Improving south WCML services Post HS2

[Farigiraf]

Thought about putting this in another subforum but decided on this. Let your crayons run wild!

I couldn't find a thread particularly fitting for this but apologies if there already is one - Now that HS2 has basically been scrapped for most of it, Avanti/National Rail will probably want to make as much use of Birmingham-Old Oak as possible to prove it wasn't wasted money, so a lot of space on the south West Coast Main Line will free up for slower services.
How could these services (London Northwestern, Southern, Overground) be improved?
To start things off I'd like to see Southern returning the Milton Keynes-South London trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"Aston to Acton" without Euston could remove precisely one train per hour from the south WCML.

What do we do with that? I'd suggest a second Trent Valley semifast if it can be pathed further north, otherwise an hourly LNR fast Euston-MKC-Northampton.

 

[Farigiraf]

I'd suggest a second Trent Valley semifast if it can be pathed further north, otherwise an hourly LNR fast Euston-MKC-Northampton.

Maybe another Euston to Liverpool calling everywhere* on the Trent Valley and going via Northampton?
*Including 'Polesworth Parkway' which this service could encourage the construction of

 

[Peter Sarf]

Thought about putting this in another subforum but decided on this. Let your crayons run wild!

I couldn't find a thread particularly fitting for this but apologies if there already is one - Now that HS2 has basically been scrapped for most of it, Avanti/National Rail will probably want to make as much use of Birmingham-Old Oak as possible to prove it wasn't wasted money, so a lot of space on the south West Coast Main Line will free up for slower services.
How could these services (London Northwestern, Southern, Overground) be improved?
To start things off I'd like to see Southern returning the Milton Keynes-South London trains.

Who says HS2 will get electrified - more money to save. If so then I have found a use for the 68s+Mk5s. Infact Chiltern might like to use it.

If HS2 or parts thereof take over some WCML services then its more freight paths and a few more MUs.

I know HS2 hangs in the balance but has anywhere near a decision been made ?.

 

[cle]

Who says HS2 will get electrified - more money to save. If so then I have found a use for the 68s+Mk5s. Infact Chiltern might like to use it.

If HS2 or parts thereof take over some WCML services then its more freight paths and a few more MUs.

I know HS2 hangs in the balance but has anywhere near a decision been made ?.

It is waiting until the Tories slither out of Manchester.

If HS2 reaches the WCML at Handsacre only, I would think another northern TV (i.e. Rugeley and Stafford) to Crewe service could run via HS2. And all 3 Manchesters. Maybe something else via Stone.

And then an almost metro service to Northampton and Milton Keynes. Space for 2tph Southern (to/from Watford at least).

Fasts could do:
3tph New St (various patterns but all Watford / MKC / Rugby) - one for Wolves and onwards.
2tph Crewe (various patterns but all Watford / MKC / Rugby/Nuneaton - one via Stoke)
1tph North Wales (same)
2tph Northampton (same, 1tph on to Rugby for LB)
1tph random but not on HS2 path - maybe a Lancs stopper, placate with a Euston service.

 

[JonathanH]

And all 3 Manchesters

A service linking Manchester to Milton Keynes service is still needed.

"Aston to Acton" without Euston could remove precisely one train per hour from the south WCML.

What do we do with that?

One extra hourly call at Watford Junction on the fast line in an existing service.

 

[Farigiraf]

A thought that occurred to me - Could Grand Central (or any other TOC willing) bring back their plans for a Blackpool North train? You could possibly make it split at Crewe/Bank Quay with 1 half to Blackpool and the other as some kind of northern intercity doing a Bolton/Blackburn/Burnley limited stop service (and in classic open-access operator fashion avoid Manchester)

Could also utilize the south WCML space and make some weird calls (Like Lumo's Morpeth) at Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley for EWR or even Willesden J)

 

[Gaelan]

Who says HS2 will get electrified - more money to save. If so then I have found a use for the 68s+Mk5s. Infact Chiltern might like to use it.

Hey, haven't we got a bunch of HSTs going spare now?

 

[Farigiraf]

Hey, haven't we got a bunch of HSTs going spare now?

Anyone from Scotland showing up at Euston for the shiny new HS2 and they see a dreaded HST (Not that I don't like them ). I'm sure they wish they could've NIMBY'd that! (although a HS2 HST has a ring to it)

 

[cle]

A service linking Manchester to Milton Keynes service is still needed.

True, good point. That could be a TV one, or at least also call at Rugby and Nuneaton. Stoke and Macclesfield will have a faster service. MKC-Manchester isn't so time sensitive that 2 more stops would make a dent.

A thought that occurred to me - Could Grand Central (or any other TOC willing) bring back their plans for a Blackpool North train? You could possibly make it split at Crewe/Bank Quay with 1 half to Blackpool and the other as some kind of northern intercity doing a Bolton/Blackburn/Burnley limited stop service (and in classic open-access operator fashion avoid Manchester)

Could also utilize the south WCML space and make some weird calls (Like Lumo's Morpeth) at Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley for EWR or even Willesden J)

I could see the operator becoming more quirky with the bandwidth they get. Willesden would need platforms. We might possibly see a bigger role for Bletchley in terms of calls, once EWR is up and running, and hopefully more development follows.

 

[A0]

And then an almost metro service to Northampton and Milton Keynes. Space for 2tph Southern (to/from Watford at least).

A "metro" service to Northampton would be an utter waste of time - what Northampton needs is 3 tph to London with sub 60 minute journey times, 2 tph to Birmingham with 4 stops - Long Buckby, Rugby, Coventry & International and a sub 60 minute journey time and an hourly Crewe / Stoke service stopping along the TV.

A "metro" service getting to Northampton will take forever - it's the last thing needed.

 

[Rail Quest]

What is a real shame, particularly if 2a is included in the cancellation is that barely any paths for freight will be made available, one of the crucial benefits of HS2 IMO.

If, theoretically all avanti services out of Euston can move to high speed line (big if) then personally, Id want what is currently the fast lines to be taken by any LNWR expresses and extra stopping services from the slow lines. Alternatively, I suppose freight trains could use the fastlines themselves so that they can utilize the direct rugby-wolverton stretch whilst all (or all but 1) lnwr service goes via Northampton. This should increase capacity and speed of freight on the South section but....

The issue I could forsee with this though is without phase 2a, the Trent Valley and staffordshire sections would be key bottlenecks.

 

[Peter Sarf]

What is a real shame, particularly if 2a is included in the cancellation is that barely any paths for freight will be made available, one of the crucial benefits of HS2 IMO.

If, theoretically all avanti services out of Euston can move to high speed line (big if) then personally, Id want what is currently the fast lines to be taken by any LNWR expresses and extra stopping services from the slow lines. Alternatively, I suppose freight trains could use the fastlines themselves so that they can utilize the direct rugby-wolverton stretch whilst all (or all but 1) lnwr service goes via Northampton. This should increase capacity and speed of freight on the South section but....

The issue I could forsee with this though is without phase 2a, the Trent Valley and staffordshire sections would be key bottlenecks.

The phase 2a (so from Lichfield to Crewe) is not very expensive (£2.3bn iirc). Furthermore it would allow fast trains to avoid some of the slow bends I think exist South of Stafford ?. So I would hope it would still go ahead (thinking under the shadow of speculation that HS2 is to be canned) and allow freight more space around there.

 

[Rail Quest]

The phase 2a (so from Lichfield to Crewe) is not very expensive (£2.3bn iirc). Furthermore it would allow fast trains to avoid some of the slow bends I think exist South of Stafford ?. So I would hope it would still go ahead (thinking under the shadow of speculation that HS2 is to be canned) and allow freight more space around there.

Definitely. Thats what I'm hoping as at least that could mean freight train boosted capacity as far as Crewe, the major hub for containers already.

However I'm not getting my hopes up. IMO the government could be doing this just to appeal to potential anti-HS2 voters (as cost savings arent really of concern if you cancel a project, phase 2, thats not properly rampped up yet) so in their eyes, 2b is probably seen just as bad

 

[JonathanH]

A "metro" service to Northampton would be an utter waste of time - what Northampton needs is 3 tph to London with sub 60 minute journey times, 2 tph to Birmingham with 4 stops - Long Buckby, Rugby, Coventry & International and a sub 60 minute journey time and an hourly Crewe / Stoke service stopping along the TV.

Unfortunately, with the best will in the world, none of those places need that sort of service towards Northampton.

The hourly stopping service along the Trent Valley is all the more useful for it running fast to London from Rugby, rather than via Northampton. The capacity for 2tph at Coventry, International and New Street is for a Rugby, Milton Keynes, Watford and London service. Going via Northampton adds 15 minutes.

Northampton needs good connections at Rugby and a quick service to London but it will has to take its place in the service pattern beyond that. Same as other places with the misfortune to be on a loop.

 

[Bartsimho]

Who says HS2 will get electrified - more money to save. If so then I have found a use for the 68s+Mk5s. Infact Chiltern might like to use it.

If HS2 or parts thereof take over some WCML services then its more freight paths and a few more MUs.

I know HS2 hangs in the balance but has anywhere near a decision been made ?.

At least it's a maximum of a year and a half until a chance to have a say happens and electrification would probably not be starting before then

What is a real shame, particularly if 2a is included in the cancellation is that barely any paths for freight will be made available, one of the crucial benefits of HS2 IMO.

If, theoretically all avanti services out of Euston can move to high speed line (big if) then personally, Id want what is currently the fast lines to be taken by any LNWR expresses and extra stopping services from the slow lines. Alternatively, I suppose freight trains could use the fastlines themselves so that they can utilize the direct rugby-wolverton stretch whilst all (or all but 1) lnwr service goes via Northampton. This should increase capacity and speed of freight on the South section but....

The issue I could forsee with this though is without phase 2a, the Trent Valley and staffordshire sections would be key bottlenecks.

Same thing as above but the voter base of the area effected is important to the main challenger

 

[cle]

A "metro" service to Northampton would be an utter waste of time - what Northampton needs is 3 tph to London with sub 60 minute journey times, 2 tph to Birmingham with 4 stops - Long Buckby, Rugby, Coventry & International and a sub 60 minute journey time and an hourly Crewe / Stoke service stopping along the TV.

A "metro" service getting to Northampton will take forever - it's the last thing needed.

By metro, I meant frequency, not stopping pattern. But I can see how that was confusing. I'd think 4tph to London (two fast, two slow) - 1 on to Rugby, another to B'ham - would be enough.

I'd trial a EWR service to Oxford - more from a terminating POV running through MKC - and see if any traction.