In my opinion e-tickets are not a national standard

[jayah]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #90 originally in this thread.

We already have them and they are accepted nationally.

Except for all the places they are not accepted e.g. London Undergound, Elizabeth Line, Luton Airport etc....

 

[HamworthyGoods]

We already have them and they are accepted nationally.

Except for any journey which crosses London…

 

[Haywain]

Except for all the places they are not accepted e.g. London Undergound, Elizabeth Line, Luton Airport etc....

Where they are issued, they are accepted nationally. They are not issued for areas where they are no accepted (such as the two examples of London underground you mention).

 

[Haywain]

Except for any journey which crosses London…

For which they are not issued!

 

[jayah]

Where they are issued, they are accepted nationally. They are not issued for areas where they are no accepted (such as the two examples of London underground you mention).

QR code tickets are only issued on routes where it is agreed.

It is not agreed on very many routes, hence they are not accepted, carried or issued "nationally". They are no more a national standard than the North Nottinghamshire Weekend Ranger.

And to be fair when you see what happens when the current agreed 'standard' App+QR code meets the current 'standard' ticket gateline/onboard reading device you can understand why.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Where they are issued, they are accepted nationally. They are not issued for areas where they are no accepted (such as the two examples of London underground you mention).

Bit of an "Alice in Wonderland" explanation, that!

 

[jayah]

Bit of an "Alice in Wonderland" explanation, that!

They are accepted everywhere*

*exclusions many apply.

 

[Haywain]

It is not agreed on very many routes, hence they are not accepted, carried or issued "nationally".

You really are stretching it to suggest that they are not widespread.

 

[jayah]

You really are stretching it to suggest that they are not widespread.

Your original point was they are accepted nationally. They aren't.

 

[Haywain]

Your original point was they are accepted nationally. They aren't.

So London underground, which isn't part of the national rail network, doesn't mean they are not used for travel into London where they are accepted. Which major parts of the country do you think are excluded?

 

[Adam Williams]

QR code tickets are only issued on routes where it is agreed.

Actually, no online or app-based retailers issue "QR code tickets" anywhere on the network.

It is not agreed on very many routes, hence they are not accepted, carried or issued "nationally". They are no more a national standard than the North Nottinghamshire Weekend Ranger.

90% of passenger journeys (according to Trainline's definition, anyway*) is not "not very many routes". As Haywain says, very much a stretch - and the comparison with the North Nottinghamshire Weekend Ranger is laughable.



* I think there may perhaps be some conflation of standards going on with this graph, but the point remains

And to be fair when you see what happens when the current agreed 'standard' App+QR code meets the current 'standard' ticket gateline/onboard reading device you can understand why.

I can't.

I've seen and used ttkMobile - what am I supposed to have come to understand?

 

[jayah]

Actually, no online or app-based retailers issue "QR code tickets" anywhere on the network.


90% of passenger journeys (according to Trainline's definition, anyway*) is not "not very many routes". As Haywain says, very much a stretch - and the comparison with the North Nottinghamshire Weekend Ranger is laughable.

View attachment 128352

* I think there may perhaps be some conflation of standards going on with this graph, but the point remains


I can't.

I've seen and used ttkMobile - what am I supposed to have come to understand?

It isn't a nationally accepted scheme for the reasons already explained. Not sure what a graph of 3 TOCs is meant to be proving, when they are allowed nationally it will be a national scheme.

UK is miles behind other countries integrating them across other modes like bus too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2023 ==

So London underground, which isn't part of the national rail network, doesn't mean they are not used for travel into London where they are accepted. Which major parts of the country do you think are excluded?

Travel into London isn't national.

Crossrail is part of the national network.

London Overground is part of the national network.

All of the bus links e.g. Luton Airport that are timetabled on national rail and have through fares are part of the national network.

London Underground is part of the national public transport network as are all of the scheduled bus and tram services in the country, but which DO NOT accept these e tickets.

 

[Haywain]

It isn't a nationally accepted scheme for the reasons already explained. Not sure what a graph of 3 TOCs is meant to be proving, when they are allowed nationally it will be a national scheme.

UK is miles behind other countries integrating them across other modes like bus too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2023 ==


Travel into London isn't national.

Crossrail is part of the national network.

London Overground is part of the national network.

All of the bus links e.g. Luton Airport that are timetabled on national rail and have through fares are part of the national network.

London Underground is part of the national public transport network as are all of the scheduled bus and tram services in the country, but which DO NOT accept these e tickets.

We have a national speed limit that isn't the limit on all roads. You're just being extremely pedantic about how you choose to define national.

 

[jayah]

I've seen and used ttkMobile - what am I supposed to have come to understand?

Just go to a set of gates that is 25% e-tickets and watch.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2023 ==

We have a national speed limit that isn't the limit on all roads. You're just being extremely pedantic about how you choose to define national.

That is a desparate comparison!

 

[alistairlees]

It isn't a nationally accepted scheme for the reasons already explained. Notnsure what a graph of 3 TOCs is meant to be proving, when they are allowed nationally it will be a national scheme.

UK is miles behind other countries integrating them across other modes like bus too.

eTickets work from Penzance to Aberdeen. Later this year they will be available on routes on ScotRail, Southeastern, c2c and TfW Rail, with Merseyrail hopefully to follow next year. That will just leave cross-London journeys remaining. Where they are available, >95% of customers select them over other options. It's been a relatively low-cost thing to implement (compared to ITSO smart cards, for example), with high levels of customer satisfaction.

 

[Haywain]

That is a desparate comparison!

Why? It demonstrates quite clearly that national doesn't have to mean absolutely universal.

 

[jayah]

Why? It demonstrates quite clearly that national doesn't have to mean absolutely universal.

11 TOCs offer them universally if you include Heathrow Express. So about half don't.

The TOCs with the most passengers are notable exceptions.

Nothing on Scotrail either.

Lots of TOCs where flows are enabled but not all tickets. Creative accounting measuring their availability by route.

Certainly not national, not even on heavy rail and that is a pretty low bar to aim for.

National lottery without the national.

Trainline

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2023 ==

eTickets work from Penzance to Aberdeen. Later this year they will be available on routes on ScotRail, Southeastern, c2c and TfW Rail, with Merseyrail hopefully to follow next year. That will just leave cross-London journeys remaining. Where they are available, >95% of customers select them over other options. It's been a relatively low-cost thing to implement (compared to ITSO smart cards, for example), with high levels of customer satisfaction.

Next year is 2024.

Where they are available 95% choose them, but if you happen to be using or changing at the busiest stations in the country they aren't.

If this thread is open on Christmas Day 2024 and all TOCs are taking them on all tickets and all routes, you can announce they are national.

But most of London will still be an exclusion zone, despite spending £bn on three heavy rail routes (Overground, Thameslink, Crossrail) traversing it.

Trainline

 

[alistairlees]

Next year is 2024.

This is the only thing that you have got right so far.

 

[Haywain]

The TOCs with the most passengers are notable exceptions.

Oh really. Like which TOCs?

Nothing on Scotrail either.

Scotrail accept eTickets and sell mTickets.

 

[jayah]

Oh really. Like which TOCs?

Scotrail accept eTickets and sell mTickets.

Perhaps you should read the linked page.

 

[Haywain]

Perhaps you should read the linked page.

Even Trainline don't get everything right.

 

[jayah]

Even Trainline don't get everything right.

Perhaps Trainline were dead right, but this national accepted standard is anything but because there is a something called a mobile ticket and a something else called e ticket which sound like they might be the same thing but aren't.

The last time I bought a mobile ticket I think it was some code on a text message. Today it means something else, but its very existence craters the nonsense of anything being standard or national, even on the parts of national rail that aren't a total exclusion for both mobile and e tickets.

 

[alistairlees]

Perhaps Trainline were dead right, but this national accepted standard is anything but because there is a something called a mobile ticket and a something else called e ticket which sound like they might be the same thing but aren't.

The last time I bought a mobile ticket I think it was some code on a text message. Today it means something else, but its very existence craters the nonsense of anything being standard or national, even on the parts of national rail that aren't a total exclusion for both mobile and e tickets.

There's a national standard for barcode tickets bought online called "eTicket". As I said, they're available in most places, and on most flows, including all the most popular ones, right now. And they are being rolled out in the next couple of months on the ScotRail domestic flows, as well as (during the rest of 2023) on Southeastern, c2c and so on. An eTicket issued by any retailer (TOC, independent or travel agent) will work on any of the TOCs / routes / stations that it's supposed to, being scanned at gates and on board, and with cancelled / refunded tickets being hotlisted so they can't be wrongly used. From Aberdeen to Penzance, from Great Yarmouth to Liverpool, from Southampton to Swansea, from London to Whitby. Now, that sounds like a national system to me.

 

[Adam Williams]

Just go to a set of gates that is 25% e-tickets and watch.

Most of the gates I go to are closer to 95% pax using E-Tickets, to be honest. I am not a scouser, or a Scotsman.

What am I supposed to be seeing when I watch people interact with the gates?

 

[jayah]

Most of the gates I go to are closer to 95% pax using E-Tickets, to be honest. I am not a scouser, or a Scotsman.

What am I supposed to be seeing when I watch people interact with the gates?

Let it be an education.

Using ticket gates and observing them are not the same thing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Feb 2023 ==

There's a national standard for barcode tickets bought online called "eTicket". As I said, they're available in most places, and on most flows, including all the most popular ones, right now. And they are being rolled out in the next couple of months on the ScotRail domestic flows, as well as (during the rest of 2023) on Southeastern, c2c and so on. An eTicket issued by any retailer (TOC, independent or travel agent) will work on any of the TOCs / routes / stations that it's supposed to, being scanned at gates and on board, and with cancelled / refunded tickets being hotlisted so they can't be wrongly used. From Aberdeen to Penzance, from Great Yarmouth to Liverpool, from Southampton to Swansea, from London to Whitby. Now, that sounds like a national system to me.

There isn't a standard because there are two competing spheres of digital tickets e-tickets and m-tickets.

Judging by the more favourable interpretation of their availability you may be talking about the less flexible mobile device only m-tickets, e-tickets available offline and for printing at home are less widely available? The very existence of this question proves the point.

Neither are valid on 'all the most popular ones' (flows) for the reason of London.

Luton Airport Parkway was used by 4m passengers a year pre pandemic. Unless you are actually going to the Parkway itself, you can't get an e-ticket as a through ticket to the airport.

A system that works at different places on a national network, where it is supposed to work, isn't a national system.

 

[yorkie]

Let it be an education.

Using ticket gates and observing them are not the same thing.

Seems to be little difference compared to paper tickets based on my observations

There isn't a standard because there are two competing spheres of digital tickets e-tickets and m-tickets.

m-tickets are old tech, not competing

Judging by the more favourable interpretation of their availability you may be talking about the less flexible mobile device only m-tickets, e-tickets available offline and for printing at home are less widely available? The very existence of this question proves the point.

m-tickets are being abolished; most retailers don't issue them and they are being phased out. e-tickets are widely available and that is increasing all the time (not as quickly as I'd like!)

Neither are valid on 'all the most popular ones' (flows) for the reason of London.

You mean not issued for, rather than valid. Blame TfL; see other threads.

Luton Airport Parkway was used by 4m passengers a year pre pandemic. Unless you are actually going to the Parkway itself, you can't get an e-ticket as a through ticket to the airport.

That should change then

A system that works at different places on a national network, where it is supposed to work, isn't a national system.

Not sure what you mean by this. The companies that are dragging their feet on e-ticketing just need to be told to hurry along and move with the times.

 

[Haywain]

Luton Airport Parkway was used by 4m passengers a year pre pandemic. Unless you are actually going to the Parkway itself, you can't get an e-ticket as a through ticket to the airport.

It may surprise you to know that a significant percentage of people using Luton Airport Parkway are not going to the airport.

 

[jayah]

Seems to be little difference compared to paper tickets based on my observations

m-tickets are old tech, not competing

m-tickets are being abolished; most retailers don't issue them and they are being phased out. e-tickets are widely available and that is increasing all the time (not as quickly as I'd like!)

You mean not issued for, rather than valid. Blame TfL; see other threads.

That should change then

Not sure what you mean by this. The companies that are dragging their feet on e-ticketing just need to be told to hurry along and move with the times.

If you look at the Trainline link, m-tickets are currently much more widely available than e-tickets, except as you note, some websites don't actually offer them (which is why I had not heard of them) leaving offline methods only where m-ticket is the only digital option.

That isn't a national standard, it is mid-way through a transition.

It shall also be noted, Scotrail only launched m-tickets on internal routes in 2021. The two are very much competing in the same space at the same time and the retailers not offering both is further evidence of digital ticketing not working as a national standard.

Scotrail

I am not interested in a blame game about whose fault it all is, either digital tickets are available to buy and use nationally, through all websites, or they aren't.

A debate about something as nebulous as a ticket being valid but impossible to buy or possible to buy yet invalid, is not something an ordinary passenger is interested in.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Feb 2023 ==

It may surprise you to know that a significant percentage of people using Luton Airport Parkway are not going to the airport.

In this context, it needs to be significant enough to relegate Luton Airport to a minor flow.

Assuming it doesn't, that still leaves rail journeys in the millions each year, to and from the airport and unless you pay for the airport bus separately, or don't use it, it can't be done on a digital ticket.

That is actual the point, not whether 5% or 15% of the rail station passengers don't use the airport.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With regard to Luton Airport the photos I saw of the new gateline on the people mover showed scanners being present, so I suspect this will be solved with the opening of the people mover.

 

[yorkie]

If you look at the Trainline link, m-tickets are currently much more widely available than e-tickets, except as you note, some websites don't actually offer them (which is why I had not heard of them) leaving offline methods only where m-ticket is the only digital option.

I am unsure what you are referring to (if you mean your post where you added a couple of random links, you are required to add a quote please) but I do not think it is correct that m-tickets are much more widely available than e-tickets.

That isn't a national standard, it is mid-way through a transition.

It shall also be noted, Scotrail only launched m-tickets on internal routes in 2021. The two are very much competing in the same space at the same time and the retailers not offering both is further evidence of digital ticketing not working as a national standard.

Scotrail

I have been saying for years that Scotrail should have implemented e-tickets and not engage with m-tickets; I am pleased to see you appear to be agreeing with me (albeit in an unusual manner) that TOCs should not be dragging their feet and should make e-tickets available for all ticket types and flows, and that this should be done urgently.