In-between strike days and intermediate days - why no service?

[Matt_pool]

I use Northern to get to and from work in Liverpool city centre and wasn't expecting them to be running any trains on Thursday morning, but there's nothing all day!

Fortunately I've been able to use the bus to get to and from work instead, but compared to previous strike days the buses this time are a nightmare. The last strike days I was getting to work on time because the buses were running to schedule, but yesterday I got in 25 minutes late because the traffic on the roads was horrendous. A journey that should take just under 40 minutes took over an hour. Today I took an earlier bus, the roads were still horrendous, and I got in 5 minutes late. There are definitely a lot more cars on the roads this time around and more people on the buses, which I'm guessing is due to the cold weather and not as many people wanting to walk or cycle.

Anyway, another nightmare bus journey to work tomorrow, and luckily I'm off on Friday!

 

[Killingworth]

People on here seem to think that strikes happen all the time. Whilst clearly there is ongoing industrial action currently, this has certainly not been the case for the last few decades indeed there hasn't been a national train drivers' strike for example since 1982. People have short memories and I'm sure once these disputes are resolved one way or the other, things will return to normal with most if not all operators providing a good service.

On the plus side people do have short memories. Up here in Northern territory we've seen a number of strikes including one that wiped out Saturday services for many weeks. The first Saturday back trains were rammed. That was leisure market.

The commuting and business market, that provided much of the best revenue, is less forgiving. Every day without a full service of timetabled trains, running on time, leads to a few more Zoom/Teams meetings and more employers and employees pushing for WFH, plus a few more relocations to avoid so much travel.

After the very effective negative marketing campaign that plugged a theme interpreted by many as "if you travel by public transport you'll die" we desperately need a full, reliable, rail service to attract people back. In many ways it might be better to have a total shutdown to get all these disputes resolved once and for all. As it is we have different unions, different employers, different regions all with a selection of disputes far too often escalating into strikes or other practices short of strikes that disrupt services. Added to the normal confusion of ticketing and all the other things that can go wrong it's a miracle so many do still come back to trains.

 

[Watershed]

Apologies if this is an FAQ, but does anyone know how the late starts on the days after strike days work from a Delay Repay perspective? If the first train of the day from my station is usually 0358, but is now planned to be 0731, is it possible to claim I've been delayed by 120 minutes or more just by travelling on what is now the first train of the day?

Legally, you're going to be entitled to a minimum of 50% of the relevant portion of your ticket, under the PRO - provided you bought your ticket before the strike timetable was released (or communicated to you).

However, in practice, you're likely going to have to litigate to get what you're entitled to. Whether that's worth the time and (initially out of pocket, but added to the judgment) cost is something you'll have to judge for yourself.

 

[redengine]

Legally, you're going to be entitled to a minimum of 50% of the relevant portion of your ticket, under the PRO - provided you bought your ticket before the strike timetable was released (or communicated to you).

However, in practice, you're likely going to have to litigate to get what you're entitled to. Whether that's worth the time and (initially out of pocket, but added to the judgment) cost is something you'll have to judge for yourself.

Thanks. I tend to regard it as a game. So long as I know what the rules are, I'll claim what's on offer (although I must admit I'm rubbish at bothering to claim the £1.55 I'm entitled to on a 15-minute delay). If it's unlikely to be forthcoming, I won't bother – 1/232 of an annual season isn't worth the hassle. I already regard myself as being up on the railway this week inasmuch as I can claim for them preventing me from going to work when there's a strike on a Saturday. I suppose I could technically have decided to go out for lunch, although restaurants in December aren't exactly appealing...

 

[James H]

SWR now updating info on their site for the overtime ban days

Services 7am-10pm. Main line services split to run 2tph London to Southampton and 1tph Southampton to Weymouth.

The detailed list of services by route briefly appeared on the site but has vanished for now.

 

[High Dyke]

I’m pretty sure many contributors on this forum that work in planning will take exception to this.

It is not the Planners’ dispute (in the case of the RMT). Yet their workload is at its worst in years, and stress levels are through the roof.

To be told that they are lazy is nothing short of an insult.

Must add though - that this isn’t necessarily known to the public. But in 100% of cases operators’ & NR’s planning teams really are trying their best.

So, why can't EMR provide a service to Lincoln, Grantham or Skegness properly? When UNITE are taking industrial action, but not RMT or ASLEF you have the absurd situation where traincrew and signallers are at work, but the operator is frit to runs trains East of Nottingham, just in case they break down. That's being lazy in my opinion. A train could break down anywhere on their network.

 

[James H]

Presumably the SWR shuttle between Southampton and Weymouth on overtime ban days will be 5 car?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably the SWR shuttle between Southampton and Weymouth on overtime ban days will be 5 car?

The line can only take 5 car trains past Bournemouth due to the power supply, so it'll be 4 or 5, I suspect 5.

 

[James H]

That's not totally true - 10 cars can run to Weymouth in special circumstances, and with only an hourly service, the overall load on the power supply will be less than normal

Here's a 10 car 444 at Wareham on Sunday

 

[Goldfish62]

SWR now updating info on their site for the overtime ban days

Services 7am-10pm. Main line services split to run 2tph London to Southampton and 1tph Southampton to Weymouth.

The detailed list of services by route briefly appeared on the site but has vanished for now.

It's back up now.

The overall service on SWR on Sunday 18th is if anything worse than on strikes days. There's no service whatsoever on the Windsor lines (strike days is 4tph to Windsor via Hounslow).

Next week the SWR service level resembles that of the pre-Covid strikes, except a bit worse. Eg from recollection the Chertsey and Camberley lines had limited bus replacement. They've got nothing next week. Strangely Windsor via Hounslow is 4tph (double the normal service) while the far busier section via Richmond just gets a 2tph Reading service. It really doesn't make sense given that running via Richmond or Hounslow takes the same time.

 

[James H]

It looks like as with previous strikes, Beaulieu Road will get a better service than usual too.

 

[FGW_DID]

I already regard myself as being up on the railway this week inasmuch as I can claim for them preventing me from going to work when there's a strike on a Saturday.

How are they preventing you from going to work? Do you work somewhere that is only accessible by rail transport? Are you being kept captive, by the TOC, in your own home? Blink once for No, twice for yes!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Why can SWR run a good service outside strike days? If SWR doesn't rely on overtime working than it's clearly Chiltern's problem!

As pointed out this has not aged well…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2022 ==

Name another?

SWR

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I am really offended by Chiltern refusing to run any services on 18 December and only a limited service with late start and early finish at least until the end of the year, despite none of the days apart from 24-27 Dec are strike days! What's wrong with that train company?! 18 December isn't even a strike day and the other train companies have no problem running their normal service with a late start!

I don't think "offended" is really the right word - offence usually refers to wounded pride/feelings as a result of something personal like an insult or slur, and you may be assured Chiltern aren't ceasing to operate just to spite your good self. Frustrating, irritating and pathetically lazy, however, it certainly is.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2022 ==

How are they preventing you from going to work? Do you work somewhere that is only accessible by rail transport? Are you being kept captive, by the TOC, in your own home? Blink once for No, twice for yes!

I feel as though this comment is somewhat lacking in terms of consideration for those who do not drive and work far away. There is an enormous range of this country not served adequately by buses, and many bosses do not permit staff to work from home as a result of rail strikes - many jobs it's not possible to either? It's perfectly common for the railway to be someone's only way of accessing work.
S-T

 

[birchesgreen]

I think disgusted is a better word than offended in this case.

 

[Goldfish62]

As pointed out this has not aged well…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2022 ==



SWR

I think the SWR service levels or lack of will be a shock to a lot of people who find they have no service for several weeks. At least Chiltern gave fair warning.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2022 ==

I feel as though this comment is somewhat lacking in terms of consideration for those who do not drive and work far away. There is an enormous range of this country not served adequately by buses, and many bosses do not permit staff to work from home as a result of rail strikes - many jobs it's not possible to either? It's perfectly common for the railway to be someone's only way of accessing work.

Yes, and it seems to be an attitude running through government unfortunately. An attitude which is preventing trying to bring an end to all this disruption.

 

[12LDA28C]

I don't think "offended" is really the right word - offence usually refers to wounded pride/feelings as a result of something personal like an insult or slur, and you may be assured Chiltern aren't ceasing to operate just to spite your good self. Frustrating, irritating and pathetically lazy, however, it certainly is.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2022 ==


I feel as though this comment is somewhat lacking in terms of consideration for those who do not drive and work far away. There is an enormous range of this country not served adequately by buses, and many bosses do not permit staff to work from home as a result of rail strikes - many jobs it's not possible to either? It's perfectly common for the railway to be someone's only way of accessing work.
S-T

Unless you have detailed insight as to exactly why Chiltern are running the service level they are, which I'm assuming you don't, then I suggest you refrain from calling them 'pathetically lazy', which they most certainly are not. That would certainly cause offence (thanks for the definition) to the members of the planning team who are no doubt doing their very best in extremely challenging circumstances.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Unless you have detailed insight as to exactly why Chiltern are running the service level they are, which I'm assuming you don't, then I suggest you refrain from calling them 'pathetically lazy', which they most certainly are not.l

Thank you for your suggestion on how I shall view the situation; unfortunately, I shall dismiss it and continue to perceive it as I see fit.
S-T

 

[12LDA28C]

Thank you for your suggestion on how I shall view the situation; unfortunately, I shall dismiss it and continue to perceive it as I see fit.
S-T

Given your clear lack of understanding of the situation, your perception counts for very little.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Thank you for your suggestion on how I shall view the situation; unfortunately, I shall dismiss it and continue to perceive it as I see fit.
S-T

Several TOC Planning Terms are on the verge of meltdown. This is becoming increasingly clear and has been expressed as such by some on industry calls.

Trust me there is no laziness ongoing just an inability to process that volume of work required, bearing in mind some planners are RMT members so have been on strike this week over their pay and conditions. This means they are not in work to process next weeks train service.

You can argue the rights and wrongs of the industrial action but this thread is about the industrial action and people seem to have overlooked the fact some of the people needed to plan a train service are actually partaking in the action themselves. If you’re arguing planners are lazy for being on strike or overworked I presume guards are lazy for going on strike too?

 

[ar10642]

According to TfL, only 39% of households in inner London have access to a car, and 64% in outer London does so. Therefore I won't use the word "most" to describe the proportion of rail users owning a car. Even for the rich earning £75k+ per annum household income pre-tax, the level of car ownership is just about half.


How about journeys such as Southampton - Brighton and Southampton - Gatwick Airport (where the direct train is much cheaper), or Stevenage - Brighton (where driving requires cutting across the centre of London)?

Gatwick is a special case but the others are easily doable by car. For Stevenage you'd go around the M25.

 

[Ken H]

According to TfL, only 39% of households in inner London have access to a car, and 64% in outer London does so. Therefore I won't use the word "most" to describe the proportion of rail users owning a car. Even for the rich earning £75k+ per annum household income pre-tax, the level of car ownership is just about half.

i dont think London is typical. Most places car ownership is at least 1 per household. probably higher. We have 2. Daughter have 5 (Grown up kids living at home)

(I have inclused company cars as 'owned' - they are available 24/7)

 

[Andyh82]

Surely operators like Northern need to come up with a basic shoulder strike day timetable. Basic services running hourly, no complicated links so nothing running across Manchester, Leeds or Sheffield, 9am to 9pm, with all stock and crew ending at the same location they start at, so the stock that is in the ‘wrong place’ also ends in the ‘wrong place’, and make it available to run 7 days a week, so it doesn’t matter if the post strike day is a weekday, Saturday or Sunday. Ensure nothing needs more than 75% of stock or crew that is available at any location so they only need to design it once.

 

[12LDA28C]

Several TOC Planning Terms are on the verge of meltdown. This is becoming increasingly clear and has been expressed as such by some on industry calls.

Trust me there is no laziness ongoing just an inability to process that volume of work required, bearing in mind some planners are RMT members so have been on strike this week over their pay and conditions. This means they are not in work to process next weeks train service.

You can argue the rights and wrongs of the industrial action but this thread is about the industrial action and people seem to have overlooked the fact some of the people needed to plan a train service are actually partaking in the action themselves. If you’re arguing planners are lazy for being on strike or overworked I presume guards are lazy for going on strike too?

Given the poster's recent signature 'firmly anti-union', I think we can all guess his opinions on anyone who dares withdraw their labour.

 

[43066]

Several TOC Planning Terms are on the verge of meltdown. This is becoming increasingly clear and has been expressed as such by some on industry calls.

Trust me there is no laziness ongoing just an inability to process that volume of work required, bearing in mind some planners are RMT members so have been on strike this week over their pay and conditions. This means they are not in work to process next weeks train service.

It’s getting to the stage where I am where so many mistakes are being made, and daily rosters are being published so late (well below minimum), that traincrew will likely start to ignore last minute changes because of the short notice. Everyone so far is being flexible to help out, but yet again goodwill is being pushed to the limit…

 

[philosopher]

The current strikes / industrial action affects different TOCs / routes in different ways so people who moan about 'X can provide a reasonable service even on strike days so why can't Y' are failing to understand the situation.

Of course it's entirely possible that an operator would love to run services but is unable to do so due to a lack of signalling staff in the relevant signalling centre, for example.

Most passengers are not going to know and I do not think should be expected to know the details of the situation for each train operator, such as whether they DOO or not. Therefore I don’t think passengers should be blamed for not understanding the situation each operator is in.

It should be up to the train companies to explain why they can’t run services at certain times or to certain locations.

 

[142blue]

Surely operators like Northern need to come up with a basic shoulder strike day timetable. Basic services running hourly, no complicated links so nothing running across Manchester, Leeds or Sheffield, 9am to 9pm, with all stock and crew ending at the same location they start at, so the stock that is in the ‘wrong place’ also ends in the ‘wrong place’, and make it available to run 7 days a week, so it doesn’t matter if the post strike day is a weekday, Saturday or Sunday. Ensure nothing needs more than 75% of stock or crew that is available at any location so they only need to design it once.

And this is why I don't understand why something can't be put together

I look at the situation tomorrow and think how the hell are you supposed to travel.

 

[zwk500]

Thank you for your suggestion on how I shall view the situation; unfortunately, I shall dismiss it and continue to perceive it as I see fit.
S-T

The arrogance in this post is quite something to behold.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The arrogance in this post is quite something to behold.

No arrogance is intended at all, I just don't wish to be told to think a way that I don't. There's too much "you don't work in the railway so you need to think like this," and I will continue to perceive what happens based on my individual experiences, not forced sympathy from pro-unions. I respect all other opinions but at the same time will not accept simply being told to change my own.

 

[zwk500]

No arrogance is intended at all, I just don't wish to be told to think a way that I don't.

By all means keep digging yourself into a hole, but 'I don't wish to be told that I'm wrong' is arrogant to the point of absurdity.

Chiltern's planning team are extremely good, and work exceptionally hard, every time that I worked with them (between 5 and 3 years ago now).