Impartial Retailing ...

[craigy68]

Customer requests a Brighton to Oxford Circus (LU) single ticket to travel on a weekday after 12pm ... following the rules of impartial retailing correctly ... what ticket do you sell them ? ...

 

[paul1609]

Anytime single to London U1?

 

[glynn80]

The ATOC Retail Standard Guide states the following on Impartiality :

(I have only posted the relevant text, the impartiality section is quite extensive containing diagrams and process procedures etc.)

C.1 Impartiality

This is the most important requirement and is necessary because Retailers will be selling tickets or giving information about different TOCs.

Retailers at impartial Points of Sale must therefore act fairly and impartially between TOCs and any information that is provided must be factual, accurate and impartial (TSA clause 6-30(1)(a)).

Impartiality simply means providing the customer with information or a ticket that is the most suitable for their needs. Retailers must not favour their own train services, or those of any TOC over others in providing information or selling the ticket.

Where a customer asks to purchase a specific fare for a specific journey, this can be sold without giving any further information (TSA clause 6-30(2)(d)).

In many cases only one fare will meet the customer’s requirements as only one TOC provides a service for the journey concerned. Even where more than one TOC is involved the customer may be specific by stating their requirements in terms of:
• Destination station
• Ticket Type
• Train
• Class

In these circumstances, the Retailer only needs to seek further information when the customer wants to make a journey that cannot be made with that fare. An example is a customer requesting a discounted fare at a time of day when this fare is not valid.

Where the customer does not specify which fare they want and more than one is available that may meet their requirements, the Retailer must seek additional information to enable the correct fare to be sold. If more than one fare is suitable for their needs, the Retailer must explain the main features of the alternatives impartially (TSA clause 6-30(2)).

So in answer the the OPs original question, the ticket sold would be the one the customer specifically asked for or after questioning, the one the ticket office clerk throught most suited to the customer.

 

[dan_atki]

Interesting - only underground single inclusive fare from Brighton is a Brighton to Zone U1256 Londn :? It seems to be a problem with Southern and all fares in the area.

So does that mean an Anytime Brighton to U1256 Single (£24.30) is correct? Well the customer asked for that (well the closest to what they did ask for!) so that's what they'll be given I reckon.

Now something even worse with Brighton is the fares from there to London. I notice that fares to Victoria are actually to Victoria and not London Terminals, which strikes me as odd. Specifying London Terminals brings up a completely different set of fares...

Brighton - London Victoria Any Permitted, Anytime Day Single: £19.80 (SN)
Brighton - London Victoria Not Gatwick Exp, Super Off Peak Day Single: £13.40 (SN)
Brighton - London Bridge FCC Only, Off Peak Day Single: £16.90 (FCC)
Brighton - London Bridge Any Permitted, Super Off Peak Day Single: £13.40 (SN) (!!)
Brighton - London Terminals FCC Only, Off Peak Day Single: £16.90 (FCC)
Brighton - London Terminals Any Permitted, Anytime Day Single: £20.80 (SN) (!!)
Brighton - London Blackfriars Any Permitted, Off Peak Day Single: £16.90 (FCC)
Brighton - City Thameslink Any Permitted, Off Peak Day Single: £16.90 (FCC)

Charing Cross, Waterloo East, Waterloo, and Cannon Street all come up as London Terminals.

(where Anytime fares have been used it is due to a lack of Off Peak/Super Off Peak, stations and routes listed above are as printed on tickets).

So it is cheaper to split this journey at London Bridge or Victoria (on a Super Off Peak Day Single ticket) and get the U1 single from there (or from the LU ticket office)... Total cost £17.40 - saving £6.90. Only you have to ask specifically for this if you want it sold.

I suspect based on all the complexity of the London fares with tickets to individual stations (or paying more for the privilege of choosing as you go along) is the reason for the lack of U12 fare because there'd need to be numerous different routes created (FCC Only, Southern Only, Not Gatwick Exp, Any Permitted etc.). Still, I find it intriguing that there is so much choice here for fares to London :?

Certainly an odd situation!

 

[paul1609]

I dont think there has ever been been any off peak single to London Underground stations from Southern Stations going back to NSE days. I think that this is probably because a lot fewer Southern passengers (compared to those arriving at other terminals) continue their journeys on Underground especially off peak.
For the standard London terminals fare you can take your choice between Victoria, London Bridge, Waterloo mainline, waterloo East, Charing Cross, Blackfriars, City thameslink, St Pancras. West London Line stations are just a few pence more.
Obviously this has been complicated by the availability of super off peak tickets but these have been around in Southerns case since connex days under the pricebuster brand. Many people down here just keep a payg oyster card in their wallets for the odd tube journey or the tram out to Ikea at Croydon.

 

[dan_atki]

I dont think there has ever been been any off peak single to London Underground stations from Southern Stations going back to NSE days. I think that this is probably because a lot fewer Southern passengers (compared to those arriving at other terminals) continue their journeys on Underground especially off peak.

Why do less passengers in this region continue by Tube than say those on FCC north of London? Perhaps choice of terminals has something to do with it...

I just think it is odd that there is no zone 1&2 single but you have to pay for a zone 1-6 single. Despite being the same on inboundary fares there are not on outboundary (e.g. St Albans to U12 CDR is £15.00, and to U1256 is £17.00).

For the standard London terminals fare you can take your choice between Victoria, London Bridge, Waterloo mainline, waterloo East, Charing Cross, Blackfriars, City thameslink, St Pancras. West London Line stations are just a few pence more.

St Pancras is not a valid terminal from the south . Then again, we both know the problems encountered by Southern with these tickets (i.e. to St Pancras) being issued as to London Terminals...

Obviously this has been complicated by the availability of super off peak tickets but these have been around in Southerns case since connex days under the pricebuster brand. Many people down here just keep a payg oyster card in their wallets for the odd tube journey or the tram out to Ikea at Croydon.

I don't think the situation is any different north of London than south, myself. I'm sure a roughly equal proportion of FCC passengers have an Oyster card to Southern passengers.

What strikes me with Southern, however, is the bizarre huge range of options given for travelling to London as shown above. I have no understanding at all why a Brighton to London Terminals ticket is more expensive than one to any named terminal it is valid at - that's certainly not logical...

You don't get such anomolies with fares set by SWT down the SWML, despite being valid into the same lot of London Terminals. Then again they don't have 3* operators 'competing' for custom on parallel routes.

*Strictly speaking 2 with Southern and Gatwick Express now being one, but the way they price fares with 'Not Gatwick Exp' means they still want to run it as a separate company, albeit more 'luxurious' judging by the higher fares.

What is also odd here is the fact the Super Off Peak tickets from Brighton to Victoria are Not Gatwick Exp. Although I accept they don't run the times the ticket is valid at, I don't understand this routeing at all. Surely Gatwick Express services from Brighton to Victoria should be cheaper than the Southern, given they stop at more stations en route... (if we forget about the slow ex-Watford services which now run to Victoria ).

 

[paul1609]

Why do less passengers in this region continue by Tube than say those on FCC north of London? Perhaps choice of terminals has something to do with it....

I think thats it from a Sussex coast station practically every suburban station and all the terminals south of the Thames are available plus the Thameslink stations (ex Farringdon) are available for the cost of a cheap day return.

I just think it is odd that there is no zone 1&2 single but you have to pay for a zone 1-6 single. Despite being the same on inboundary fares there are not on outboundary (e.g. St Albans to U12 CDR is £15.00, and to U1256 is £17.00)..

I dont think thats its a single U1256 from Brighton I think its a one day travelcard its the same price!

St Pancras is not a valid terminal from the south . Then again, we both know the problems encountered by Southern with these tickets (i.e. to St Pancras) being issued as to London Terminals....

This is sorted now even from our Fast Ticket machine its now a ticket to St Pancras International route "not underground" but its the same price as a ticket to London terminals!

I don't think the situation is any different north of London than south, myself. I'm sure a roughly equal proportion of FCC passengers have an Oyster card to Southern passengers.

What strikes me with Southern, however, is the bizarre huge range of options given for travelling to London as shown above. I have no understanding at all why a Brighton to London Terminals ticket is more expensive than one to any named terminal it is valid at - that's certainly not logical...

You don't get such anomolies with fares set by SWT down the SWML, despite being valid into the same lot of London Terminals. Then again they don't have 3* operators 'competing' for custom on parallel routes.

*Strictly speaking 2 with Southern and Gatwick Express now being one, but the way they price fares with 'Not Gatwick Exp' means they still want to run it as a separate company, albeit more 'luxurious' judging by the higher fares.

What is also odd here is the fact the Super Off Peak tickets from Brighton to Victoria are Not Gatwick Exp. Although I accept they don't run the times the ticket is valid at, I don't understand this routeing at all. Surely Gatwick Express services from Brighton to Victoria should be cheaper than the Southern, given they stop at more stations en route... (if we forget about the slow ex-Watford services which now run to Victoria )..

The pricebuster was a very clever ticket by connex by making it to London Victoria practically excluded the Thameslink franchise from any revenue share under the ORCATs regulations. Southern have since refined this by offering London Victoria Seasons.
Pricebuster was also a zonal fares product see http://www.southernrailway.com/main.php?page_id=188
its the same price from Brighton to Victoria as from Southampton.
Its just been renamed Super Off Peak under fares simplification (and network card discounts have been allowed).

 

[dan_atki]

I think thats it from a Sussex coast station practically every suburban station and all the terminals south of the Thames are available plus the Thameslink stations (ex Farringdon) are available for the cost of a cheap day return.

Well yes, but so is every station in South London available as a CDR from Luton, say. I'm sure many of the people who require such a ticket are commuters (into the financial districts in the Square Mile and the Docklands mainly), shoppers (Oxford Street), and leisure travellers. None are unique to the north or the south of London and none are really served by mainline rail services.

I dont think thats its a single U1256 from Brighton I think its a one day travelcard its the same price!

Indeed they are the same price - proving the U1256 fare really is bad value. (U before zone numbers indicates 1 trip - i.e. single/return, R indicates unlimited - i.e. travelcard).

This is sorted now even from our Fast Ticket machine its now a ticket to St Pancras International route "not underground" but its the same price as a ticket to London terminals!

Ah good! It doesn't surprise me the fares are the same though. I'm sure that must 'mess up' ORCATS just like through travel from Waterloo to Charing Cross/London Bridge/Cannon Street on a London Terminals ticket.

The pricebuster was a very clever ticket by connex by making it to London Victoria practically excluded the Thameslink franchise from any revenue share under the ORCATs regulations. Southern have since refined this by offering London Victoria Seasons.
Pricebuster was also a zonal fares product see http://www.southernrailway.com/main.php?page_id=188
its the same price from Brighton to Victoria as from Southampton.
Its just been renamed Super Off Peak under fares simplification (and network card discounts have been allowed).

I'm not surprised such a ticket was introduced - services from Brighton to London around that time must have been rather competitive timewise and operators would have been keen to get the appropriate revenue. Interesting to see it has been moulded to fit current 'standards' rather than reviewed!

Still, I'm rather surprised a Brighton to London Terminals Anytime Single (Any Permitted) is £1 more expensive than a Brighton to London Victoria Anytime Single (Any Permitted). I can only guess this is Southern trying to get an equal amount of revenue from each flow under ORCATS (assuming they get less for London Terminals then Victoria, that is!).

 

[glynn80]

I dont think thats its a single U1256 from Brighton I think its a one day travelcard its the same price!

It is definately a single.

The letter "U" in front of the zones signifies a single. It is the letter "R" that signifies a Travelcard

This is sorted now even from our Fast Ticket machine its now a ticket to St Pancras International route "not underground" but its the same price as a ticket to London terminals!

The situation is a little weird in fact.

There are two flows from Brighton to London St Pancras International listed in the FRPP, rte "Not Underground" (set by FCC) and rte "Any Permitted" (set by SN). The rte Not Underground flow is priced identically to FCC Only flow from Brighton to London Terminals and the rte Any Permitted flow is priced identically to the rte Any Permitted flow from Brighton to London Terminals.

The issue arises in that the high priced rte Any Permitted ticket to London St Pancras has no extra validity than the rte Not Underground ticket. It does not permit travel via London Underground (it has no Maltese Cross) and the rte Not Underground flow is not restricted to FCC only in the same way it is to London Terminals.

So passengers travelling to a London Terminal that has a permitted route onto London St Pancras are always best off buying a London St Pancras ticket because it is the cheapest fare on the route (£17.00 for a CDR), gives them extra validity onward to St Pancras at no extra cost and does not restrict them to any particular TOC.

 

[csilke]

I just think it is odd that there is no zone 1&2 single but you have to pay for a zone 1-6 single. Despite being the same on inboundary fares there are not on outboundary (e.g. St Albans to U12 CDR is £15.00, and to U1256 is £17.00).

Southern outboundary fares are issued on the basis of the zones passed through by rail and underground not just on the underground. In NFM98 when explaining how inboundary fares are issued this way it also stated "Most Southern ’Out-boundary’ stations also issue through tickets on the same basis. For example, tickets with availability in Zone 1 will be issued to U1256. Passengers interchanging at Balham and not wishing to travel via Zone 1 should be issued with a ticket to U2356, or U3456 as appropriate.".

 

[John @ home]

Customer requests a Brighton to Oxford Circus (LU) single ticket to travel on a weekday after 12pm ... following the rules of impartial retailing correctly ... what ticket do you sell them ? ...

I think this splendid example shows the need for an official answer to a simple question:

If the price of a single ticket is more than the price of a return ticket for the same journey available for outward travel at the time it is proposed to use the single ticket, do the rules of impartial retailing require the retailer to explain this to the potential purchaser and to offer to sell the return ticket for a single journey?

I don't know the answer to that question, but I think one of us should ask the person who is responsible for enforcing the rules of impartial retailing.

I don't know who that person is. It may be the Secretary of State for Transport, or perhaps it is the Office of Rail Regulation. Does anyone here know who it is?

John

 

[glynn80]

I think this splendid example shows the need for an official answer to a simple question:

If the price of a single ticket is more than the price of a return ticket for the same journey available for outward travel at the time it is proposed to use the single ticket, do the rules of impartial retailing require the retailer to explain this to the potential purchaser and to offer to sell the return ticket for a single journey?

If the customer requests a specific single ticket type for the BTN to Oxford Circus journey, the booking office clerk, under the Impartiality section of the Retail Standards Guide, is obliged to sell the customer exactly that.

If the customer did not request a specific ticket and just wanted to get from Brighton to Oxford Circus and did not need to return, the booking office clerk is required to seek additional information from the customer to ascertain the most suitable ticket from the customer. There is no mandatory list of information that must be requested as circumstances will differ, but the following are examples of the things that are likely to be important to customers:

• Departure or arrival time required
• Journey time
• Price
• Change of Train – both the number of changes and ease of interchange
• Flexibility of return – can they be tied to a specific return train
• Inter-availability – being able to use other TOCs’ services
• Other special needs

Once in possession of the addition information the booking office clerk is then to locate the fares suitable for the customer and explains each of their benefits in turn, the customer chooses and the ticket is sold. There is unfortunately no explicit requirement to sell the cheapest fare within the TSA or the RSG, only the most suitable. Whether it could be argued that the cheapest was the most suitable is obviously dependent on the customer in question, but it would have to be proved that the booking office clerk consciously knew that the return was cheaper than the single (this is not obvious via common sense) and that this was company policy (rather than individual error), for any kind of action to be brought against a TOC.

I don't know who that person is. It may be the Secretary of State for Transport, or perhaps it is the Office of Rail Regulation. Does anyone here know who it is?

The impartiality requirements are TSA conditions therefore it is the SST for Transport who is responsible.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Customer requests a Brighton to Oxford Circus (LU) single ticket to travel on a weekday after 12pm ... following the rules of impartial retailing correctly ... what ticket do you sell them ? ...

Assuming 'no preferences', the Brighton to R1256 'rte FCC only' Off-Peak Travelcard (£20.80) must be offered. This is the cheapest through ticket valid for the entire journey.

However it must be pointed out before sale that travel as far as East Croydon must be on FCC trains and no others. If the passenger states that they do not wish to travel on FCC, are unsure about which service they will use or would rather go direct to London Victoria, the Any Permitted single to zone U1256 or the Any Permitted R1256 travelcard should be offered.

 

[craigy68]

... thanks for all your responses

 

[caughtonatrain]

There was an interesting segment on this morning's Today programme on R4 (at about 0645) on impartial retailing. A researcher from Which? was giving a spokesperson from ATOC a bit of a hard time. (From my perspective it was Which? 1 - 0 ATOC.)

The background is that Which? have apparently just produced a report claiming that station retailers offer the lowest fares less than 50% of the time by failing to point out services and tickets offered slower and/or less frequest train companies.

 

[philjo]

I heard that radio interview. the ATOC person didn't sound very convincing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8210465.stm

I have also read the article in Which? - there is a summary version on their website:
http://www.which.co.uk/advice/cheap-train-tickets/cheap-train-ticket-investigation/index.jsp

 

[Failed Unit]

It is a hard one, some of the examples.

A lot of the time they have quoted the more expensive fare on a journey where multiple operators run.

ie London - Exeter the person quoting the fare assumed travel on FGW
London - Crewe Virgin was assumed
London - Birmingham Virgin was assumed.

I agree in most cases people will want the quickest route, but in the case of Birmingham the other operators are not that much lower for the money you will save!

On the East Coast where open access operators exist again they have assumed people want to travel by NXEC. But even on the internet when you can see all fares on offer you would be pretty miffed to buy a GC only ticket and not know that you could be waiting a long time between services. I guess explaining that with a queue of people behind may not go down too well.

One example that springs to mind on the survey. Customer asks for a ticket from Great Yarmouth - London to arrive before 10am. The get sold an £85 anytime return. They complain that if you arrive at 10:24 you would only pay £43. True but you have been sold what you have asked for!

Saying that the survey overall is fairly grim reading, the questions were all on routes where it is easy to be caught out. But they do it every year so ATOC must be expecting it. Barry Doe has written the questions in the past, not sure if he did this year. I suppose the conclusion it is all too complicated, look at the option avialable for Brighton - London U1 on another thread!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Surveys are always presented in a way that serves the point, in my opinion they rarely represent the truth and are often misleading.

 

[krus_aragon]

Surveys are always presented in a way that serves the point, in my opinion they rarely represent the truth and are often misleading.

We need some impartial surveying first, then!

 

[craigy68]

... it would be interesting to know EXACTLY what questions 'Which' asked ... and how the questions were worded ... as this affects the information that will be supplied ... it really grates me when I read one sided storys like this

 

[hairyhandedfool]

We need some impartial surveying first, then!

Exactly, but IMO it can never happen, it is the nature of the beast. Every survey is to prove a point, therefore the results will be biased that way.