Imminent Letter....

[EMTtraveller]

Hello,

Long time reader, first time poster here. I was hoping for you thoughts on my case:

This morning, I was travelling EMT from Sileby to Kettering. I had a valid ticket from Sileby to Loughborough, where I would catch a connection to Kettering. I only had a few minutes between my trains, so I decided to purchase from the guard between Loughborough and Kettering. Alas, no guard or attendant.

I arrive at Kettering to find a group of ticket collectors between the platform and ticket office. I approach the fare collector and ask to purchase my ticket. No dice...

After spending 20 minutes calmly discussing it and being told I should have bought a ticket all the way through from Silbey, she take all of my details, checks my address and says that a letter will be arriving in the post as she believes I was trying to avoid paying for a ticket.

She asked would the ticket have gone unpaid, I replied 'no, you stopped me before the entrance to the ticket office'. I offered to pay there and even pay a penalty fare. Again no.

So, what will the letter contain? Do they have grounds to prosecute do you think? How should I respond?

I appreciate your time reading this and any comments that may be forthcoming.

 

[bb21]

Who did you buy your ticket to Loughborough from? Why did you not buy the ticket to Kettering at the same time?

I am perplexed by your actions because if you were a long-time lurker on the forum you would have been fully aware that EMT operate a Penalty Fares scheme and have a "take no prisoners" attitude towards it.

 

[Clip]

Sileby has nothing whatsoever in the way of purchasing a ticket according to NRE but EMT say its a Penalty fare station which makes no sense whatsoever!!

Scrap that - how long was your connection at Loughborough and also as BB21 said how did you get your ticket from Sileby from

 

[455driver]

What you have typed leaves more questions than answers!
Why did you only have a ticket for half of your intended journey?
Why didnt you buy the excess before starting out?
Why didnt you go and find the guard on the train knowing you needed the excess and EMTs policies?
What exactly would you have done at Kettering on arrival, be honest!

 

[RPI]

Sileby has a PERTIS machine I believe

 

[bengolding]

I assume you must have got either the 0638 or 0741 from Sileby to Loughborough, where there is only a 4 & 5 minute wait before the EMT to Kettering across the platform - nowhere near enough time to get to the ticket office on the other side of the ticket barriers. The conductor on the Ivanhoe services is normally always at the back. Did you approach them to purchase your second ticket (I assume an excess wasn't possible given the OP was doubling back Sileby-Loughborough-Leicester)?

 

[Jonfun]

I don't for a second suggest the OP had malicious intentions but I'm sure even he can see why a member of rail staff would find his journey suspicious.

Passenger arrives at a station - normally unbarriered - with a revenue block with no ticket, claims to have travelled in on a train from a staffed, barriered station. Then they explain that they actually started a ticket at an unstaffed station (and one which, last time I looked, didn't have a TVM) yet have somehow purchased a ticket from there to their interchange station, which is in the complete wrong direction to their intended journey, and has no time benefit for most, if any, of the day either. Despite clear signs explaining that they are in a Penalty Fare area, the passenger makes no effort to either pay at their interchange station, or if time there was a problem, on the train en route.

If there was an innocent explanation then the OP will have the opportunity to give the full story when the letter arrives, it's just unfortunate that their actions seem to tally pretty well with someone who buys a short ticket to get through the barriers in the hope that they won't be challenged en route.

 

[Abpj17]

Doesn't add up. Not even if Sileby to Loughborough is a season ticket.

 

[RJ]

Sileby - Loughborough - Kettering is a valid route on one ticket, though locals can be forgiven for not being aware of that. Sileby passes the fares check for Loughborough and it isn't actually a double back if changing onto a mainline service, if at least by virtue of the TOPS reporting system. There might be no time advantage, but if you've missed a train, it might be a more attractive option to do this than wait in the elements for up to an hour for the next one to Leicester.

It may surprise some on the forum to find that not everybody is aware it's possible to buy a through ticket to their destination. Many genuinely believe that a separate ticket has to be purchased for each leg of a journey. Especially if it involves what might be considered as a double back.

There is a Permit To Travel (PTT) machine on the southbound platform at Sileby, though whether it is in working order on any given day is hit and miss. Sometimes it won't even take a 5p piece. It's a bit of a nuisance to use if going towards Loughborough - the friendly conductors on board usually come through the train - but I don't know if that's always the case during the morning peak.

Stops are close together on both services - if these were busy rush hour services, it is perfectly conceivable that the guards were preoccupied with other duties and it may not have been practical to find them.

EMTtraveller, it would help if you could elucidate on;

- How you bought the ticket you held from Sileby to Loughborough

- What ticket(s) you intended to buy for your journey.

- Whether or not you approached the conductor on the train to Loughborough, or the Train Manager on the train from there to buy a ticket.

 

[EMTtraveller]

OP here.

Thank you for your responses.

I purchased my Sileby - Loughborough train from the guard with the intention of buying the 2nd leg of my journey once aboard my 2nd train. I only moved to Sileby a week ago and am still getting my head around being a rail commuter.

I can see how it reads, which is why I was totally cooperative with the Revenue Inspector. My intentions, however illogical in hindsight were not illegal.

I did not see a guard or inspector on the 2nd leg of my journey, and with the quick connection at Loughborough, the first opportunity to buy a ticket was upon arrival. 20m past where the block was set up. Why would they not set the block up at the exit to the station, rather than the platform?

Yes, I did intend to buy a ticket at Kettering.

So, illogical yes, but not illegal surely? Do you believe an offer to pay the fare (as I wanted to do at the time) plus admin fees would be sufficient to settle this matter?

 

[Crossover]

I'm not quite sure of why you are splitting ticket at Loughborough as it seems to work out more costly to do so.

Also, given you bought your first ticket from the guard on the train, why did you not purchase the second one at the same time (I have done it before when splitting tickets and travelling from an unstaffed station)

Without railcards and assuming anytime (in this case travelling outbound pre 9am)
Sileby to Loughborough - £3.40 SDR
Loughborough to Kettering - £41.80 SOR

Sileby to Kettering - £41.80 SOR

The Off-Peak tickets are somewhat significantly less.

I'm afraid something still doesn't add up with the story here

 

[Greenback]

It's possible the OP didn't know that they could buy a through ticket. See the post by RJ.

Having said that, though, they will be judged by their actions rather than what they were thinking, so whatever EMTtraveller says that they were going to do, is not really relevant under the law. The fact is that whether through ignorance or not, they passed up an opportunity to purchase a ticket on board the first train.

 

[EMTtraveller]

Think of it as two independent journeys, as I did that morning. Like I said, illogical in hindsight.

My first journey, silbey to loughborough - valid ticket.

Now, second leg. The first opportunity to buy my ticket was upon arrival in Kettering. Revenue collection block set up before ticket office, denying me the opportunity to purchase a ticket.

Why wouldn't the block be at the exit to the station? It makes no sense. Catching 'fare dodgers' before they've been given every available opportunity to purchase a ticket.

Back to my original question, would an offer to pay the fare as originally requested plus any PF + admin costs likely be accepted? First time 'offence'.

 

[Greenback]

As long as you haven't had any previous difficulties with the company I see no reason why they wouldn't be amenable to an out of court settlement. They are not obliged to offer pr accept one, however.

 

[bb21]

Now, second leg. The first opportunity to buy my ticket was upon arrival in Kettering.

No.

If you were at all times aware of the requirement to travel to Kettering, then your first opportunity to pay was at the same time as when you bought your first ticket. I am still puzzled why you didn't simply buy both your tickets from the first guard, even if it is so that you didn't have to queue up again, given you were fully aware that you had a short connection. I will accept that you made an irrational decision, and an expensive one it is likely to be.

Even if you see it as two separate journeys, the first opportunity to pay would still not have been Kettering. Assuming that Loughborough ticket office was open, that would have been your first opportunity, and you chose to ignore it.

They may accept an offer of the fare plus an admin fee, but that is discretionary. I would also expect that they would want a sum in excess of the Penalty Fare that would have been applicable (£52.80) should they offer you this opportunity.

This case has intentional fare evasion written all over it the more I look at it, so if it were not how you intended it to come across you were very unfortunate. I would not be surprised if they took this case all the way to court.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only genuine seeming reason I could think of for this would be a first-time rail user expecting the situation to be the same as bus travel, i.e. no through ticketing and a separate fare per vehicle.

To the OP: was it your first ever train journey involving a change of train?

Neil

 

[maniacmartin]

Think of it as two independent journeys, as I did that morning. Like I said, illogical in hindsight.

If they are two independent journeys, then you cannot say you didn't have enough time to buy a ticket due to a short interchange. You would have had to buy the ticket in Loughborough.

 

[Greenback]

I read the OP's comment as being an answer to my own thoughts as to whether they were aware that they could buy a through ticket, given RJ's musings on the local situation.

I also think that the OP now realises that it isn't two separate journeys at all, but in case I'm wrong, please don't think of it as such in the future! Even if you have separate tickets it's one journey you are making, and there's no reason at all why you can't buy both tickets at the same time.

 

[Bungle]

Why wouldn't the block be at the exit to the station? It makes no sense. Catching 'fare dodgers' before they've been given every available opportunity to purchase a ticket.

It makes complete sense. Where would be the deterrent? If every would-be fare-dodger had access to the ticket office before reaching a revenue block, they would just buy a ticket on the days they see there is a block on and get off scot-free on every other occasion. They would never catch anyone, and constant mass fare evasion would go unhindered and unpunished. Ignorance is not a defence.

You MUST be able to see how it looks, especially from the point of view of the revenue staff.

 

[6Gman]

One might also expect the conversation with the guard on the first train to be along the lines of:

"I'm going to Loughborough on this, but then I'm going on to Kettering. Do I need separate tickets or can you issue me with one through to Kettering?"

 

[Greenback]

I'm confident the OP can see how it looks now, but probably never had cause to think about it before.

Of course, there will be the alternative view that may well be held by the TOC - the OP was happy to pay the small fare to Loughborough but thought they'd chance it from there and would be able to talk their way out of it in the unlikely event they got stopped.

I am making no judgement myself, just pointing out the possibilities for any lurkers that may be reading the thread.

 

[Flamingo]

Of course, there will be the alternative view that may well be held by the TOC - the OP was happy to pay the small fare to Loughborough but thought they'd chance it from there and would be able to talk their way out of it in the unlikely event they got stopped.

If it came before a magistrate, I'm pretty sure that is the view they would take of it.

I'll nail my colours to the mast and say it's my reading of it!

I'm sure we had a similar thread last year, somebody traveling from Pontypridd to Neath who only purchased a ticket to Cardiff.

Edited to add: Found the link. http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=71980&page=3
The OP never came back to give an outcome in that thread, though...

 

[RJ]

Based on what I've read, I'd give the OP the benefit of the doubt.

EMTtraveller, I merely encourage you to write to EMT once they contact you, explaining your understanding and your side of the matter. Here's hoping for a just outcome.

 

[Clip]

Based on what I've read, I'd give the OP the benefit of the doubt.

EMTtraveller, I merely encourage you to write to EMT once they contact you, explaining your understanding and your side of the matter. Here's hoping for a just outcome.

I think you are being to generous here RJ for one simple reason

Hello,

Long time reader, first time poster here. I was hoping for you thoughts on my case:

Quite simply anyone who even passes a casual look at this forum would certainly know that you CAN buy through tickets and that the responsibility lays with the passenger to make sure they have the ticket(s) for the journey they commence.

I simply cannot believe that the OP would not know this after being such a long time lurker.

 

[Greenback]

I agree with RJ. We simply don't know what the OP has read here. It's possible that they have never perused this particular forum at all, their interest in railway matters may lie elsewhere.

It's not clear cut by any means, but I too am prepared to give the OP the benefit of the doubt until I see stronger evidence.

 

[bunnahabhain]

There is a Permit To Travel (PTT) machine on the southbound platform at Sileby, though whether it is in working order on any given day is hit and miss. Sometimes it won't even take a 5p piece. It's a bit of a nuisance to use if going towards Loughborough - the friendly conductors on board usually come through the train - but I don't know if that's always the case during the morning peak.

The PTT machine I believe is no longer present, so there is no opportunity prior to boarding the train available from Sileby. Morning peak *should* be doable for all passengers to purchase a ticket for travel, the 0741, 0839, 0939, 1039 and 1139 are all booked for an Assistant Ticket Examiner (ATE) in addition to a guard, there are other services occasionally covered by ATEs.

Doubling back on the Ivanhoe is generally accepted on longer distance routes with the exception of Route: Not via Leicester tickets which obviously are only valid if changing onto the Ivanhoe north of Leicester.

 

[LowLevel]

Sileby is no longer part of the penalty fare scheme due to persistant vandalism of the permit machine - I believe it was set on fire by vandals and officially withdrawn.

 

[Haywain]

This is of extremely limited relevance given that the OP succeeded in buying a ticket for a journey that commenced at Sileby. This proves that before joining another train at Loughborough there had been an "opportunity to buy" and that the ticketless travel had commenced at a Penalty Fare station. The OP may have been unaware of the availability of a through ticket, but does not appear to have been lacking the opportunity to buy one.

 

[EMTtraveller]

OP here.

Quick update for you all. I recieved my letter this morning, £92.40 is the cost. That's including £70 operational and admin fees plus ticket difference. EMT didn't ask me to explain or offer my version of events, just offered the settlement.

For all of you that are so hasty to criticise and criminalise people who come to the forum for advice and help in times of distress, you only increase the anxiety levels. For those with a more positive opinion of the human nature, I thank you.

 

[Greenback]

Thanks for coming back with the update, it's always appreciated.

The discussions on here are just that, discussions.Although it may seem that you have been criticised and criminalised, there is no way of telling how a company is going to proceed. I feel it's important to tell people the reality of a situation rather than merely offer sympathy, although I did feel a lot of sympathy for you in this instance, and I'm glad that you were offered a settlement straight away.