in cab facing cameras

[90019]

I strongly oppose in cab CCTV, and will fight it tooth and nail if I have to. Just another tool to throw everyone under the bus for the slightest thing.

Though the bus you get thrown under would probably have a camera watching the driver.

 

[SPADTrap]

yep. I've heard a few good ones in my time. The one with the row about authority to pass a signal is a classic.

"WHEN I give you permission...."

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This survey seems to have been triggered by the incident discussed in this thread (report here. The driver's manager had concerns about him, but didn't feel he had the evidence to act on them. There is no proof of what the driver did during the incident in the 4-6 seconds between when the doors closed and when the train started off. While inward facing CCTV isn't the only way to address these things, it is one way.

The report I read said there was no history of phone use and that he wasn't suspected of it, so can you clarify what concerns existed without evidence?

 

[driver_m]

For the one major incident they might prove, there'd be many more times where either it would cause more incidents by drivers being concious of being filmed and therefore distracted, or it would be used for ridiculous petty incidents such as doing a sequence of cab requirements in the wrong order.

I'll give you an example. Say you have a fatality, and you go into shock. Make a bit of a mess of the procedure but ultimately do it right. How would you feel if someone who can't actually drive a train (but manages you) decides you didn't react appropriately? You'd be absolutely livid. Think it won't happen???? Don't kid yourself it wouldn't happen. It would.

I'm sure someone will come up with the usual cliche that 'if you do nothing wrong, you've nothing to worry about' or 'no decent manager would do that' or similar. But for me it's too far. It won't be value for money, it'd affect morale massively, there would be abuse and expansion of its original purpose. We've got the safest railway in Europe if you believe NR's adverts so why are we in dire need of it?

 

[MrPIC]

To be honest though, I'd probably just do exactly the same as I've done to the front camera on the company Ipad- cover it with black tape.

 

[SPADTrap]

Cameras are clearly unimportant to my TOC as half ours are not even forward facing fitted and those that are have extinguished CCTV healthy lights.
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To be honest though, I'd probably just do exactly the same as I've done to the front camera on the company Ipad- cover it with black tape.

It knows where you live! Mine gives me traffic reports and 'time to home in current traffic' automatically!

 

[kieron]

The report I read said there was no history of phone use and that he wasn't suspected of it, so can you clarify what concerns existed without evidence?

It sounds as though the report you read is inconsistent with the report the RAIB published. Paragraphs 93-96 discuss the issue you brought up.

And I don't know the driver personally, so I can't tell you what difficulties he may have been experiencing at the time this happened. I doubt it would be appropriate to discuss them on a public forum even if I did.

 

[philthetube]

What would the in cab cameras provide that the on board data recorders don't? The only new thing that it'd cover is where the driver is looking, but even then, with the advent of ERTMS and in cab signalling, would it really be necessary?

The driver will still need to watch out for staff and others on the track.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Does the existing data logging record the status of all indicator lights and the position that each switch is set for?

 

[MrPIC]

Pretty much, I know our units have a live monitoring device, so those up in the ivory towers can see exactly whats going on onboard your train, what brake step you're in, speed, whether headlights are on, doors released and what side etc.
Our modern stock shows a hue mount of data on a download, it can tell if you sneezed by a change in cab air pressure.

 

[Flying_Turtle]

And for investigation purposes the have access to the anonimized data of you mobile phones

 

[Clip]

To be honest though, I'd probably just do exactly the same as I've done to the front camera on the company Ipad- cover it with black tape.

Youd probably get into bother by doing that if in cab cameras became a railway standard

 

[ComUtoR]

It sounds as though the report you read is inconsistent with the report the RAIB published. Paragraphs 93-96 discuss the issue you brought up.

The train driver’s DSM had not previously identified any use of a mobile phone by the driver involved in the accident and had no grounds for thinking that he might be contravening FGW’s policy.

As clearly stated the DSM did not believe he was using a mobile phone. With in cab CCTV I believe that DM's will regularly pull the CCTV to check for things like mobile phone usage.

And I don't know the driver personally, so I can't tell you what difficulties he may have been experiencing at the time this happened. I doubt it would be appropriate to discuss them on a public forum even if I did.

The report states the DM had concerns that he was driving a certain way because he was being observed. This is a common problem with FDA's Whatever the other concerns were they haven't been mentioned. He passed his assessments, his driving was up to scratch and his CDP was signed off.

Would CCTV have proven anything ? Unless the CCTV is pulled on a regular basis then it still wouldn't have addressed the DM's concerns.

 

[matt_world2004]

I personally think in cab Cameras are a good idea, providing they are only used in incident data collection, They should not be used as part of the normal performance managment process. . I think Also there should be a lock box; for storing mobile phones in the cab, with the lock box recording whenever a mobile phone is taken in and out ; The driver can still access the mobile phone to report an emergency but it flag up personal access.

London Bus drivers are not allowed to use their phones, in the cab even when on the stand; You will see drivers during stand time getting out of their cabs to check their phones.

 

[GB]

I personally think in cab Cameras are a good idea, providing they are only used in incident data collection, They should not be used as part of the normal performance managment process. . I think Also there should be a lock box; for storing mobile phones in the cab, with the lock box recording whenever a mobile phone is taken in and out ; The driver can still access the mobile phone to report an emergency but it flag up personal access.

.

Doesn't really work if a driver has a personal phone.

 

[matt_world2004]

Doesn't really work if a driver has a personal phone.

Why not, the driver can choose to place his mobile phone in the locker at the depot or in the locker in the train cab. Plenty of businesses demand phones are kept from the area of working.

 

[physics34]

it would be ok, if like Black Boxes on Aeroplanes...only official investigators can view the images.....


....then again cameras arent in cockpits, so why should trains have them.

 

[cjmillsnun]

As has already been noted, airlines can access black box data on aircraft. However unless there is an incident or a reported aircraft fault (the FDR records many parameters) then they won't bother.

 

[najaB]

...then again cameras arent in cockpits, so why should trains have them.

Only because pilots unions have been dead set against it. Both the NTSB and AAIB have called for them to be fitted.

As has already been noted, airlines can access black box data on aircraft. However unless there is an incident or a reported aircraft fault (the FDR records many parameters) then they won't bother.

It's not just a case that they don't bother, the regulators strongly advise airlines not to do it unless there is a very good reason. For exactly the reason that there is a risk for recorders to be a factor in any breakdown of trust between pilots and airlines.

 

[GB]

Plenty of businesses demand phones are kept from the area of working.

Yes, the railway being one of them. But unless you are going to search every individual then what is to stop someone taking their personal phone with them or not putting it in the box in the first place?

In any case, in regards to work phones...the company has easy access to the phone records so it wouldn't be too hard to find out if someone is using one when they shouldn't.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Only because pilots unions have been dead set against it. Both the NTSB and AAIB have called for them to be fitted.
It's not just a case that they don't bother, the regulators strongly advise airlines not to do it unless there is a very good reason. For exactly the reason that there is a risk for recorders to be a factor in any breakdown of trust between pilots and airlines.

Bear in mind many airlines install other data recorders known as QARs, that record many of the same parameters, including pilot input into controls.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Do any units currently have forward facing cameras aimed at the track? I think I remember reading about some Electrostars that might

 

[najaB]

Do any units currently have forward facing cameras aimed at the track? I think I remember reading about some Electrostars that might

Many do, yes.
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Bear in mind many airlines install other data recorders known as QARs, that record many of the same parameters, including pilot input into controls.

Quick Access Recorders don't record audio though. Pilot unions don't have a problem with flight data being read out, but see routine playout of the CVR as an invasion of privacy.

 

[theageofthetra]

All the metro trains I rode on in China (where you can see into the cab) had cameras recording the driver and the guard.

 

[Dave1987]

As has already been noted, airlines can access black box data on aircraft. However unless there is an incident or a reported aircraft fault (the FDR records many parameters) then they won't bother.

No that's incorrect. They can access QR data card but only air crash investigators are allowed to access the FDR and CVR.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes Im pretty sure your thoughts will be that they are 'spying' on you and you will think its a distraction, however as 90019 points out they wont be used to look at how you act in the cab because no one has time for that but they would come in useful at times of an incident as the footage could be used to see if a driver were distracted or, in the main, would exonerate them of any liability.

Now wheres my tin foil hat?

Whilst I am happy to agree I know it will be trawled through when you have a manager out to get you! We have all come across managers like that...............

 

[matt_world2004]

Yes, the railway being one of them. But unless you are going to search every individual then what is to stop someone taking their personal phone with them or not putting it in the box in the first place?

The inevitable sacking when the person is caught.

In any case, in regards to work phones...the company has easy access to the phone records so it wouldn't be too hard to find out if someone is using one when they shouldn't.

Records do not show if someone looked at a phone but didn't actually send any message or make any phonecall.

 

[Clip]

Whilst I am happy to agree I know it will be trawled through when you have a manager out to get you! We have all come across managers like that...............

ooh you old cynic but you could make it that its not allowed to be accessed unless there is an incident so that never happens.

 

[FordFocus]

Why not, the driver can choose to place his mobile phone in the locker at the depot or in the locker in the train cab. Plenty of businesses demand phones are kept from the area of working.

It's funny that my TOC doesn't issue you with a company phone and yet yesterday when I turned my phone back on after driving a train I had 2 missed calls off rosters and control asking me about changing duties. There are times I've had to use my mobile phone for work purposes whilst on the train whether it be contacting the signaller (as the GSM-R is broken) or talking to fleet to fix something on a unit.

It wouldn't be in my TOCs interest to ban phones completely during my shift.

The main reason for buses having a CCTV camera pointed at them and the controls is because they don't have OTMR data recorders like trains do.

Having cameras in cabs contributes little in the way of safety. The disadvantages completely outweigh any advantages of it.

 

[bramling]

There is a request to fill in a survey by the RSSB - ( THE LINK DOESN'T WORK OF COURSE ) - about your thoughts on in cab - i.e. looking at the driver CCTV and it's "potential benefits and challenges "

I know my thoughts

Discuss

On balance I think it's several steps too far.

OTMR is very useful for incident investigation, as is forward-facing CCTV. The latter is useful for making sure an investigation has reached the right outcome - and is as much potentially the driver's friend as its enemy.

But a cab camera sends out the message that we don't trust drivers - whom we pay good money and put them through a detailed selection process and months of training. Sure I don't doubt things go on which shouldn't, but if the prospect of being at the sharp end of a train doing maybe 100 mph isn't enough to stop things happening then I'm not sure a camera necessarily would be. And as others have said, if the driver wants (or needs) to scratch their ball or pick their nose I'd rather they went ahead and did it, rather than sitting there feeling uncomfortable and eventually getting distracted and having an incident.

For the Cowden accident example, whilst it would have been a matter of interest to fully resolve who was driving, it wouldn't have changed anything - the driver was still in charge of the train, and thus responsible for responding to signals. Today chances are there would be a lot more platform CCTV which would probably solve that one in any case, or provide a deterrant if that's what the objective is.

 

[CarlSilva]

I don't see what the problem is. I know you might say nanny state, big brother and all that, but I drive a car with a dashcam that also films the driver. If anything, it makes life safer all round. You know you're on camera, so you know your safe if anything does happen, as they can see you were doing the right thing.