras, where I alighted. It is a farce.

 

[Verulamius]

The Thameslink consultation stated that the metro routes will be second class only with the mainline routes providing first.

The metro routes are

St Albans - Wimbledon loop
Luton - Orpington
Luton - Rainham
Welwyn Garden City - Sevenoaks

Thus the first class compartments will be declassified, both front and rear, on these trains.

The consultation is silent on whether first class will only be at the front on the mainline trains.

 

[Class377/5]

Need to remember they work on great northern which for some reason has a greater demand for first class. I guess Cambridge, Peterborough and London are further away from London.

I remember when thameslink started it was standard class only. A am sure someone said they only added first class to extract some of the revenue from the Brighton mainline. (BR didn't put it like that - a first class alternative to Victoria.).

Was still a challenge back then to make sure the units had 1st class on the Brighton route and were not trundling around the loop / branches (as back then it went to Guildford).

How do BR trains extract revenue from them?

However your history is wrong. Introduction of first class was from MML commuters who saw there main service no long offer first class.

That's pretty stupid to have it move within the train.

It didn't move within the train. One end became declassified. Worth pointing out Thameslink trains get turned regularly but there was never mass complains about the first class moving even tho on the 319s it could be in either end.

Possibly, but the very need to have the first class change ends every journey is bizarre. Had it been more centrally-located it would not have been an issue. I also can't see the platform information being any help as the new screens seem to be removing this!

All this is quite apart from the farce of the seemingly-liquid specification changes that go on with every new stock these days.

Center of the train is for level access for wheelchairs. Those who find steps etc difficult. I cannot believe commuters have an issue with first class being in a set location. You know what direction the train goes in so go to the front. For Thameslin commuters is making making things simpler.

 

[Bishopstone]

FCC asked the DfT to remove First Class and the DfT said no. They allowed a 50% reduction which is why the 377/5 went from first class on both ends to just one.

In essence, DfT won't take the revenue hit from losing First Class, but neither do they want to hear complaints from Standard customers (or their MPs) about 'empty' FC sections and Penalty Fares issued on crowded trains.

So the compromise is to keep First Class, scaled down, and tell RPIs to avoid patrolling trains in the peak and shoulder peak, or on any other occasion when there might be more Standard passengers than Standard seats.

It's not particularly satisfactory for anyone other than DfT.

 

[Hadders]

You would hope the offer advance first class tickets off-peak rather than declassify it. Let's say it is £20 for the off-peak return, sell and advanced purchase for £25 return on set trains only.

I hope they offer First Class Off Peak fares but I am not in favour of Advance fares on Thameslink/Great Northern.

The proposed frequency does not lend itself to Advance style ticketing and many people will inadvertently travel on the wrong train.

 

[The Box Photter]

I have never experienced or witnessed any form of on-train ticket checking on any Thameslink train since the service began. The 387/1s have utterly pathetic first class accommodation, and the demarcation information is ludicrously poor too. It is simply used by all and sundry. The platform screen information telling passengers where in the train the accommodation is situated has also disappeared in favour of the standard message that all LU lines are running well (why both cannot be shown, I don't know!). So, no enforcement whatsoever is performed, and it's very hard to find the accommodation anyway - great passenger focus there.

On the 700s, it is scandalous that the precise specification for Thameslink duties was seemingly changed again sometime between construction and entry to service. The result is yet another shambolic mess of confusing information for passengers (has nothing been learned from the 377/6 and 377/7 first class debacle?). GTR seem to be hell-bent on making first class as indistinct and confusing as possible - and, no, this does not mean it should be removed; it should, and easily could, be made very clear where and when it applies. I would suggest that putting the first class at the extreme ends of units is misguided anyway - sections located towards the centre (say, cars 4 and 8) would be more helpful.

I have yet to travel on a 700, but if the first class is permanently declassified at one end, and without the platform information to tell passengers which end of the train it's at (requiring a walk of potentially 11.5 cars to reach it!), this is a farce.

Actually, it makes perfect sense to ALWAYS have the declassified section at the rear in the direction of travel. It means that regular travellers know where to stand on the platform to avail themselves of GTR's generosity. Permanently declassifying one end would make it a 50/50 chance of guessing correctly.

Can the mods please lock and delete this thread so no-one else finds out about the "rear 1st class declassification" and thus casual travellers will leave us commuters alone. It was bad enough last week when the schools were on half-term with families and their unruly, loud and sticky children cluttering up peak-hour trains.

I wonder how many of those families were travelling illegally on off-peak day returns after taking little Jocasta and Tarquin to see the dinosaur skeletons at the Natural History Museum? We certainly had the benefit of one such brood hurrumphing that they couldn't all sit together on a peak northbound 12-car train. They managed to spread themselves out amongst the "regulars" and annoyed everyone with their constant whining, flailing about with assorted electronic devices and smearing the seats/tables/windows with semi-masticated biscuits - all whilst their doting parents sat as far away as possible reading their kindles and checking their emails on laptops.

 

[jon0844]

Thameslink has confirmed many times on Twitter that the rear first class is declassified and assured people, myself included, that RPIs all know.

While I'd like for hardly anyone else to know, it would make sense to use those big screens to tell people that first class at the rear of the train can be used by standard class ticket holders. Perhaps automatically if the carriages all show up as busy.

 

[Class377/5]

Thameslink has confirmed many times on Twitter that the rear first class is declassified and assured people, myself included, that RPIs all know.

While I'd like for hardly anyone else to know, it would make sense to use those big screens to tell people that first class at the rear of the train can be used by standard class ticket holders. Perhaps automatically if the carriages all show up as busy.

The drivers are the one's who puts the code in to declassify one end, it's not an automatic thing.

 

[jon0844]

But the software could be updated so all screens mention first class being available to all at the rear, not just those already in there.

I'm quite happy for that not to happen though!

 

[All Line Rover]

I would expect at least one of the three screens in a declassified first class compartment to permanently mention (throughout a particular journey) that the compartment is declassified. The screens can clearly be individually coded so this should not be a problem.

I would also expect at least one screen in the standard class seating area of the rear carriage to carry the same message, as in the absence of any audible announcement, there would, strictly speaking, not otherwise be any means for a rule-abiding passenger to be aware of the declassification.

 

[Failed Unit]

I hope they offer First Class Off Peak fares but I am not in favour of Advance fares on Thameslink/Great Northern.

The proposed frequency does not lend itself to Advance style ticketing and many people will inadvertently travel on the wrong train.

I can see your point in the core. But Cambridge- Brighton as an example will be half hourly. Less frequent then routes that already have APs such as London - Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds and York.

With the actual journey time longer as well.

 

[Bald Rick]

It's a dog's breakfast, albeit not much different to the dog's breakfast that exists today. There are plenty of Thameslink trains with existing stock today that:

1) Are advertised standard class only but have first class on board that is not shown as declassified in the train or in the station CIS
2) are advertised with first class, and contain it, but operate on sections of route where there are no first class fares available
3) appear to have declassified first class accommodation that un-declassifies part way through a journey.

Add in to this the game of Spot the difference for first class / standard class in the 387s / 377s (esp those without interior dividing doors) and it is a recipe for passenger confusion.

With the new trains it should be easier to provide the correct info. However seeing the behaviour of my fellow commuters, many now assume that all first class on the 700s is declassified, because they have seen signs that say it is at some point.

All that is needed is a clear statement of what is declassified and when.

Having said that,,my preference is for the 8 cars to be refitted with standard seats, and for Thameslink only first class fares to be offered from stations north of St Albans / Stevenage at a price that is c 25% more than standard.

 

[Deepgreen]

Thameslink has confirmed many times on Twitter that the rear first class is declassified and assured people, myself included, that RPIs all know.

While I'd like for hardly anyone else to know, it would make sense to use those big screens to tell people that first class at the rear of the train can be used by standard class ticket holders. Perhaps automatically if the carriages all show up as busy.

I and many other passengers don't use or rely on 'Twitter' or other social media to tell us where we may sit! That's what proper signing is for, in conjunction with a sensible policy on the provision/location of first class. There's also the issue of the specification for the trains either being wrong from the outset or being incompetently changed during introduction.

I find it hard to believe that TL actually has any RPIs - as I have said, in all the years of using the routes, I have never once seen any.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's a dog's breakfast, albeit not much different to the dog's breakfast that exists today. There are plenty of Thameslink trains with existing stock today that:

1) Are advertised standard class only but have first class on board that is not shown as declassified in the train or in the station CIS
2) are advertised with first class, and contain it, but operate on sections of route where there are no first class fares available
3) appear to have declassified first class accommodation that un-declassifies part way through a journey.

Add in to this the game of Spot the difference for first class / standard class in the 387s / 377s (esp those without interior dividing doors) and it is a recipe for passenger confusion.

With the new trains it should be easier to provide the correct info. However seeing the behaviour of my fellow commuters, many now assume that all first class on the 700s is declassified, because they have seen signs that say it is at some point.

All that is needed is a clear statement of what is declassified and when.

Having said that,,my preference is for the 8 cars to be refitted with standard seats, and for Thameslink only first class fares to be offered from stations north of St Albans / Stevenage at a price that is c 25% more than standard.

Quite - and the opportunity has yet again been missed to rectify the mess with an entirely new, single-design fleet.

While the chaotic provision and labelling of first class is not the most worrying feature of the railway today, the absolute mess into which it has been allowed to descend is indicative of a disjointed and discrete planning process that does characterise almost all of the rest of the railway.