Implied contract terms - ticket delivery methods

[island]

It does not seem to me that the passenger suffered any actual loss.

The ticket could have been displayed from a screenshot, from the phone's email account, in the selling company's app, or from the Files section, amongst other methods.

The seller has offered to reimburse the printing cost and there is no legal entitlement to anything more.

 

[Haywain]

The cost is whatever it cost the OP to print the tickets.

As the OP printed them at home the cost will be negligible.

 

[John R]

As the OP printed them at home the cost will be negligible.

That was my thought, but early on the OP stated:-

It seems they want to refund the costs 'at cost' upon production of a receipt. Therefore, I'll total up the cost of the paper and the ink and then divide as appropriate to get a per page figure. We are talking like 5.225475% of the ticket costs as they were for short commute journeys.

Now I don't know what that translates to in terms of £p, but I would suggest you'd have to have a particular type of mindset to pursue a complaint against the company for the cost. And I'd also suggest that it might make for an easier and less stressful life if they accepted that little things like this happen, and in the grand scheme of things it's easier just to move on and worry about more consequential things in life.

 

[skyhigh]

That was my thought, but early on the OP stated:-

It seems they want to refund the costs 'at cost' upon production of a receipt. Therefore, I'll total up the cost of the paper and the ink and then divide as appropriate to get a per page figure. We are talking like 5.225475% of the ticket costs as they were for short commute journeys.

Now I don't know what that translates to in terms of £p, but I would suggest you'd have to have a particular type of mindset to pursue a complaint against the company for the cost. And I'd also suggest that it might make for an easier and less stressful life if they accepted that little things like this happen, and in the grand scheme of things it's easier just to move on and worry about more consequential things in life.

There is a suggestion upthread that these were £1 sale tickets - so 5% would be 5p per ticket.

 

[Buzby]

'disregard the apple wallet ticket' as they 'may not work'

Ah - an Android user! I love the use of ‘may’. Since I’ve never had an issue in the last few years, I’ve seen lots more with m-ticket failures so I vote for the easiest route every time!

 

[800Travel]

That was my thought, but early on the OP stated:-

It seems they want to refund the costs 'at cost' upon production of a receipt. Therefore, I'll total up the cost of the paper and the ink and then divide as appropriate to get a per page figure. We are talking like 5.225475% of the ticket costs as they were for short commute journeys.

Now I don't know what that translates to in terms of £p, but I would suggest you'd have to have a particular type of mindset to pursue a complaint against the company for the cost. And I'd also suggest that it might make for an easier and less stressful life if they accepted that little things like this happen, and in the grand scheme of things it's easier just to move on and worry about more consequential things in life.

As I explained in my original post, my contact to the company was actually requesting that they fixed the issue. I didn't even raise a complaint - my contact to general CS didn't yield a fix, and then when I re-explained the importance of having it fixed, they just raised it as a complaint. I actually wrote back to them asking why they had done this as I just wanted the issue fixed, and they didn't reply.

The TOC then wrote to me months later saying they'll reimburse the costs and that is all. Hence, I didn't pursue a complaint against the TOC for the cost. They raised it without me asking, and then wrote offering costs only rather than a gesture of goodwill or something like I requested when it became clear it wouldn't be resolved.. The 'costs' are only like 42p total. This isn't something I would've raised.

Therefore, I feel my 'particular mindset' of wanting the issue to be resolved so I could use Apple Wallet which is a method I understand and feel comfortable with isn't anything unusual and I trust your post will be revised accordingly.

Ah - an Android user! I love the use of ‘may’. Since I’ve never had an issue in the last few years, I’ve seen lots more with m-ticket failures so I vote for the easiest route every time!

I have an iPhone - not android.

 

[Haywain]

I’ve seen lots more with m-ticket failures

This is nothing to do with m-tickets.

 

[Watershed]

It does not seem to me that the passenger suffered any actual loss.

The ticket could have been displayed from a screenshot, from the phone's email account, in the selling company's app, or from the Files section, amongst other methods.

The seller has offered to reimburse the printing cost and there is no legal entitlement to anything more.

That would be the pure contractual remedy. But the OP is a consumer and thus the provisions of consumer law may well entitle them to more: indeed, I'd argue they do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Therefore, I feel my 'particular mindset' of wanting the issue to be resolved so I could use Apple Wallet which is a method I understand and feel comfortable with isn't anything unusual and I trust your post will be revised accordingly.

Aside from a refund which it doesn't seem you asked for (so you could purchase from another retailer) I'm not sure how you expected that to be delivered. I do recall this problem coming up before (wasn't it GWR?) but IT fixes aren't quick - the only thing they could have done quickly, and maybe should have done, was to block adding to Wallet to prevent any confusion until fixed.

Pursuing a refund of 40p is something that just doesn't seem a sensible use of your time.

I'd see you as having had a good case for some fairly chunky compensation if you'd been refused travel on the Wallet ticket, but as this was caught before travel and a method was used whereby you could travel I think this is really quite tenuous and just one of those annoying things. Just cease giving their booking site your custom and pick another if you're annoyed with them and want to hit them (lightly) in the pocket.

 

[island]

That would be the pure contractual remedy. But the OP is a consumer and thus the provisions of consumer law may well entitle them to more: indeed, I'd argue they do.

I don’t agree. The only remedy consumer law provides is a price reduction, and even that is a reach. I can’t see a court ruling that an “appropriate amount” is more than a couple of quid.

 

[800Travel]

Aside from a refund which it doesn't seem you asked for (so you could purchase from another retailer) I'm not sure how you expected that to be delivered. I do recall this problem coming up before (wasn't it GWR?) but IT fixes aren't quick - the only thing they could have done quickly, and maybe should have done, was to block adding to Wallet to prevent any confusion until fixed.

Pursuing a refund of 40p is something that just doesn't seem a sensible use of your time.

I'd see you as having had a good case for some fairly chunky compensation if you'd been refused travel on the Wallet ticket, but as this was caught before travel and a method was used whereby you could travel I think this is really quite tenuous and just one of those annoying things. Just cease giving their booking site your custom and pick another if you're annoyed with them and want to hit them (lightly) in the pocket.

The TOC was first contacted about the fault ~4 weeks before the first journey and ~8 weeks before the last. I do feel like there was suitable time for them to try to put a fix in place. Alternatively, seeing as it was all tickets under the same booking reference that showed the same time they could've maybe tried something like booking them separately, and linking the bookings to my account. Individual bookings have worked for me since, just seems to be the issue arises when multiple journeys are added to the basket. I don't know how these things work, but there must've been something they could've done.

Again, I'm not pursuing the refund of the printing costs. Rather a price reduction to recognise the contract was not fulfilled (as outlined by @Watershed 'the provisions of consumer law may well entitle them to more: indeed, I'd argue they do') and then a Gesture of Goodwill to recognise the inconvenience faced over the ~2 month period for having to get in touch so many times, and the poor service experienced etc. They are unlikely to agree with the gesture of goodwill, but they should agree with the price reduction now I've quoted the relevant consumer law sections and this should be more than 40p.

To be honest, I wish I hadn't highlighted re the incorrect times to the TOC and rather just travelled on the tickets as I bought them on the right trains. The problem is, if someone then took my details as they deemed it to be invalid that's just a whole can of worms that is best to avoid - even though anything should be voided/refunded on appeal given the circumstances and that the tickets were actually valid.

I will cease purchasing from them not because there would be a tiny revenue loss, but because there clearly isn't any kind of desire to assist the customer from the back office teams. The general CS teams I spoke to were friendly, but they had to pass it to this other team that just didn't help at all. Then the after sales team I spoke with weren't understanding at all, and just raised it as a complaint because (it felt like) they could've really be bothered to look into it.

 

[superkopite]

but they should agree with the price reduction now I've quoted the relevant consumer law sections and this should be more than 40p.

I am normally a very strong advocate for better customer services in rail, but this case is almost laughable

 

[800Travel]

I am normally a very strong advocate for better customer services in rail, but this case is almost laughable

It wouldn't have even got to this stage if there was better customer services in rail and they resolved the issue for me when I pointed it out, or offered an alternative such as sending me the tickets or receiving a refund.

 

[superkopite]

It wouldn't have even got to this stage if there was better customer services in rail and they resolved the issue for me when I pointed it out, or offered an alternative such as sending me the tickets or receiving a refund.

You never asked for a refund and actually had plenty of alternatives open to you. You just didn't like them. Take the 40p and run.

 

[Buzby]

I have an iPhone - not android

I know you do, you implied it. My reference was to the staffer who claimed they ‘may not work’

This is nothing to do with m-tickets.

This was in reference to the above claim (from staff) that there’s a problem with Apple Wallet. My experience is the opposite.

 

[Haywain]

This was in reference to the above claim (from staff) that there’s a problem with Apple Wallet.

mTickets are held in an app, not in the Apple Wallet. Unlike eTickets which can be held in many forms.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know you do, you implied it. My reference was to the staffer who claimed they ‘may not work’

This was in reference to the above claim (from staff) that there’s a problem with Apple Wallet. My experience is the opposite.

One specific TOC did have an issue for a short while.

 

[Buzby]

mTickets are held in an app, not in the Apple Wallet. Unlike eTickets which can be held in many forms.

Did I say otherwise? The point being if anything is prone to failure, m-tickets are at the top of the list!

 

[Haywain]

Did I say otherwise? The point being if anything is prone to failure, m-tickets are at the top of the list!

You appeared to say otherwise, else why mention mTickets on a thread soecifically about eTickets and the Apple Wallet?

 

[Starmill]

The cost of printing a ticket is unrelated to its face value. The cost is whatever it cost the OP to print the tickets.

Given the cost of the tickets, I would think in this particular case you'd struggle to get more than the cost of printing out of them. It might be a completely different situation if the tickets were substantially more expensive than they were.

I'm well aware of that of course. If you reread you'll see I wasn't actually suggesting that a higher priced ticket would make any difference in regard of the entitlement. Instead I was using it as a guide to proportionality. Indeed you are using the same guideline, or something remarkably similar to what I said, in your own second paragraph .

 

[Buzby]

You appeared to say otherwise, else why mention mTickets on a thread soecifically about eTickets and the Apple Wallet?

Because it is an alternative to Apple Wallet and IMHO far more likely to fail from observing ticket checks across the country - the person stating that AW was problematic was either telling porkies of flying a kite. I can only get mTickets from ScotRail and they even refer to them as their ‘electronic ticket’ so not using them in favour of TicketSplit became an easy choice - but if it bothers you, you might want to complain to them (ScotRail) for their terminology?

 

[kkong]

I can only get mTickets from ScotRail and they even refer to them as their ‘electronic ticket’ so not using them in favour of TicketSplit became an easy choice - but if it bothers you, you might want to complain to them (ScotRail) for their terminology?

It's been established previously (refer to the definition in the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement) that m-Tickets are one of several types of "Electronic Ticket".

That said, all of the signage I have seen recently on ScotRail calls them m-Tickets.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Printed the e-tickets due to concerns re signal. Apple wallet doesn't require mobile signal to show ticket, emails do. I also downloaded the PDF into files, but I find it hard to find files quickly on my phone (as would be required at a ticket gate), so had to print.

This is like claiming they've not provided an adequate way to pay because you are forgetful and have to look up the PIN for your credit card. You can take as long as you like at a ticket gate. You had a pdf ticket in your email and downloaded to your phone and have chosen to make a lengthy and obscure complaint about price reduction due to your choice to print.

You say you just wanted to flag the issue and have it fixed in later posts, but your opening post invoked consumer law and claiming your right to a price reduction, so this may explain the blunt responses in the thread.

HOWEVER! This does not affect the industry's obligations to make stations and services accessible to all kinds of disability, including neurodiversity, and if you feel you have a condition that would make your travel difficult, Passenger Assist is extensive and available to anyone with such needs, whatever they are. You don't need to prove or certify any sort of condition. They're used to helping people with all kinds of needs. Perhaps this sort of service would be for you? Nobody would laugh at you if you booked assistance to get through a ticket barrier due to a condition.

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/help-and-assistance/passenger-assist/
https://www.transportforall.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/DfT_TfA_GuidanceforTrainstaff.pdf (link downloads a pdf)

 

[800Travel]

...You can take as long as you like at a ticket gate...

HOWEVER! This does not affect the industry's obligations to make stations and services accessible to all kinds of disability, including neurodiversity, and if you feel you have a condition that would make your travel difficult, Passenger Assist is extensive and available to anyone with such needs, whatever they are. You don't need to prove or certify any sort of condition. They're used to helping people with all kinds of needs. Perhaps this sort of service would be for you? Nobody would laugh at you if you booked assistance to get through a ticket barrier due to a condition.

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/help-and-assistance/passenger-assist/
https://www.transportforall.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/DfT_TfA_GuidanceforTrainstaff.pdf (link downloads a pdf)

Thanks for the link - hopefully I won't need to use Passenger Assist as I'll switched ticket retailer so shouldn't get the same problem. I didn't really think Passenger Assist would be interested in this kind of stuff - so thank you for alerting me to this though. It's a shame the retailer didn't when I flagged the issue and my condition, as this would've significantly reduced stress.

Re the barriers - I was concerned that if I was standing near the closed barriers fiddling on my phone it would look like I was just purchasing the ticket or something. There are usually BTP staff around the area, and I just find it best to avoid any kind of suspicious behaviour.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Re the barriers - I was concerned that if I was standing near the closed barriers fiddling on my phone it would look like I was just purchasing the ticket or something.

When they scan the ticket they can see when it was purchased, so even if they thought you were they would see as soon as you scanned it that that hadn't happened.