in cab facing cameras

[G136GREYHOUND]

There is a request to fill in a survey by the RSSB - ( THE LINK DOESN'T WORK OF COURSE ) - about your thoughts on in cab - i.e. looking at the driver CCTV and it's "potential benefits and challenges "

I know my thoughts

Discuss

 

[najaB]

Discuss

I'm not a train driver, so my opinion doesn't count for much. But if I were, I could only support this idea if the images were stored, encrypted, on a digital recorder where the TOC has no access to the encryption key.

The RAIB would be custodian of the keys so that footage was available for official investigatory purposes, but not for day-to-day 'performance management'.

 

[ComUtoR]

I know my thoughts

What are they ?


It is unfair to put out blanket "discuss" its hardly a discussion if we all come her and post. "I know my thoughts" What are they ? Do you see it as a benefit ? Is this just an extension of OTMR ? Will it affect a Drivers performance ? Is it a safety critical system ? Can it be used for competency or just for incident evidence ? Does it have audio ?

I know my thoughts, but I have more questions than answers.

 

[Phil.]

The more that drivers are micro-managed like this the more stress that they will be under and the more potential for little mistakes escalating into bigger mistakes.
But to-day's five minute managers don't understand this. All they understand is the generation of paperwork and reports which is their get-out clause for their own poor management.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

What are they ?


It is unfair to put out blanket "discuss" its hardly a discussion if we all come her and post. "I know my thoughts" What are they ? Do you see it as a benefit ? Is this just an extension of OTMR ? Will it affect a Drivers performance ? Is it a safety critical system ? Can it be used for competency or just for incident evidence ? Does it have audio ?

I know my thoughts, but I have more questions than answers.

A fair question, but I am interested in people's opinions without skewing them, and you don't have to be a train driver to have a valid opinion on this one, as everyone can picture witting in their work place, be it office, transport based or whatever, with a camera pointed at them

 

[90019]

Most of the buses I drive have a camera pointed at the driver.
The difference between those that do and the handful that don't is pretty much nothing. Most of the time, it's not even on my mind that it's there, and I just get on with doing my job as I would otherwise.
Management simply don't have the time, nor the inclination, to trawl through the hundreds (if not thousands) of hours of footage recorded by the whole fleet each day, and it's only checked if something is flagged up, like a bus getting damaged and nobody admitting to it.

 

[Clip]

There is a request to fill in a survey by the RSSB - ( THE LINK DOESN'T WORK OF COURSE ) - about your thoughts on in cab - i.e. looking at the driver CCTV and it's "potential benefits and challenges "

I know my thoughts

Discuss

Yes Im pretty sure your thoughts will be that they are 'spying' on you and you will think its a distraction, however as 90019 points out they wont be used to look at how you act in the cab because no one has time for that but they would come in useful at times of an incident as the footage could be used to see if a driver were distracted or, in the main, would exonerate them of any liability.

Now wheres my tin foil hat?

 

[route:oxford]

There is a request to fill in a survey by the RSSB - ( THE LINK DOESN'T WORK OF COURSE ) - about your thoughts on in cab - i.e. looking at the driver CCTV and it's "potential benefits and challenges "

I know my thoughts

Discuss

Same as so many industries then. Generally speaking you forget they are there, but from time to time you are so glad that they are.

 

[yorkie]

Each job is different. One of the jobs I do has cameras pointing at me and everyone else in that area, and I am all for it, as it can prove that I didn't do anything wrong, if anyone claims I did.

 

[Domh245]

What would the in cab cameras provide that the on board data recorders don't? The only new thing that it'd cover is where the driver is looking, but even then, with the advent of ERTMS and in cab signalling, would it really be necessary?

 

[najaB]

What would the in cab cameras provide that the on board data recorders don't? The only new thing that it'd cover is where the driver is looking...

Or, possibly, what they were doing. For example, if there's an suspicion that mobile phone use was a factor in an incident.

 

[JN114]

Can't speak for my current employment, but when I used to work in retail, then retail management, CCTV was always watching. I didn't bat an eyelid as I had nothing to hide. As a manager doing my job properly I didn't have time to sit staring at the monitor spying on my staff, but yes it would be gone back to if an incident occurred.

Given the hundreds of hours of footage that would be accumulated every hour on the railway, there really wouldn't be the time to trawl through it trying to catch somebody out. And as others have said it is most likely to exonerate drivers in the majority of circumstances.

The old cliché of "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to be afraid of" springs to mind... Although I do accept not everyone feels the same way!

 

[route:oxford]

Can't speak for my current employment, but when I used to work in retail, then retail management, CCTV was always watching. I didn't bat an eyelid as I had nothing to hide. As a manager doing my job properly I didn't have time to sit staring at the monitor spying on my staff, but yes it would be gone back to if an incident occurred.

Similar, although I frequently had to remind colleagues to please remember that there is a camera in the lift. Put a woman behind closed doors with bright lighting and three 10' x 8' mirrors and they just can't help themselves.

 

[W230]

I just don't see the benefit with this. But we already have front facing cameras, pantograph cameras etc on new stock so maybe it's coming.

 

[OpsWeb]

Like most things - whilst it is a good idea in concept - it could be open to abuse by managers...

In aviation, you obviously have cockpit voice recorders, and whilst operators have the tools to download the data from the black boxes (which are actually orange ), they are only ever downloaded post-incident and in the presence of the pilots involved.

Maybe if cab cameras are fitted - a code of ethics should be agreed between unions, ATOC and the ORR before they are another tool used to "beat" staff!

 

[ExRes]

Hardly a new issue this, it was being discussed before I finished in 2010, I seem to remember that it wasn't really a thing to worry about as drivers couldn't be spied on if they refused to drive trains with said cameras in the cab

Obviously I should add that I have no idea of the attitude since that time

 

[ComUtoR]

Maybe if cab cameras are fitted - a code of ethics should be agreed between unions, ATOC and the ORR before they are another tool used to "beat" staff!

OTMR is randomly downloaded and part of your competence management. Box tapes are randomly listened to. It would not surprise me if in cab CCTV was randomly pulled or formed part of your competency.

 

[najaB]

Like most things - whilst it is a good idea in concept - it could be open to abuse by managers...

Maybe if cab cameras are fitted - a code of ethics should be agreed between unions, ATOC and the ORR before they are another tool used to "beat" staff!

Hence my suggestion above that it be encrypted and only the RAIB have possession of the keys.

Box tapes are randomly listened to.

I'm not sure if that's the case. I know that both the AAIB and NTSB have suggested it, but pilot's unions have been dead set against it. Even if they are listened to, the airline wouldn't be able to take any action based on something they heard. Has the situation changed in the last couple of years?

 

[GB]

Think "box tapes" means signal box tapes in this context...and yep, they are listened too and for the signaller forms part of their monitoring/assesment.

 

[ComUtoR]

Think "box tapes" means signal box tapes in this context...and yep, they are listened too and for the signaller forms part of their monitoring/assesment.

Yep. I've heard a few good ones in my time. The one with the row about authority to pass a signal is a classic.

 

[broadgage]

I'm not a train driver, so my opinion doesn't count for much. But if I were, I could only support this idea if the images were stored, encrypted, on a digital recorder where the TOC has no access to the encryption key.

The RAIB would be custodian of the keys so that footage was available for official investigatory purposes, but not for day-to-day 'performance management'.

I agree, such recordings could be very valuable in the event of any serious incident, but most staff would not welcome being continually "spied on"

When forward facing cab cameras were introduced, it was stated that these were only for investigating serious incidents such as disputed signal aspects.
At least one TOC has used forward facing cameras to observe drivers of other trains to check for example that a tie was being worn.

 

[physics34]

wont be able to pick my nose or scratch my balls in peace now

 

[kieron]

What would the in cab cameras provide that the on board data recorders don't? The only new thing that it'd cover is where the driver is looking, but even then, with the advent of ERTMS and in cab signalling, would it really be necessary?

This survey seems to have been triggered by the incident discussed in this thread (report here. The driver's manager had concerns about him, but didn't feel he had the evidence to act on them. There is no proof of what the driver did during the incident in the 4-6 seconds between when the doors closed and when the train started off. While inward facing CCTV isn't the only way to address these things, it is one way.

 

[ASharpe]

I work in the same sector as Yorkie and completely agree with him - plus in my role I have a couple of extra reasons.

I'd also like to point to this thread:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=63253

 

[jopsuk]

on the roads:
I was at a presentation by Cemex on what they're doing regarding road safety in cities (especially London). They have big lorry fleets, including two directly employed- their artic fleet and their mixer fleet. They were sticking cameras all over the lorries, to provide evidence in the case of an incident*. They wanted to put them driver-facing in the cab too. The artic fleet wasn't a problem, but the mixer fleet have a strong union and resisted. The presentation was from the company, so the story basically finished there. I'd imagine though that the reason was a failure to come to an agreement on whether the cameras would be used for routine monitoring, used if there's "suspicions" about driving standards or used only in the case of incident.




*though the example footage they said was of a cyclist going up the inside of a lorry looked more like an overtake and left hook by the driver to me...

 

[XDM]

wont be able to pick my nose or scratch my balls in peace now

I will fight for your right to continue to do that.
Many drivers were very opposed to being breathalysed after incidents. But since it came in attitudes have changed. It could be wrong, but I am told only one driver has been found positive after an incident & therefore it has helped a thousand drivers who might have been wrongly accused.
An in cab camera would help in the same way. There were completely unproved assertions that the Uckfield line,Cowden, head on collision, driver had let his guard drive. An act of commission rather than the omission of missing a red signal. An in cab cam would have proved that rubbish.
No fear if you scratch your football. It is irrelevant. It would be irrelevant to reveal it. And sane people would say better to attend to an itch rather than let it distract you, a law of physics.

 

[Flying_Turtle]

Inward facing cameras may cause more harm than good as they might inhibit natural beahviour by drivers especially if the management is poor... and when you focus in other things other than driving bad things happen...

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Are in cab cameras common in the bus/coach and HGV/delivery industries?

 

[MrPIC]

I strongly oppose in cab CCTV, and will fight it tooth and nail if I have to. Just another tool to throw everyone under the bus for the slightest thing.

 

[najaB]

Are in cab cameras common in the bus/coach and HGV/delivery industries?

Bus and coach, yes very common. HGV/delivery, less so.