Improving XC services to Anglia

[Waverley125]

While the NE-SW and NW-South corridor have very good connections, Anglia is one of the worst served areas in terms of long distance trains to the rest of the country, with only the Norwich-Liverpool (often cut short at Nottingham) and the Stansted-Birmingham trains really being 'interregional', London trains aside.

As such, what would be thoughts for two new services operating out of the region.

Firstly, Harwich Town-Blackpool(EMT) running:

Harwich Town
Harwich International
Ipswich
Stowmarket
Bury St Edmunds
Ely
Peterborough
Grantham
Nottingham
Langley Mill
Alfreton
Chesterfield
Sheffield
Manchester Piccadilly
Manchester Oxford Road
Bolton
Preston
Poulton le Fylde
Blackpool

and secondly

Norwich-Shrewsbury, running

Norwich
Wymondham
Thetford
Ely
Peterborough
Stamford
Oakham
Melton Mowbray
Leicester
Nuneaton
Birmingham New Street
Sandwell & Dudley
Wolverhampton
Telford
Shrewsbury

 

[LE Greys]

Norwich-Glasgow Queen Street via York, operated by Voyagers, calling at Thetford, Ely, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark, Retford, Doncaster, (Wakefield Westgate, Leeds,) York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Berwick, Edinburgh Waverley, Haymarket and Falkirk High.

Well, perhaps not, the Towns Line is a bit full. Still, that would use the extra path created by Edinburgh-Glasgow electrification for something other than just the usual shuttle. It would actually be quicker than the current route as well, if you lived anywhere from York northwards.

 

[WestCoast]

I am reminded of the Harwich Parkstone Quay - Manchester Piccadilly boat trains.

 

[317666]

I think that the current services are alright at Cambridge, but would be nicer if they are more frequent. Personally, if I'm making a regional journey I tend to go down to London and change there, as it's often quicker and I'm not a fan of Class 170s!

 

[Class172]

Here's one:

Not all stops shown:
Lowestoft—Norwich—Ely—Peterborough—Leicester—Nuneaton—Birmingham N St—Worcester S Hill—Gloucester—Newport—Cardiff Central—Swansea

This would be operated by XC using some 22xs or if not dig out some loco-hauled stock and use a 57/67.

 

[dk1]

I am reminded of the Harwich Parkstone Quay - Manchester Piccadilly boat trains.

That traffic has unfortunatley long been lost to air.

 

[tbtc]

What happened to that plan to introduce a "Boat Train" that someone claimed he was seriously going to set up? Funny how that was never heard of again...

Best thing to do, in the short term, would be to boost the services east of Peterborough (extend more XC services beyond Leicester, hourly Ipswich - Peterborough, better co-ordination so that Ely becomes a "turn up and go" station for Norwich/ Peterborough/ Cambridge...), rather than come up with complicated routes into other "territory"

PS: Isn't "Anglia" a word for all of England? And "East Anglia" a better description for that neck of the woods?

 

[dk1]

What happened to that plan to introduce a "Boat Train" that someone claimed he was seriously going to set up? Funny how that was never heard of again...

Best thing to do, in the short term, would be to boost the services east of Peterborough (extend more XC services beyond Leicester, hourly Ipswich - Peterborough, better co-ordination so that Ely becomes a "turn up and go" station for Norwich/ Peterborough/ Cambridge...), rather than come up with complicated routes into other "territory"

PS: Isn't "Anglia" a word for all of England? And "East Anglia" a better description for that neck of the woods?

In an ideal world Cambridge would be located at Ely. That would make thinks much more simple.

I have never been convinced Ipswich-Peterborough warrants an hourly service. Even when trains ran twice every 3 hours & through to & alternating between Birmingham & NW destinations they where hardly full. Ely is very good for many connections but no use for ECML services 2 changes would be required if anything terminated here. Also duplication exists Kennet-Bury-Ipswich with the Cambridge service. This is much improved now to hourly & well used all day.

 

[traveller1]

I am reminded of the Harwich Parkstone Quay - Manchester Piccadilly boat trains.

Yes, looking back at my 1983/4 BR timetable there were plenty of longer distance "XC-type" services running then that no longer exist today due to regional TOCs, even Swansea to Bristol Temple Meads directly is no longer possible!

 

[Waverley125]

I'd agree with more local services, probably Peterborough-Ipswich:

Whittlesea
March
Manea
Ely
Kennett
Bury St Edmunds
Thurston
Elmswell
Stowmarket
Needham Market
Ipswich

and also Stansted-Nottingham:

Audley End
Great Chesterford
Whittlesford Parkway
Shelford
Cambridge
Waterbeach
Ely
March
Whittlesea
Peterborough
Grantham
Bingham
Radcliffe
Nottingham

I'd also extend the existing Leicester-Birmingham stopper through to Peterborough & Wolverhampton, giving something like

Stamford
Ketton
Oakham
Melton Mowbray
Syston
Leicester
South Wigston
Narborough
Hinckley
Nuneaton
Coleshill Parkway
Birmingham New Street
Smethwick Rolfe Street
Smethwick Galton Bridge
Sandwell & Dudley
Wolverhampton

lastly, I'd extend the existing Birmingham NS-Stansted service to start from Hereford, running

Birmingham New Street
University
Bromsgrove
Droitwich Spa
Worcester Foregate Street
Malvern Link
Great Malvern
Ledbury
Hereford


all the above run with 3 car 170s or 185s from northern, with the longer-distance (I.e. Norwich-Liverpool/Shrewsbury, Harwich-Blackpool & Stansted-Hereford) to be run with 22Xs

this would give something like:

Ely-Nottingham: 2tph

Cambridge-Peterborough: 2tph

Norwich-Peterborough: 2tph

Bury St Edmunds-Peterborough: 2tph

Birmingham-Leicester: 3tph (I'd imagine supplemented by another 'all shacks')

Leicester-Peterborough: 3tph

 

[MidnightFlyer]

170s and 185s from Northern?!

 

[Blindtraveler]

cant help but wonder if there would be a need to link stansted with yorkshire?
Stansted airport - Leicester, same stops as current XC Service, the East Mids PW, Sheffield, medowhal, leeds, skipton. Lots of connectivitty to other services there and deliberately serving 2 sites with medium to long distance bus and coach services.
. 170 or 185 being the traction although in theory you could do MK2s with 67 and DVT if units are not available.

If popular, the service could even form an S and C semi fast to Carlisle and although it wouldnt be quick it offers a direct train from cumbria to a popular and busy airport

 

[Class172]

Lastly, I'd extend the existing Birmingham NS-Stansted service to start from Hereford, running

Birmingham New Street
University
Bromsgrove
Droitwich Spa
Worcester Foregate Street
Malvern Link
Great Malvern
Ledbury
Hereford

Oooh… A long distance service for Droitwich, how kind. hock:

all the above run with 3 car 170s or 185s from northern, with the longer-distance (I.e. Norwich-Liverpool/Shrewsbury, Harwich-Blackpool & Stansted-Hereford) to be run with 22Xs

Do you mean 185s and 170s from FTPE?

 

[roblondon]

A bit bonkers in most of your suggestions I think. A second hourly Stansted - Cambridge (poss through to Norwich) is all that's likely or justifiable in an area of sparse population and slow journey times (especially in an era of scant resources).

 

[tbtc]

In an ideal world Cambridge would be located at Ely. That would make thinks much more simple

Absolutely

I have never been convinced Ipswich-Peterborough warrants an hourly service. Even when trains ran twice every 3 hours & through to & alternating between Birmingham & NW destinations they where hardly full. Ely is very good for many connections but no use for ECML services 2 changes would be required if anything terminated here. Also duplication exists Kennet-Bury-Ipswich with the Cambridge service. This is much improved now to hourly & well used all day.

My thinking was that if you doubled the XC Stansted service and beefed up the Ipswich - Peterborough to hourly then you'd have:

• Four trains an hour from Ely to Peterborough
• Four trains an hour from Ely to Cambridge
• Two trains an hour from Ely to Norwich
• Two trains an hour from Ipswich to Kennett (changing at Ely to the frequent Cambridge service would give two chances an hour for Ipswich - Cambridge

That's not a *huge* number of extra services, but a little co-ordination would give services a "turn up and go" frequency. Post HS2, when spaces are freed up on the ECML then there'd maybe be scope for the Ipswich - Peterborough service to run further north.

Problem is, you are combining/ organising services run by four TOCs (FCC, NXEA, EMT, XC), which is never going to be easy...

(and, no, 185s would be complete overkill on these flat routes!)

 

[Aictos]

I would be happy with a Cambridge to Blackpool North service running 3 times a days calling at:

Ely
March* To Pick Up/Set Down Only
Peterborough
Grantham* To Pick Up/Set Down Only
Nottingham
Chesterfield
Sheffield
Huddersfield
Manchester Victoria
Bolton
Preston
Poulton le Fylde* To Pick Up/Set Down Only
Blackpool

Managed by Grand Central, the entire GC fleet of 180s and HSTs would be replaced by Siemens ICE TD's in 7 car formations which would be seen as a trial programme for potential orders by other TOCs ie First Group wishing to place a order to replace their HST fleet, GC's existing fleet would be used to bolster other operators and provide much needed seating capacity.

 

[Class172]

If you're going to introduce some more long-distance services, due to the topography of East Anglia, then we should use 22xs or sone loco-hauled stock (either MK2s or MK3s with a class 57/67, or even HSTs).

 

[Aictos]

If you're going to introduce some more long-distance services, due to the topography of East Anglia, then we should use 22xs or sone loco-hauled stock (either MK2s or MK3s with a class 57/67, or even HSTs).

Hence why I believe Siemens ICE TD's would be better off replacing the entire existing Grand Central fleet and then providing Hull to Doncaster is wired up then Siemens ICE T's could be used to replace the First Hull Trains fleet allowing the fleets of HSTs and Class 180s to be used elsewhere.

 

[Martin_1981]

How about extension of the current all stations Birmingham-Leicester service to run fast after Leicester to Peterborough and Ely and then continuing to Norwich and Ipswich on alternate hours. Something like:-

Birmingham NS
Coleshill Parkway
Nuneaton
Hinckley
Narborough
South Wigston
Leicester
Peterborough
Ely
Thetford
Norwich

and as above to Ely and then:-

Bury St Edmunds
Stowmarket
Ipswich

 

[Blindtraveler]

id say good idea

 

[dk1]

How about extension of the current all stations Birmingham-Leicester service to run fast after Leicester to Peterborough and Ely and then continuing to Norwich and Ipswich on alternate hours. Something like:-

Birmingham NS
Coleshill Parkway
Nuneaton
Hinckley
Narborough
South Wigston
Leicester
Peterborough
Ely
Thetford
Norwich

and as above to Ely and then:-

Bury St Edmunds
Stowmarket
Ipswich

Exactly where we where back in 1993. All came down to crew knowledge & the need for Norwich crews to sign Leic-Brum, Cambridge crews to sign Pbo-Nott & Brum crews to sign Ely-Nrw.

 

[LE Greys]

Absolutely



My thinking was that if you doubled the XC Stansted service and beefed up the Ipswich - Peterborough to hourly then you'd have:

• Four trains an hour from Ely to Peterborough
• Four trains an hour from Ely to Cambridge
• Two trains an hour from Ely to Norwich
• Two trains an hour from Ipswich to Kennett (changing at Ely to the frequent Cambridge service would give two chances an hour for Ipswich - Cambridge

That's not a *huge* number of extra services, but a little co-ordination would give services a "turn up and go" frequency. Post HS2, when spaces are freed up on the ECML then there'd maybe be scope for the Ipswich - Peterborough service to run further north.

Problem is, you are combining/ organising services run by four TOCs (FCC, NXEA, EMT, XC), which is never going to be easy...

(and, no, 185s would be complete overkill on these flat routes!)

Now this makes a lot of sense. The reason I was going for an ECML "turn left at Peterborough" option was more about reducing changes there than anything else (perhaps because my mother is going to have to give my great aunt a lift to Stevenage the day after tomorrow to avoid her having to do Cambridge-Peterborough-York with a change). I'm a bit dubious myself about that one. Getting XC a foot in the Queen Street door would have been an added benefit.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How about extension of the current all stations Birmingham-Leicester service to run fast after Leicester to Peterborough and Ely and then continuing to Norwich and Ipswich on alternate hours. Something like:-

Birmingham NS
Coleshill Parkway
Nuneaton
Hinckley
Narborough
South Wigston
Leicester
Peterborough
Ely
Thetford
Norwich

and as above to Ely and then:-

Bury St Edmunds
Stowmarket
Ipswich

This makes sense as well.

 

[MCR247]

These threads make me laugh!

 

[150222]

Ipswich to Leeds/Glasgow Central via Lowestoft, Norwich, Cambridge, Peterbrough, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Carstairs,
(Then to Glasgow or...) Carlisle and Shipley with class 180's.

 

[Dewedin]

Ipswich to Leeds/Glasgow Central via Lowestoft, Norwich, Cambridge, Peterbrough, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Carstairs,
(Then to Glasgow or...) Carlisle and Shipley with class 180's.

That would never work. Imagine being able to travel from York to Edinburgh on a York to Leeds ticket!

 

[LE Greys]

In the spirit of humour:
Great Yarmouth, Berney Arms, Reedham, Cantley, Buckenham, Brundall, Brundall Gardens, Norwich Thorpe (reverse), Wymondham, Spooner Row, Attleborough, Eccles Road, Harling Road, Thetford, Lakenheath, Shippea Hill, Ely, Waterbeach, Cambridge (reverse), Waterbeach (again), Ely (again), Manea, March, Peterborough, Spalding, Sleaford, Lincoln Central, Saxilby, Gainsborough Lea Road, Doncaster, Knottingley, Pontefract Monkhill, Glasshoughton, Castleford, Woodlesford, Leeds

This gives plenty of out-of-the-way places a vital community link, and minimises "trespass" on other inter-city TOC's lines.

 

[dk1]

These threads make me laugh!

Not a lot of thought to the financial implications is there mate. Just join up stations to make a pretty line on the map.

 

[cle]

Isn't there a planned second Birmingham - Stansted train?

Another easy addition would be extending the Norwich - Cambridge to Stansted too, surely? With this, some Audley End calls could be removed from others.

 

[WestCountry]

Main capacity issues that I can see (off-peak at least) seem to be Stansted - Peterborough and Norwich - Peterborough. If SSD northbound gets taken by another BHM service, another service NRW - ELY - (somewhere? Bury St. Edmunds?/CBG alternately?) could connect into it or another ELY - PBO service.

 

[Bald Rick]

Isn't there a planned second Birmingham - Stansted train?

Another easy addition would be extending the Norwich - Cambridge to Stansted too, surely? With this, some Audley End calls could be removed from others.

Not planned, merely aspired to. But no one wants to pay for the 2nd tunnel under the runway, as 7 tph each way on a single line is stretching it a bit.

In the spirit of suggestions above, how about a resurrection of international services from Anglia :

Harwich International - Ipswich - Cambridge - Stratford - Barking - Ebbsfleet - Eurotunnel - Lille - Brussels - Antwerp - Rotterdam - Hook of Holland. A bit of electrification from Haughley - Cambridge and the right multi-voltage stock it could just about beat the competition on the North Sea.