In trouble

[icey]

I ran to the train station and went to the ticket machine and it was out of order
so I went on the train in a rush and no ticket inspector was on board. I then got out of station and a lead of inspectors were there which has never happened before. I then got interrogated basically and I lied and said that I left my ticket on the train purely because I thought the excuse "machine was broken" was not good enough.

I have to take two trains to get to work and the second set of stations I always buy my ticket if the first station is out of order or whatever. Basically the guy was reading me my rights and stuff and then took everything I said and he said down on paper.

Then he said that I'll be waiting to here from the prosecution in a letter. If I get a conviction then it'll wreck my chances of my future career and I'm really worried.

Please help

 

[telstarbox]

Which stations did you travel between?

 

[bb21]

You need to provide more details if you want to get any sort of meaningful help, such as where you travelled to/from, where you changed trains, what was asked and what your answers were ...

Have a look at other similar threads and you should be able to see what you need to tell us before we can help you.

 

[maniacmartin]

If you could answer these questions, we'll be in a better position to help.

Did the first station have any other ticket machines, or a staffed ticket office, and if so, was it open at the time?

At the interchange station, how much time did you have between your first train arrived and your second train departed. Did this station have an open ticket office or ticket machines?

Did the guard come past on either of the trains, and if so, did you ask to buy a ticket?

Which company operated the trains and stations which you used, and which company's inspectors questioned you?

Did you pass any ticket machines, ticket offices or excess fares window at your destination station before you got to the inspectors?

Finally, did you state the correct station that you travelled from to the inspectors, and your real name and address, the first time you were asked?

 

[island]

The sad thing is that the machine being broken may well have been a valid excuse. Leaving a ticket on the train isn't.

 

[Qwerty133]

Did you admit in the end that the machine was broken or did you stay with the story that you left the ticket on the train?
Do you have other tickets proving that you normally pay for travel?

 

[icey]

Which stations did you travel between?

Reigate(barriers) to Dorking Deepdeene(no barriers) and then I walk roughly 3-4minutes to Dorking Station(barriers) and then go to Leatherhead (barriers) which is where i work.

Before you ask, I got onto the platform at Reigate because I had my season ticket which goes the other direction towards Redhill and London Victoria and used it to get on.

 

[bb21]

Where is your ticket valid to/from?

What conversation took place?

You really need to answer the questions asked rather than drip-feed people information. It helps others to help you.

 

[icey]

If you could answer these questions, we'll be in a better position to help.

Did the first station have any other ticket machines, or a staffed ticket office, and if so, was it open at the time? Yes it did have another ticket machine on the other side of the platform but I would have missed the train otherwise. The ticket office most likely would have been open on a Monday (today) but as I USUALLY only work weekends and this is the first time I've done overtime on Monday, i completely forgot and assumed it was closed as it is always closed on weekends. You could call this 'absendmindness' i guess.

At the interchange station, how much time did you have between your first train arrived and your second train departed. Did this station have an open ticket office or ticket machines? Uhm, the earlier train was delayed which enabled me to basically catch an earlier train, but I arrived at Dorking Deepdene roughly 9:40am and I could have caught the 9:46am train which would have been plenty of time for me to get it as it is only a 4-5minute walk to the station. Yes the ticket machines at Dorking were okay and I bought a ticket after issued the 'Caution' by the ticket inspector.

Did the guard come past on either of the trains, and if so, did you ask to buy a ticket? No they didn't. I was looking up and down the train but there was no ticket inspector.

Which company operated the trains and stations which you used, and which company's inspectors questioned you? I THINK Southwest trains. Not a clue which company inspector questioned you. I think he was nationalrail or something. Sorry, I'd be guessing if i told you really.

Did you pass any ticket machines, ticket offices or excess fares window at your destination station before you got to the inspectors? No, I had one single ticket machine on Platform 2 on Reigate and it was broke.

Finally, did you state the correct station that you travelled from to the inspectors, and your real name and address, the first time you were asked?
Yes, I was aware (because I'm an A-Level law student) that it's a criminal offence to state a false name or address and stuff and therefore I said the whole truth except where my tickets were.

Hope this helps
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Did you admit in the end that the machine was broken or did you stay with the story that you left the ticket on the train?
Do you have other tickets proving that you normally pay for travel?

No i stuck with the story. I thought it would most likely get me off because "ticket machine was broken" I believed was such a cliche that the 'Revenues Inspector (i remembered that..)' would just say 'Oh right, another one of them...insta-fine'.

I have (just found) a ticket in my wallet from 13th February and expiring on that date. I usually chuck tickets away when I'm done using them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Where is your ticket valid to/from?

What conversation took place?

You really need to answer the questions asked rather than drip-feed people information. It helps others to help you.

My ticket is valid from Reigate to Leatherhead usually and it usually only lasts a day.

Conversation was roughly this:

*Icey walks down stairs to see 4 inspector guards there which i've never seen before*

Icey: OH damn I left the ticket on the train.

Inspector: Can you step to one side please?

Icey: I'm going to get a fine now, aren't I?

Inspector: Unfortunately on this occasion.

*10seconds later*

Inspector: You have the right to remain silent blah blah blah, do you understand?

Icey: Yes

Inspector: It is a criminal offence to give a false name, address etc

Icey: Yes, I know, I'm a law student. *shows driving license*

Inspector: Is this your real ID?

(admittingly, at this point i got a bit ****ed off because he was accusing me of ANOTHER offence.)

Icey: Yes of course it is.

Inspector: Is this your current address?

Icey: Yeah.

(Of record a bit, Inspector said 'What job do you do?', I said 'Im a student, a fulltime student'. He didn't write that down the b****rd because he knew it would be a little bit in my favour a bit.)

Inspector: What station did you REALLY come from?

(This insulted me a bit because he was calling me a liar in such a patronizing way) Icey: I said Reigate!

Inspector: How much did you pay for your ticket?

Icey: Uhh 5.50 (that's for a single. It's usually 6.50, so i mucked up)

Inspector: Is that a single or return?

Icey: (stupidly) return

Inspector: Can i see the second half of your return ticket please?

Icey: I also haven't got that.

Inspector: Do you realise that Dorking Deepdene does not have any barriers?

Icey: Yeah

Inspector: I find in my conclusion that you had the intention to avoid buying a ticket, is this correct?

Icey: No!

Inspector: Okay, you'll be hearing in a letter from the prosecution.

Icey: Wait what? So what's going to happen?

Inspector: I don't know. I don't deal with those things.

I knew he was lying. >

=========================================================

That's all i can remember off the top of my head. He was so patronizing and so inconsiderate it was unreal.

Anyone know why he didn't give me a fine?

 

[simon.exd]

If the ticket machine was broken someone at some point would have reported it, which would have lead to someone having to repair it, which would all have left a trail of proof that your story was credible.
Basically you have tried to get a freebie and been caught. If you are too stupid to buy a ticket for a journey maybe you are setting your sights a bit high with your prospective career choice...
You deserve to be fined and if it compromises your chances of getting a job, that will surely be your lesson taught

 

[bb21]

My ticket is valid from Reigate to Leatherhead usually and it usually only lasts a day.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant to ask where your season ticket is valid to/from. I ask because we can then figure out whether it had any validity for the journey you made that day.

 

[icey]

If the ticket machine was broken someone at some point would have reported it, which would have lead to someone having to repair it, which would all have left a trail of proof that your story was credible.
Basically you have tried to get a freebie and been caught. If you are too stupid to buy a ticket for a journey maybe you are setting your sights a bit high with your prospective career choice...
You deserve to be fined and if it compromises your chances of getting a job, that will surely be your lesson taught

I have ALWAYS bought a ticket from the station. I had no intention of avoiding buying the ticket at all. I always buy the ticket either at Reigate or at Dorking if Reigate is unavailable.

Yes okay I deserve to be fined for at least lying to the guy but ruining my career would be devastating for me. That is (I believe) one thing which a petty crime should not ruin because that would be like punching someone and getting life in prison.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant to ask where your season ticket is valid to/from. I ask because we can then figure out whether it had any validity for the journey you made that day.

Oh, My season ticket is valid until 18 FBY 13 between Reigate and Coulsdon South (Seven Day Season). I bought it as a renewal on 11 FBY 13

 

[GadgetMan]

Hope this helps
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


No i stuck with the story. I thought it would most likely get me off because "ticket machine was broken" I believed was such a cliche that the 'Revenues Inspector (i remembered that..)' would just say 'Oh right, another one of them...insta-fine'.

I have (just found) a ticket in my wallet from 13th February and expiring on that date. I usually chuck tickets away when I'm done using them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


My ticket is valid from Reigate to Leatherhead usually and it usually only lasts a day.

Conversation was roughly this:

*Icey walks down stairs to see 4 inspector guards there which i've never seen before*

Icey: OH damn I left the ticket on the train.

Inspector: Can you step to one side please?

Icey: I'm going to get a fine now, aren't I?

Inspector: Unfortunately on this occasion.

*10seconds later*

Inspector: You have the right to remain silent blah blah blah, do you understand?

Icey: Yes

Inspector: It is a criminal offence to give a false name, address etc

Icey: Yes, I know, I'm a law student. *shows driving license*

Inspector: Is this your real ID?

(admittingly, at this point i got a bit ****ed off because he was accusing me of ANOTHER offence.)

Icey: Yes of course it is.

Inspector: Is this your current address?

Icey: Yeah.

(Of record a bit, Inspector said 'What job do you do?', I said 'Im a student, a fulltime student'. He didn't write that down the b****rd because he knew it would be a little bit in my favour a bit.)

Inspector: What station did you REALLY come from?

(This insulted me a bit because he was calling me a liar in such a patronizing way) Icey: I said Reigate!

Inspector: How much did you pay for your ticket?

Icey: Uhh 5.50 (that's for a single. It's usually 6.50, so i mucked up)

Inspector: Is that a single or return?

Icey: (stupidly) return

Inspector: Can i see the second half of your return ticket please?

Icey: I also haven't got that.

Inspector: Do you realise that Dorking Deepdene does not have any barriers?

Icey: Yeah

Inspector: I find in my conclusion that you had the intention to avoid buying a ticket, is this correct?

Icey: No!

Inspector: Okay, you'll be hearing in a letter from the prosecution.

Icey: Wait what? So what's going to happen?

Inspector: I don't know. I don't deal with those things.

I knew he was lying. >

=========================================================

That's all i can remember off the top of my head. He was so patronizing and so inconsiderate it was unreal.

Anyone know why he didn't give me a fine?

Fare Dodgers lie to us Revenue Staff all the time. It gets a little tedious and annoying which is why passengers who are being questioned are constantly offered opportunities to correct their version of events and stop digging a deeper hole for themselves. A side affect of this repetitiveness is that people telling the truth often find it a little frustrating.

Your version is a classic example of a liar being caught out. What smart arse buys a Return Ticket and leaves both portions on the train on the outward journey? And yet the member of staff is B******rd because he did his job and you got caught out?

How does being a Student work in your favour? And for all you know that bit of info may be noted down on the actual report when it is submitted.

He told you what will happen; you'll be contacted by the prosecution department.

After that it's between you and the prosecution department what happens. (The clue is in the name PROSECUTION department). Unfortunately he can't predict the future. You could be sent a Free annual all lines pass as a prize for getting caught, or you could be found guilty in court and fined £1000. Not a easy question to answer.

 

[icey]

Fare Dodgers lie to us Revenue Staff all the time. It gets a little tedious and annoying which is why passengers who are being questioned are constantly offered opportunities to correct their version of events and stop digging a deeper hole for themselves. A side affect of this repetitiveness is that people telling the truth often find it a little frustrating.

Your version is a classic example of a liar being caught out. What smart arse buys a Return Ticket and leaves both portions on the train on the outward journey? And yet the member of staff is B******rd because he did his job and you got caught out?

How does being a Student work in your favour? And for all you know that bit of info may be noted down on the actual report when it is submitted.

He told you what will happen; you'll be contacted by the prosecution department.

After that it's between you and the prosecution department what happens. (The clue is in the name PROSECUTION department). Unfortunately he can't predict the future. You could be sent a Free annual all lines pass as a prize for getting caught, or you could be found guilty in court and fined £1000. Not a easy question to answer.

When you put it like that, okay I deserve everything I get to be honest. =/ But still, I think it was really harsh and it's more the scare and shock that's happened which is why i'm upset (that, combined with the fear of losing my career...)

You know, I've worked hard all my life, i'm in full time education doing 4 A-Levels, i've got a part time job in order to help my mum out and I just really felt I didn't deserve this: Getting scared to death by sheer words combined with law and prosecution and stuff.

 

[yorkie]

Welcome to the forum.

Anyone know why he didn't give me a fine?

I can answer this question, and I think that there may be some confusion, you may be thinking of a Penalty Fare?

For more information, see the Penalty Fares part of our RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide (you normally need 5+ posts to read this, but I've given you access now), but basically a Penalty Fare is charged for an honest mistake (in certain circumstances - however, they do not apply to journeys made from Reigate on First Great Western).

What has happened is he has reported you for possible prosecution, see Prosections. Although he took a Statement from you on the day, if the Company decides to take it further, it is likely that they will write to you again, asking you for your version of events in writing.

 

[icey]

Welcome to the forum.


I can answer this question, and I think that there may be some confusion, you may be thinking of a Penalty Fare?

For more information, see the Penalty Fares part of our RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide (you normally need 5+ posts to read this, but I've given you access now), but basically a Penalty Fare is charged for an honest mistake (in certain circumstances).

What has happened is he has reported you for possible prosecution, see Prosections. Although he took a Statement from you on the day, if the Company decides to take it further, it is likely that they will write to you again, asking you for your version of events in writing.

Thanks. Yeah, I think I have gotten confused a little bit. If they ask for my version of events in writing then I will admit I lied about the reason for not having the ticket and tell them the whole truth backed up with evidence. The only evidence I won't have is that the ticket machine is broke, but I'm sure they would have access to the security videos outside the station which would clearly show it being broken.

Thanks again

 

[GadgetMan]

Thanks. Yeah, I think I have gotten confused a little bit. If they ask for my version of events in writing then I will admit I lied about the reason for not having the ticket and tell them the whole truth backed up with evidence. The only evidence I won't have is that the ticket machine is broke, but I'm sure they would have access to the security videos outside the station which would clearly show it being broken.

Thanks again

Although your options are very limited, you have to be careful how you reply as you may well talk yourself into even more trouble.

For example you can reply saying you've seen sense and are very sorry for lying and offering the real version of events with an offer to pay their expenses and the fare.

The TOC could accept you've learnt your lesson and let you settle out of court.

Alternatively they could take it court because you'll have given them all the ammunition they need in the initial interrogation and then further shoot yourself in the foot with a full confession in writing.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks. Yeah, I think I have gotten confused a little bit.

No problem, it's quite a common cause of confusion! It was probably your friend who got you confused. Unfortunately that confusion does mean that it is a bit of a myth that the worst that can happen is you can be asked to pay £20.

If they ask for my version of events in writing then I will admit I lied about the reason for not having the ticket and tell them the whole truth backed up with evidence. The only evidence I won't have is that the ticket machine is broke, but I'm sure they would have access to the security videos outside the station which would clearly show it being broken.

The problem is that the rule is that you must buy before boarding if facilities existed, this is mandatory in a Penalty Fare area, so it's not just a ticket machine being broken but you'd need the ticket office to be shut too, before you'd be entitled to buy on board.

If open, a ticket office would normally be able to sell the full range of fares.

If the ticket office is closed, you should buy from the machine if the ticket you require is available from the machine. If there is no facility at all to buy your ticket at your origin, then you may buy on board (or potentially at the interchange station, if possible).

 

[icey]

Although your options are very limited, you have to be careful how you reply as you may well talk yourself into even more trouble.

For example you can reply saying you've seen sense and are very sorry for lying and offering the real version of events with an offer to pay their expenses and the fare.

The TOC could accept you've learnt your lesson and let you settle out of court.

Alternatively they could take it court because you'll have given them all the ammunition they need in the initial interrogation and then further shoot yourself in the foot with a full confession in writing.

Ah thanks for the warning. I mean, is it always a letter asking for my version of events? or could it be something else?

The revenue inspector was so vague

 

[bb21]

You should receive a letter asking for your version of events. They will then decide how to proceed depending on how strong they think the case for prosecution is, and which legislation to use, so you are advised to be careful with how you word your reply.

FYI the £20 that your friends got charged is a Penalty Fare, and it is a charge for people who make a mistake. See Question 15 on this document for more information. Being charged a Penalty Fare is not the same as being accused of fare evasion. Unfortunately the RPI do not have to offer a Penalty Fare to settle the matter, if they feel that there is a case to report you for prosecution.

I can see why he did not believe you, as the price is wrong and (you have already realised) it is quite beyond belief that someone leaves both portions of the ticket on the train.

 

[icey]

You should receive a letter asking for your version of events. They will then decide how to proceed depending on how strong they think the case for prosecution is, and which legislation to use, so you are advised to be careful with how you word your reply.

FYI the £20 that your friends got charged is a Penalty Fare, and it is a charge for people who make a mistake. See Question 15 on this document for more information. Being charged a Penalty Fare is not the same as being accused of fare evasion. Unfortunately the RPI do not have to offer a Penalty Fare to settle the matter, if they feel that there is a case to report you for prosecution.

I can see why he did not believe you, as the price is wrong and (you have already realised) it is quite beyond belief that someone leaves both portions of the ticket on the train.

Yeah, classic mistake of not telling the truth. Tbh, I do deserve it after all. Yeah, well like the guy above said, two outcomes will happen. Either they'll let me off with a (quite large) fine when I say the truth, or i'll be shooting myself in the foot.

I just don't know what to do. Most likely I'll say the truth because lying got me into this position in the first place which is purely self induced. >_>

 

[Clip]

Yeah, classic mistake of not telling the truth. Tbh, I do deserve it after all. Yeah, well like the guy above said, two outcomes will happen. Either they'll let me off with a (quite large) fine when I say the truth, or i'll be shooting myself in the foot.

I just don't know what to do. Most likely I'll say the truth because lying got me into this position in the first place which is purely self induced. >_>

For an A level law student how could you ever think that lying would be a good thing to do in the first place?

If I were you, wait for the letter to arrive as you will then know what they are going to want to prosecute you under. Then maybe pop back for some more advice.

 

[island]

To be clear, you do not want to end up with a fine here, as that would mean you would have been convicted in court. You are looking for an out of court settlement. With legal issues like this it is important to be precise in our language.

I would very strongly encourage 100% honesty as the best policy from here on in, and in the future, buy before boarding, and allow extra time to do this. Even saying the machine was broken would probably not have helped on this occasion as there was a second machine and a booking office.

 

[icey]

To be clear, you do not want to end up with a fine here, as that would mean you would have been convicted in court. You are looking for an out of court settlement. With legal issues like this it is important to be precise in our language.

I would very strongly encourage 100% honesty as the best policy from here on in, and in the future, buy before boarding, and allow extra time to do this. Even saying the machine was broken would probably not have helped on this occasion as there was a second machine and a booking office.

Agreed. I'll be writing on here again when I get the letter through. Thanks to all who have helped in giving me advice and calming me down quite a bit...and to others for making me see another perspective (or sense).

It'll probably be a week I'd imagine for everything to process and the letter to get into my front door?

 

[bb21]

I would very strongly encourage 100% honesty as the best policy from here on in, and in the future, buy before boarding, and allow extra time to do this. Even saying the machine was broken would probably not have helped on this occasion as there was a second machine and a booking office.

It might have, as now intent could probably be proven more easily due to lying.

I agree though that there is nothing else that can do done until the letter arrives. The damage has been done and there is no point crying over spilt milk.

@OP. Try writing down exactly what happened on a piece of paper while it is still fresh in your mind. The last thing you want is for your story not to tally with the notes submitted by the RPI.

It'll probably be a week I'd imagine for everything to process and the letter to get into my front door?

Try "up to six weeks".

 

[soil]

Oh, My season ticket is valid until 18 FBY 13 between Reigate and Coulsdon South (Seven Day Season). I bought it as a renewal on 11 FBY 13

Unfortunately this ticket is only valid between the four stations en route. A ticket such as Box Hill & Westhumble - Redhill would have been a similar price and valid for the complete journey Leatherhead - Dorking - Redhill - Coulsdon South.

 

[sarahj]

I dont quite understand why you have a 7 day season from Reigate to Coulsdon, yet claim that leatherhaed is your place of work.
Do you have a oyster type ticket thats valid from coulsdon as well, or do you live there. There is something missing in this story.

 

[DelayRepay]

Sarahj, he said he normally travels at the weekend, but was doing overtime on the day he was caught. Most likely is that the season covers his journey to college, not work.

 

[icey]

Sarahj, he said he normally travels at the weekend, but was doing overtime on the day he was caught. Most likely is that the season covers his journey to college, not work.

Correct
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Unfortunately this ticket is only valid between the four stations en route. A ticket such as Box Hill & Westhumble - Redhill would have been a similar price and valid for the complete journey Leatherhead - Dorking - Redhill - Coulsdon South.

Seriously?? How can a BHW to Redhill cover me to Coulsdon South? It's two stations beyond that? :/

 

[DaveNewcastle]

You will now have plenty time to consider your response to the Investigating team while you wait for their letter to arrive. As you've realised, how you put your position forward in your reply will be used to decide whether or not to consider a Prosecution.

Being a Law student, I'll guess that you have access to some resources (or would know how to access them) and so I'll suggest that you take that opportunity over the few weeks of waiting to be sure that you understand the issues correctly.

First, the offence of travelling with the intent to avoid payment is a Criminal Offence under the Regulation of Railway Act and is not a Civil dispute with the Railway Company.

Second (and in response to your claim that you hadn't intended to avoid paying), the 'intention' in this and other Acts is nothing to do with your thoughts or dispositions but is read into your actions and what you say (to the Inspector on the day of travel, and in your written response) The Case Law provides the examples against which your evidence will be tested.
You are not going to be accused of lying about the station, but if you are accused of 'intent' to avoid paying, then the lie will be evidence of that 'intent'.
Similarly, any inconsistency between the report you gave the Inspector on the day of travel and the report in your written reply will be considered carefully; a passenger who falsely names the station where their journey began and which carries a cheaper fare, and then wishes to apologise and change their evidence again when it appears to lead to a conviction are providing good reason to suggest that they are not reliable and have 'intent' to alter the cicumstances. If any inconsistency appears to demonstrate the 'intent' to avoid payment then that's exactly how it is likely to be used.

Thirdly, many passengers who make a silly one-off mistake with their ticket or a young person who has never beed detected previously without a valid ticket, find that the Company will accept an apology and an offer of a settlement by way of compensation; similarly, the Courts have given passengers a Discharge in such exceptional circumstances. Only you will know whether these exceptional circumstances apply to you or whether there might be any reason for the Company to feel confident that you have provided adequate Evidence of 'intent to avoid payment'.

You have plenty time to read more on the subject and to consider your situation.