Improving rail services in Yorkshire

[mumrar]

following on from the Bradford thread, I'm sure we can agree that services in the northeast, in both stock quality, journey times and frequency, are, for the most part abysmally poor. Journey flows which could be massive moneyspinners are neglected, and the motorways and trunk roads are clogged with traffic. But how can the situation be improved?

Personally, i think the answer has to be in improved frequency, better stock and electrification. The combination of these 3 things should give West Yorkshire and other large urban areas the proper 'metro' style rail network it needs to connect settlements and generate growth. So, what should be done. I'll run through, route by route, city by city.

LEEDS

Airedale & Wharefdale lines

1tp2h Leeds-Morecambe (all) 158
1tp2h Leeds-Carlisle (all) 158
1tph Leeds-Glasgow (Shipley, Bingley, Keighley, Skipton, Settle, Appleby, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Carstairs, Motherwell) 185.
2tph Leeds-Skipton (all) 2x323
4tph Leeds-Bradford F Sq (all) 333
4tph Leeds-Ilkley (all) 333
2tph Bradford F Sq-Skipton (all)
2tph Bradford F Sq-Ilkley
1tph Bradford F Sq-London (Shipley)

New stations: Armley Canal Rd, Kirkstall Abbey, Kirkstall Forge, Apperley Bridge, Manningham, Cross Hills

Harrogate line

4tph Leeds-York (all) New EMUs
1tp2h Harrogate-London (Horsforth)

New stations: Headingley Stadium, Horsforth Woodside, Bramhope & Pool

Caldervale Line

4tph Leeds-Halifax-Huddersfield (all) New EMU
1tph Leeds-Manchester Vic (all) new DMU
1tph York-Preston (all) New DMU
2tph Leeds-Manchester Vic (limited) New DMU
1tph Hull-Southport (Hessle, Brough, Selby, Garforth, Leeds, Bradford Int, Hfax, Todmorden, Rochdale, Victoria, Bolton, Wigan) New DMU
1tph Scarborough-Blackpool (Malton, York, Garforth, Leeds, Bradford Int, Hfax, Sowerby Bridge, Hebden Bridge, Burnley, Accrington, Blackburn, Preston, Poulton le Fylde)

New stations: Armley Moor, Laisterdyke, Low Moor, Hipperholme, Elland, Siddal, Todmorden Burnley Road, Cornholme

Huddersfield Line

4tph TPE Leeds-Manchester Picc (limited) new EMU
4tph Leeds-Huddersfield (all) new EMU
1tph Huddersfield-York via Castleford (all) 158s
1tph Huddersfield-Goole via Pontefract (all) 158s

New stations: White Rose Centre, Horbury Bridge

Hallam Line

2tph Leeds-Nottingham (limited) 158
2tph Leeds-Sheffield (all) New DMU

New stations: Horbury Junction, Crigglestone, Worsborough, Eclcesfield, Brightside

Pontefract Line

2tph Leeds-Goole (all) new EMU
2tph Leeds-Knottingley (all)

New stations: Hunslet, Stourton, Methley Junction

Wakefield Line:

2tph Leeds-London KX (Wakefield Westgate)
1tph Leeds-London St Pancras (Wakefield Westgate, Rotherham)
2tph XC
2tph Leeds-Sheffield (all) New EMU
2tph Leeds-Doncaster (all) New EMU

New stations: Elland Road, Middleton, East Ardesley, Wrenthorpe, Hemsworth, Kilnhurst, Rawmarsh

York & Selby lines

3tph Leeds-York TPE
3tp2h Leeds-York XC
4tph Leeds-York (all) New EMU
1tph Leeds-York Northern (limited)
1tph Leeds-Hull TPE
1tph Leeds-Hull (limited)
2tph Leeds-Hull (all)

New stations: Quarry Hill, Osmondthorpe, Brown Moor, Bolton Percy, Copmanthorpe, Dringhouses

will do Sheffield, Hull, Scarborough & Middlesbrough later

Due to not having local knowledge, are all of these services listed to either start or pass through Leeds station? If that's the case, you do know you've listed a total of 75 departures every hour? Are you actually serious about that target? Like I say, I don't know if there's repeat routes etc. in your post, but if they're all unique services, it's rather over ambitious isn't it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On closer inspection of the finer details, presuming the Huddsfld-Goole and Hudd-York are via Leeds, you want 10 trains per hour between Huddersfield and Leeds, and I can see 7 per hour between Leeds and Manchester (Pic or Vic). Quite mad.

 

[Dave R]

Huddersfield-Goole will be via Wakefield Kirkgate and Pontefract

 

[yorksrob]

On previous occasions, even in rush hour, I've never seen them anything even approaching half full.

Ideal case for a rail-car then. If you look at the Wakefield-Pontefract corridoor, you have a number of towns in need of regeneration, and therefore quality transport links, with a well maintained freight line running through the middle (which would have to be maintained anyway), linking them not only to the nearest large employment centre (Wakefield), but also to a regular express service between other nearby large employment centres (Leeds, Barnsley and Sheffield and Huddersfield). If Network Rail manages to sort out the capacity problems at Westgate, it will also link in with the ECML towards London and services to the rest of the country. Not to use the link would be a waste of the asset.

True, the local bus service may be good enough for short journeys towards Wakefield - albeit slow and often stuck in traffic, but this would never be able to replicate a fast quality, well timed link into the rail network. By all means rationalise - I suspect that one carriage would more than suffice - driver-only operation may even be possible if necessary, but anybody spending anytime at Kirkgate station on a Saturday afternoon will soon see how useful to local people it is.

I personally took a little excursion along the line yesterday evening sometime after the end of the rush hour (Dep Wakefield 19:33) and whilst nowhere near full, the train had passengers in double figures all the way between Wakefield and Pontefract (where I left).

I’d also add that IMO local rail services represent extremely good value for money in general. Looking at Wakefield’s net expenditure for 2008-09 which was £276,461,000, Highways and Transport Services as a whole accounted for only £27,704,000 of that - an amount dwarfed by education £79,057,000 and Adult Social Care £79,482,000. That’s not to say we shouldn’t be spending a lot on other services - rather to illustrate that transport as a whole, as vital as it is, doesn’t take much of the pie anyway (and rail support will likely be less than half of that).

http://www.wakefield.gov.uk/NR/rdon...88B1AEE49530/0/StatementofAccounts_200809.pdf

Yes it will, you will need stock to cover maintenance which now gets carried out on a night, by using the stock later you will not have enough time to carry out the maintenance to a satisfactory standard in the few hours in the plan above so trains would not be ready for the morning run out.

That’s a good point - you may need some new trains to cover those out of service for maintenance - but presumably nowhere near the number needed for large scale increases in service frequencies.

 

[Waverley125]

Due to not having local knowledge, are all of these services listed to either start or pass through Leeds station? If that's the case, you do know you've listed a total of 75 departures every hour? Are you actually serious about that target? Like I say, I don't know if there's repeat routes etc. in your post, but if they're all unique services, it's rather over ambitious isn't it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On closer inspection of the finer details, presuming the Huddsfld-Goole and Hudd-York are via Leeds, you want 10 trains per hour between Huddersfield and Leeds, and I can see 7 per hour between Leeds and Manchester (Pic or Vic). Quite mad.

It's not mad-have you driven the M62? Or tried to do Huddersfield-Leeds or Huddersfield-York at any time of day? Did the 3pm service from Huddersfield-Leeds a few days back, full & standing all the way, and got worse at Dewsbury.

Now, let me count-I'll do it by operator.

EC:

3tph London
1tph Scotland
Total: 4

XC:
2tph Northeast
2tph Southwest
Total: 8

TPE:
4tph Northeast
4tph West
Total: 16

EMT:
1tph London
Total: 17

Northern
1tph Hull-Southport
1tph Scarborough-Blackpool
1tph York-Preston
3tph Leeds-Manchester Vic
4tph Leeds-Halifax
1tph Leeds-Glasgow
1tp2h Leeds-Carlisle
1tp2h Leeds-Morecambe
2tph Leeds-Skipton
4tph Leeds-Ilkley
4tph Leeds-Bradford F Sq
4tph Leeds-Poppleton
4tph Leeds-Huddersfield
2tph Leeds-Goole
2tph Leeds-Knottingley via Featherstone
2tph Leeds-Nottingham
2tph Leeds-Sheffield via Barsnley
2tph Leeds-Sheffield via Wakefield
2tph Leeds-Doncaster
4tph Leeds-York
2tph Leeds-Hull
Total: 65

so 65 departures per hour from Leeds, so a train about every 50 seconds. This would, of course, require big improvements, such as the new terminating bays where the carpark is, and the widening of the eastern approach, which would have to cope with 4 TPE, 2 XC, 2 EC, and 8 Northern, so 16tph.

the major flows are as follows:

Leeds-Bradford stations: 15 tph
Leeds-Skipton: 6tph
Leeds-Wakefield stations: 15tph
Leeds-York: 12tph
Leeds-Huddersfield: 8tph
Leeds-Manchester stations: 7tph

 

[tbtc]

Did the 3pm service from Huddersfield-Leeds a few days back, full & standing all the way, and got worse at Dewsbury

I'd suspect that had a lot more to do with the crazy decision to order three-car units for the Transpenine service, shorter than the four car 158s Northern used which are shorter than the loco hauled services that they replaced.

 

[Waverley125]

possibly. But also because passsenger numbers have massively increased on the line since then.

 

[tbtc]

possibly. But also because passsenger numbers have massively increased on the line since then.

They have, and I think we need *proper* long trains on the Transpennine services before we start trying to find more slots for them. What's the shortest platform that TPE serve on their Leeds routes? Could they use six car trains on all services?

(I appreciate that the Cleethorpes/ Barrow etc lines may be different, but for the purposes of this thread we're mainly discussing trains through Leeds)

 

[mumrar]

Leeds-Bradford stations: 15 tph

Leeds has a smaller population than Birmingham, and Bradford and Wolverhampton are similar populations, I don't think there's a need for 15tph between those two. Your plans still seem over the top

 

[Waverley125]

I think the most you could fit in 16 is 8, probably the same at Huddersfield. Dewsbury is more like 6 but there's loads of room for platform extensions, same at Stalybridge.

I'd run 344s (444s with pantographs)-5 cars, with one car first class and an onboard buffet. That way you get 3.5 cars of standard class (an extra 60 seats or so) plus 150% more first class, and a decent onboard service. Oh, and end doors, which is more suited to services doing a stop only every 20 minutes or so.

Then if demand grows further you can run two units, and voila, you have a 10 coach transpennine train that can actually be counted as an express, rather than just a regional DMU.

 

[MCR247]

Leeds has a smaller population than Birmingham, and Bradford and Wolverhampton are similar populations, I don't think there's a need for 15tph between those two. Your plans still seem over the top

I agree, Leeds doesn't need an hourly EC to Glasgow.

 

[Waverley125]

hourly EC would run up the East coast replacing the present Aberdeen XC services. The Glasgow services would be run by Northern, via the S&C into Central.

 

[tbtc]

hourly EC would run up the East coast replacing the present Aberdeen XC services

...except that XC don't run hourly to Aberdeen...

 

[mumrar]

EC:

3tph London
1tph Scotland
Total: 4

XC:
2tph Northeast
2tph Southwest
Total: 8

TPE:
4tph Northeast
4tph West
Total: 16

EMT:
1tph London
Total: 17

Northern
1tph Hull-Southport
1tph Scarborough-Blackpool
1tph York-Preston
3tph Leeds-Manchester Vic
4tph Leeds-Halifax
1tph Leeds-Glasgow
1tp2h Leeds-Carlisle
1tp2h Leeds-Morecambe
2tph Leeds-Skipton
4tph Leeds-Ilkley
4tph Leeds-Bradford F Sq
4tph Leeds-Poppleton
4tph Leeds-Huddersfield
2tph Leeds-Goole
2tph Leeds-Knottingley via Featherstone
2tph Leeds-Nottingham
2tph Leeds-Sheffield via Barsnley
2tph Leeds-Sheffield via Wakefield
2tph Leeds-Doncaster
4tph Leeds-York
2tph Leeds-Hull
Total: 65

so 65 departures per hour from Leeds

Just out of interest, if you remove the through services, you have 45 services listed as starting from Leeds at varying frequencies per hour. These will need forming workings in to Leeds that then turn around and head back out. So you actually have 20 through services per hour, 45 starting services per hour, and 45 terminating services per hour. That's 110 trains per hour, and then add the dwell time for the services that terminate and head out the same way. Oh yes, your plans don't seem ridiculous at all. I'm sure a widening of the east approach would sort this out - What do you have in mind, 12 bi-directional lines for two miles approaching???

 

[142094]

What's the shortest platform that TPE serve on their Leeds routes? Could they use six car trains on all services?

All stations between York and Leeds can handle a double 2 car 158. Garforth can also just handle a double 185, although the last time I saw this I can't remember if some of the doors at the back were locked out of use. Looking at all the stations on TPE via Leeds, nearly all the stations could easily hold 2x 185s.

 

[tbtc]

All stations between York and Leeds can handle a double 2 car 158. Garforth can also just handle a double 185, although the last time I saw this I can't remember if some of the doors at the back were locked out of use. Looking at all the stations on TPE via Leeds, nearly all the stations could easily hold 2x 185s.

Cheers. Hope some six car (or at least "longer than three car) units can be introduced when the Lancashire electrification frees up the 185s currently used through Preston.

 

[142094]

Would certainly ease the overcrowding you see between Leeds - Huddersfield and other stations. I know a few people who (including myself) always caught the slow York - Leeds Northern service as you're guarateed a seat, and even the conductor has mentioned this a few times.

 

[Waverley125]

There are several ways to facilitate it

1) New West facing bays on current carpark. 4 new cross over platforms-effectively 8 new faces coming into use.

2) send a lot more trains into 7

3) Widen the line between Cross Gates & Leeds to 4 tracks with a broadening of the Quarry Hill viaduct.

4) Improved signalling & sectioning, so new platforms are exclusively A/Wdale & Hgate lines, while all Wakefield, Huddersfield, & Caldervale line services terminate in the existing bays or in through platforms.

I should point out there's also no reason some services can't be connected up e.g. 4tph Leeds-York via Harrogate would become 4tph Leeds-Harrogate-York-Leeds on a continuous loop run.

 

[142094]

I very much doubt if Leeds will be seeing any further infrastructure work in the near future, apart from the new southern entrance. Note I say near future, which I guesstimate at 10-15 years. I was told recently that Leeds is nearly at full capacity as it is, but of course the money isn't there.

Can't see the line east of the station being widened, too many buildings in the way and would cost a huge amount. I would think there is room for a station though just before the Quarry Hill viaduct when going into Leeds station, and there is room next to the ballast sidings there.

 

[Waverley125]

I know. This is stuff I'd like to see, rather than think will.

As for the eastern approach, you'd only need to demolish one building (on the calls) to have enough room to widen the approaches to 4 tracks, as there's enough room to expand the viaduct over the road to the south before that (and it's 3 tracks for some of the way already).

In and around Leeds as well...

-Bradford Crossrail -viaduct from Valley Parade across the city, new station built on the Westfield site. Allows trains to cross the city & run long distance services through the city. Also massive capacity increase due to no need to reverse.

-Halifax platform 1 & station Building-reopen to original station building to give a proper ticket office, waiting room and station facilities that Halifax lacks dreadfully. Original platform 1 also gives extra capacity. Carpark extended in front of building.

-All minor stations-waiting room on both platforms with heating & doors that shut fully.

-Knottingley, Normanton, Pontefract Monkhill, Pontefract Tanshelf, Castleford-fully accessible bridges between platforms, platform canopies, station buildings with ticket offices & facilities.

-Wakefield Kirkgate-massive refurb, CCTV in the subway as well as cleaning, staffed once again, station building restored & reopened, trainshed rebuilt.

 

[Sceptre]

I know. This is stuff I'd like to see, rather than think will.

As for the eastern approach, you'd only need to demolish one building (on the calls) to have enough room to widen the approaches to 4 tracks, as there's enough room to expand the viaduct over the road to the south before that (and it's 3 tracks for some of the way already).

In and around Leeds as well...

-Bradford Crossrail -viaduct from Valley Parade across the city, new station built on the Westfield site. Allows trains to cross the city & run long distance services through the city. Also massive capacity increase due to no need to reverse.

-Halifax platform 1 & station Building-reopen to original station building to give a proper ticket office, waiting room and station facilities that Halifax lacks dreadfully. Original platform 1 also gives extra capacity. Carpark extended in front of building.

-All minor stations-waiting room on both platforms with heating & doors that shut fully.

-Knottingley, Normanton, Pontefract Monkhill, Pontefract Tanshelf, Castleford-fully accessible bridges between platforms, platform canopies, station buildings with ticket offices & facilities.

-Wakefield Kirkgate-massive refurb, CCTV in the subway as well as cleaning, staffed once again, station building restored & reopened, trainshed rebuilt.

I'd actually be interested to see how you'd join Forster Square up to the Interchange. You'd probably have to knock down the Midland to get anywhere from Forster Square and either the Law Courts, St George's Hall, or both to get anywhere from the Interchange. I'd also be interested to see how you'd reopen Halifax's station building; Eureka is kind of in the way and Eureka's carpark is awkward to get to from Square Road.

 

[Waverley125]

I'd actually be interested to see how you'd join Forster Square up to the Interchange. You'd probably have to knock down the Midland to get anywhere from Forster Square and either the Law Courts, St George's Hall, or both to get anywhere from the Interchange. I'd also be interested to see how you'd reopen Halifax's station building; Eureka is kind of in the way and Eureka's carpark is awkward to get to from Square Road.

Well a basic description:

Start off by flattening the gradient from the top of the hill, so the line crosses the present Caldeonia street on the level, and goes over Bridge street. Curving slightly eastwards, through the present site of the law courts (horrible building with no architectural merit). The main station located on the law courts site, joined to the bus interchange via travelators, with Hall Ings going under it (station on a viaduct).

The platforms curve back westwards over the proposed Westfield site, and the viaduct carries the line through the present site of the Valley Road retail park. The line converges with the present alignment where the old Forster Square station & freight throats used to meet. New station is built at the junction of Midland Road & Thorncliffe road to serve Valley Parade & Manningham.

As for Halifax, you'd just move the existing Eureka kids centre out of the building, the main EUREKA building is a few hundred yards away so doesn't pose a problem, while you clear the play area to another site.

 

[Oswyntail]

... I would think there is room for a station though just before the Quarry Hill viaduct when going into Leeds station, and there is room next to the ballast sidings there.

That was indeed part of the plan when Quarry House opened in 1992, intended to serve not only the workers there but also the WYP, Music school and the various hotels and offices planned for the site. The station went the same way as all the lovely plans for the wastelands!

 

[Deerfold]

On closer inspection of the finer details, presuming the Huddsfld-Goole and Hudd-York are via Leeds, you want 10 trains per hour between Huddersfield and Leeds, and I can see 7 per hour between Leeds and Manchester (Pic or Vic). Quite mad.

7 trains an hour between Leeds and Manchester? That'd compare with the current service of 4tph Leeds - Piccadilly and 3tph Leeds - Victoria!