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Impact on Universities

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MikeWM

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I understand your frustration, and it's always seemed a nonsense to me that the majority of courses outside of STEM, or even a lot of the theory-heavy courses within STEM, cost anything like 9k per seat to run.

I agree. I did a back-of-envelope calculation for a Cambridge maths degree a few years back, and even being *very* generous with my estimates of what things cost, I had a lot of trouble getting to more than about 3k a year per undergrad.

The biggest factor for me would be (if I wasn't safely 15 years out of uni) the lack of access to other students to discuss the course with and build a social life. I'm not 100% sure in that I would feel like it was worth going next year even if the course was free, and ultimately I'd probably be making the decision based more on my chances of getting a job or doing anything else worthwhile in the next year, rather than based on some value-for-money analysis on fees which you may well end up never repaying anyway.

Again (20-odd years out of uni), I entirely agree.
 
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J-2739

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I'm just glad that I don't start uni till 2021. By then, this COVID-storm and its effects on the way lectures are carried out will have (hopefully) disappeared.

Going to university is the full experience, not just stuck in student accommodation.
 

Tetchytyke

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I understand your frustration, and it's always seemed a nonsense to me that the majority of courses outside of STEM, or even a lot of the theory-heavy courses within STEM, cost anything like 9k per seat to run.

Humanities courses don't cost as much as £9250 a year to run, but equally STEM courses cost a hell of a lot more than £9250 per year. £9250 bears no relation to the cost of delivering the tuition for a specific course.

Prestigious research-heavy universities charge £9250 because they can. Other universities, whose main income stream is tuition fees, charge it because they have to. The government assumed- wrongly- that market forces would apply and universities would try to undercut each other. Nope. The ones who would compete on price can't afford to, and the ones who can afford to compete on price won't cheapen their product by doing so.

But maybe it's time for a funding overhaul anyway. This was discussed in a private conversation I had with a Labour MP the other week - he wants us to move to more of a "Graduate Tax" rather than immediately putting all students in debt.

The current funding regime IS a graduate tax. Your repayments are based on what you earn, not what you owe. The variable interest rates serve to keep people locked into repayments for as long as possible, ideally for the full 30 years before the debts are waived.

The reason why it is a loan and not a tax is because it's easier to enforce loans against people living overseas. I live in a tax haven and the UK government can't tax me, but they can insist that I repay my student loan. And 16 years after I graduated, I'm still paying it (and I don't get it written off at 30 years!).

if we're paying full price, despite the global situation I think we're entitled to get a proper lecture, not one relevant to last year's students.

The academics I worked with recycle their lectures year after year anyway. And their exam questions...

I did a back-of-envelope calculation for a Cambridge maths degree a few years back, and even being *very* generous with my estimates of what things cost, I had a lot of trouble getting to more than about 3k a year per undergrad.

That's because you're factoring in the academic's time and pretty much nothing else. Universities are expensive things to run.
 

AdamWW

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The academics I worked with recycle their lectures year after year anyway. And their exam questions...

This seems to vary, even within the same faculty in a university - e.g. one department - no recycling of questions, lecturers can take a given course for a maximum of 3 years before moving on to something else, another - lecturer can stay on the course till they drop, building up a bank of exam questions to be recycled ad infinitum (on one memorable occasion, complete with the same error where the easy "Show such-and-such" for a few marks at the start to get you going on the question asked you to show something that wasn't in fact correct....)
 

MikeWM

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That's because you're factoring in the academic's time and pretty much nothing else. Universities are expensive things to run.

How do you know what I factored in when I didn't make any mention of how I made the calculation?!
 

Kingspanner

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I understand your frustration, and it's always seemed a nonsense to me that the majority of courses outside of STEM, or even a lot of the theory-heavy courses within STEM, cost anything like 9k per seat to run.
Thank goodness for that! I'll tell the Finance Director that someone unqualified and ignorant of the facts says that we don't need £9250 per student to run courses, provide IT and Library services, heat light clean and maintain buildings, supply consumables and capital equipment, deliver counselling and other support for students, and the dozens of other functions we have. The FD will be so relieved....
 

Huntergreed

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Thank goodness for that! I'll tell the Finance Director that someone unqualified and ignorant of the facts says that we don't need £9250 per student to run courses, provide IT and Library services, heat light clean and maintain buildings, supply consumables and capital equipment, deliver counselling and other support for students, and the dozens of other functions we have. The FD will be so relieved....
In my case - library and IT is deemed unsafe in term 1, building access will be strictly prohibited to anyone who has a proper reason to be there (basically nobody in term 1 bar the research department) and most equipment is out of use (I go to a music school, and almost all instruments and practice rooms are going to be locked and not allowed for student use in term one), so I don't think it's justified at my uni.
 

trebor79

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[students staying in "protective bubbles"]
Yet we know our young are the least susceptible to serious implications as a result of the virus. A big part of going to uni as well as for the education is to socialise with others of the same age. If this "protective bubble" nonsense really becomes a reality then in my view there will really be no point in going to university. The young will therefore decide just to go straight into employment - if there are any jobs left to apply for that is.
It really is absurd, and completely unworkable in many cases. Take engineering, for example. I'm sure someone in Whitehall thinks it's simple to keep mechanical, electrical, civil etc engineers apart. But it's not. Yes, there are specialised lectures, tutorials and labs for each. But there are plenty of shared lectures. I well remember 500 seat lecture theatres filled to capacity for engineering mathematics, analogue electronics and various other modules that all engineers took.
And what about clubs and societies? How does that work? It doesn't.
Aude from anything else, how miserable. Is have gone mad if it's been forced to spend *all* my time with a few course mates. I'm sure it's no coincidence all the club's and societies I actually got involved with do not have anybody else from my course on them.
And how you're going to stop a load of young adults from boozing and shagging is beyond me!
 

HSTEd

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UCU at Manchester is not happy because it looks like there are going to be huge numbers of compulsory redundancies, and lots of de-facto redundancies because noone on a fixed term contract will have it renewed.
 

_toommm_

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As someone who is studying music education and recognises the real 'importance' of the subjects often looked at as 'less important', I couldn't agree more with every word you said.

I'm studying Performing Arts so I'm sure you'd agree it's a course which benefits from being there in person; and the benefit of our respective subjects as a whole, even if they're not perceived as traditionally 'academic'.
 

_toommm_

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I've had the news today for my uni. A blend of face-to-face and online study; our time is split up into three 'terms' of ten weeks, as opposed to the traditional two semester setup; four hours contact time per week per module (two modules per 'term). It works out at less physical time in university, but apparently we will be taught to the same level and the same modules.

I'm very skeptical, but only time will tell I guess...
 

Tetchytyke

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How do you know what I factored in when I didn't make any mention of how I made the calculation?!

If you could only add up to £3k a year then you are clearly, blatantly, and obviously not including most things that a University does!

I don't think it's justified at my uni.

Universities still have all the same outgoings, even during Covid disruption. The staff are still there, the buildings still need to be maintained, the expensive equipment still need to be looked after. And that's the trouble.

I really do get the frustration, but the cost of temporarily delivering online study is no less, and (most) students are still receiving tuition. So who funds any refund of tuition fees?

It's also indicative of a wider issue in Higher Education,with the government reducing education to a financial transaction.
 
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RomeoCharlie71

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University students risk acting as "amplifiers" for spreading coronavirus around the country, government scientific advisers have warned.

Student migration at the beginning and end of term warrants "more attention" as universities could "act as amplifiers" for COVID-19, the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE) said in a new document published on Friday.

The report, looking into the risks of reopening schools, colleges and universities in September, said students moving back home at the end of term are more of a concern than students returning or starting at the beginning of term.
 

AdamWW

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Which suggests and increased level of sophistication in SAGE advice, because as I recall the Imperial paper that suggested that large gatherings were not a problem didn't seem to take any account of the difference between people from a single area collecting together and people coming from all over the UK (or indeed beyond) to an event.
 

BJames

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I'm gonna pop this here even though it is a crossover with the face coverings discussion.

I have found a policy on my University's website which appears to have been pushed through yesterday, stating that:

In consultation with the Covid-19 Expert Advisory Group the University has made the decision to mandate the wearing of a face covering in all University buildings. This includes all circulation spaces and during lectures and seminars. This will include laboratory and workshop classes and practical classes.

I cannot send a link to the article as it's on our intranet and I don't want to put it out here but if you are interested (especially other university students) please send me a message and I'll happily share it and discuss my views.

But broadly speaking - I'm incredibly disappointed. I find it distracting and the fact that we're going to be using other, larger rooms for social distancing tells me that the whole concept has been misunderstood greatly. Face masks are an additional mitigation if you cannot keep more than 2 metres apart. To have to wear them in situations where it is almost certain you will be more than 2 metres apart is wholly unnecessary. If they want us to wear them as we're entering/leaving the lecture theatre and moving through the buildings I can see the benefit, in order to prevent the hugely unnecessary one-way system and a slow filtering of students, but actually in seminars when you know you can keep apart is frustrating. The good thing is that I have very few contact hours anyway so as frustrating as this is, it doesn't affect me as much as it will for those in STEM subjects.

The exemption is "in all environments where you are alone, such as in single occupancy office, or a single, dedicated desk or workstation that is clearly separated by social distancing, you do not need to wear a face covering". Hopefully this means that the library will be arranged in a way so that I can work in there without a face covering. Otherwise I shall be spending all of my time working from home.

Anyone else heard any comms from their university on their plans regarding this?
 

BJames

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[students staying in "protective bubbles"]

It really is absurd, and completely unworkable in many cases. Take engineering, for example. I'm sure someone in Whitehall thinks it's simple to keep mechanical, electrical, civil etc engineers apart. But it's not. Yes, there are specialised lectures, tutorials and labs for each. But there are plenty of shared lectures. I well remember 500 seat lecture theatres filled to capacity for engineering mathematics, analogue electronics and various other modules that all engineers took.
And what about clubs and societies? How does that work? It doesn't.
Aude from anything else, how miserable. Is have gone mad if it's been forced to spend *all* my time with a few course mates. I'm sure it's no coincidence all the club's and societies I actually got involved with do not have anybody else from my course on them.
And how you're going to stop a load of young adults from boozing and shagging is beyond me!
Honestly. That whole plan is ludicrous. If they think that's going to work then I wish them luck spending days and weeks trying to figure it out. As you say it is not possible. There are far too many subjects, too many students and not enough space - and that goes for most universities. Not to mention the concept of actually having friends outside your subject. And even then, universities will be surprised that there are less students starting in September, thinking "but we've made it as safe as possible??"

University students who are living with other university students are not at risk. Professors teaching the students are at least 5-7 metres away from the closest student at my university, based on their lectern on stage. Staff serving food would be behind a screen, the only difference would be that staff would probably be unable to circulate in practicals and assist. But a lot of the time postgrad students are used for helping out in seminars and labs and they are at less risk anyway. And as I said people aren't returning to their family homes so their families/grandparents etc are not at risk so this argument can't be used. The only difference to this is at Christmas as the SAGE paper mentions above but there is really not much that can be done about that other than telling students they can't go back to their family homes - which they will just ignore.
 

PTR 444

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My university has announced that they are reopening their library to students this week, but anyone wishing to use a desk or computer will have to book at least 24 hours in advance and they will be the only person allowed to use it on the day. Also, the only way to obtain books will be via a click and collect system as shelves will be off limits, while any returns will be put into quarantine for 2 weeks before anyone else can borrow them. I think this is a sensible move as it still allows most of the library's vital functions to be usable, while having the potential added benefit of being a quieter, more pleasant place to study. The only downside is that opening hours will be limited to 8am-7pm on weekdays, but I understand that the time in the evening is needed for deep cleaning, and hopefully they can review this if demand exceeds capacity.

Still no word on what's happening with Freshers Fayre and societies though :frown:
 

geoffk

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[students staying in "protective bubbles"]

It really is absurd, and completely unworkable in many cases. Take engineering, for example. I'm sure someone in Whitehall thinks it's simple to keep mechanical, electrical, civil etc engineers apart. But it's not. Yes, there are specialised lectures, tutorials and labs for each. But there are plenty of shared lectures. I well remember 500 seat lecture theatres filled to capacity for engineering mathematics, analogue electronics and various other modules that all engineers took.
And what about clubs and societies? How does that work? It doesn't.
Aude from anything else, how miserable. Is have gone mad if it's been forced to spend *all* my time with a few course mates. I'm sure it's no coincidence all the club's and societies I actually got involved with do not have anybody else from my course on them.
And how you're going to stop a load of young adults from boozing and shagging is beyond me!
52 years since I left university but surely many new students will try to take a year out (if they can get a job) and reapply for September 2021. I don't know if this is possible for those in the middle of a course. Going to university is about much more than studying, as several of you much younger than me have pointed out!
 

trebor79

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That all sounds completely absurd to me.
Wiping down the desk would take seconds and allow them to be reused.
Quarantining books for 2 weeks? What that actual f is that about? So a hard surface desk (which virus survives for longer on) gets an overnight quarantine, but books need 2 weeks? 3 days is thought to be the maximum for survival on paper and cardboard. Has anyone even contracted covid from a book?
Shelves out of bounds? Useless. You need to flick through a book and see if it's suitable for your purposes.
 

takno

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That all sounds completely absurd to me.
Wiping down the desk would take seconds and allow them to be reused.
Quarantining books for 2 weeks? What that actual f is that about? So a hard surface desk (which virus survives for longer on) gets an overnight quarantine, but books need 2 weeks? 3 days is thought to be the maximum for survival on paper and cardboard. Has anyone even contracted covid from a book?
Shelves out of bounds? Useless. You need to flick through a book and see if it's suitable for your purposes.
To be fair that might be the average time books were sitting about on trolleys waiting to be re-shelved last year anyway. If I had Covid as a handy scapegoat for my long term issues I reckon I'd jump at the chance.
 

158756

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To be fair that might be the average time books were sitting about on trolleys waiting to be re-shelved last year anyway. If I had Covid as a handy scapegoat for my long term issues I reckon I'd jump at the chance.

When I was at uni one assignment required everyone on the course to take out a particular book (of which there were only two copies) within two weeks.
 

takno

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When I was at uni one assignment required everyone on the course to take out a particular book (of which there were only two copies) within two weeks.
It's a technical challenge, but I'd question the academic rigour tbh
 

158756

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It's a technical challenge, but I'd question the academic rigour tbh

Ha. I think you needed to read it to even be able to start the work as well (so tough for the people who got it last). The lecturer I strongly suspect was just recycling someone else's course and hadn't noticed (or even read) the problem.
 

BJames

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That all sounds completely absurd to me.
Wiping down the desk would take seconds and allow them to be reused.
Quarantining books for 2 weeks? What that actual f is that about? So a hard surface desk (which virus survives for longer on) gets an overnight quarantine, but books need 2 weeks? 3 days is thought to be the maximum for survival on paper and cardboard. Has anyone even contracted covid from a book?
Shelves out of bounds? Useless. You need to flick through a book and see if it's suitable for your purposes.
Completely agree. This is totally unnecessary and illogical. Especially the "only one use per day" for the desk - if it's that hard (which it isn't, my uni has a lot of staff), why not offer three sessions throughout the day, morning/early afternoon/late afternoon.

On the positive side it's good to hear the library is a bit more open, ours is click and collect only at the moment. Although I definitely think capacity is reduced here beyond what is necessary.
 

Scotrail12

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My uni are starting off fully online and throughout the semester, will transition into blended learning. FFS - 0 deaths in like a month now, no affect to people of my age yet the quality of education being compromised, not to mention that it will be exceptionally lonely not being able to be on campus and seeing anyone.

I just want to bang my head against the wall when they say rubbish like "we're trying to create a safe environment" - THE VIRUS DOES NOT AFFECT HEALTHY YOUNG PEOPLE. GET US BACK.
 

Kingspanner

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I just want to bang my head against the wall when they say rubbish like "we're trying to create a safe environment" - THE VIRUS DOES NOT AFFECT HEALTHY YOUNG PEOPLE. GET US BACK.

What about unhealthy young people? Those who might be obese or have breathing problems or for that matter mental health issues? What about those with BAME origins? What about the teaching, cleaning, catering and security staff, and for that matter the many many students who are not young? What about the situation at Notre Dame or UNC Chapel Hill in the States?
Universities, like any other public body, have to consider the collective whole.
It's not about you. I'm sorry, to help you hear me, IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU.
 
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nedchester

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What about unhealthy young people? Those who might be obese or have breathing problems or for that matter mental health issues? What about those with BAME origins? What about the teaching, cleaning, catering and security staff, and for that matter the many many students who are not young? What about the situation at Notre Dame or UNC Chapel Hill in the States?
Universities, like any other public body, have to consider the collective whole.
It's not about you. I'm sorry, to help you hear me, IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU.

How about shielding those who are most at risk then and letting people carry on as normal? Not just universities but we just cannot carry on like this.
 
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Domh245

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What about unhealthy young people? Those who might be obese or have breathing problems ... What about those with BAME origins?

Even for them, the risk is vanishingly small.

or for that matter mental health issues?

A person's mental health has no bearing on how they're impacted by COV-SARS 2, unless I've missed something? Of course the flip side is that the measures put in place in response to COV-SARS 2 are having quite a large impact on people's mental health!

What about the teaching, cleaning, catering and security staff, and for that matter the many many students who are not young?

Again, unless the university is staffed by pensioners the risk is no greater than going about your business as normal. Sure there will be some academics that are vulnerable, and there's no point forcing them back, but disrupting the education of thousands of students for the sake of protecting tens of vulnerable employees (especially when there are far better compromises than closing down entire campuses) does not strike me as a particularly sensible decision

What about the situation at Notre Dame or UNC Chapel Hill in the States?

What situation is that? Are there large numbers of students and staff dying of COVID19 at those institutions?
 

takno

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What about unhealthy young people? Those who might be obese or have breathing problems or for that matter mental health issues? What about those with BAME origins? What about the teaching, cleaning, catering and security staff, and for that matter the many many students who are not young? What about the situation at Notre Dame or UNC Chapel Hill in the States?
Universities, like any other public body, have to consider the collective whole.
It's not about you. I'm sorry, to help you hear me, IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU.
Unclear what you want us to conclude about Notre Dame - they've had a bit of an outbreak with no obvious massive ill-effects, and in response have taken action, rather than panicking ahead of time and taking actions that they didn't need to. Most of the groups you mention are at a mildly elevated risk at worst. Making everybody shield to protect the small number of people who might be at geniune risk isn't a viable isn't a sane course of action. Asking people to miss out on a hugely valuable part of their lives for very little reason and then screaming "it's not all about you" at them doesn't strike me as likely to convince them tbh.
 
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