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Imagine if HS2 was cancelled?

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toby_farman

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If HS2 where cancelled then I think most of the building work should continue.... (what..?)

I mean 4 new platforms at Manchester Picc? 8 new long platforms at Euston??

After supporting HS2 for a long time, I've now come to the decision that £100bn would be better spent "injecting" it into the existing WCML!

Who agrees?
 
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nick.c

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After supporting HS2 for a long time, I've now come to the decision that £100bn would be better spent "injecting" it into the existing WCML!

Who agrees?
Sorry but I disagree. The problem is that investing whatever HS2 eventually costs into upgrading the classic WCML again will almost certainly result in a far smaller uplift in capacity. i.e. not cost effective.
 

Ianno87

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If HS2 where cancelled then I think most of the building work should continue.... (what..?)

I mean 4 new platforms at Manchester Picc? 8 new long platforms at Euston??

After supporting HS2 for a long time, I've now come to the decision that £100bn would be better spent "injecting" it into the existing WCML!

Who agrees?

Build vanity platforms that have no purpose and don't permit a single extra train to run. Fantastic idea!
 

JN114

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If HS2 gets cancelled the money isn’t being injected into the railways. The political parties against it have already come out and said as much.
 

takno

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If HS2 where cancelled then I think most of the building work should continue.... (what..?)

I mean 4 new platforms at Manchester Picc? 8 new long platforms at Euston??

After supporting HS2 for a long time, I've now come to the decision that £100bn would be better spent "injecting" it into the existing WCML!

Who agrees?
No, I don't agree that you've supported HS2 for a long time and just changed your mind. I think you're just saying that in an attempt to sound more reasonable and moderate, whilst quoting an over-the-top cost and parroting the absurd fantasy that any of the money would actually get diverted to the existing network. You build HS2 or you get nothing, that's the choice
 

nick.c

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After supporting HS2 for a long time, I've now come to the decision that £100bn would be better spent "injecting" it into the existing WCML!

Who agrees?
Thinking this through reasonably logically and in very simple terms....

The only realistic way that the WCML will be able to cope with expected future traffic flows is to increase the number of tracks from 2 to 3 in each direction. Given that, there are two options:

a) rebuild the existing railway trying to squeeze the extra two tracks into the existing alignment. This involves rebuilding most of the existing stations despite the fact that trains on the new tracks won't stop at any of these stations and involving a huge amount of demolition to existing properties immediately adjacent to the current route, or

b) build the two new tracks on a completely new largely rural alignment that in the main avoids significant urban areas. Although there are some landscape issues, nevertheless this option involves far fewer demolitions, disturbs far fewer people and is far less expensive.
 

Tobbes

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b) build the two new tracks on a completely new largely rural alignment that in the main avoids significant urban areas. Although there are some landscape issues, nevertheless this option involves far fewer demolitions, disturbs far fewer people and is far less expensive.

And can be straighter and quicker as well as cheaper and less disruptive. Who knew?
 

GRALISTAIR

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If (and I think it is a big if) HS2 gets cancelled or severely curtailed, any politician worth his salt is going to have to put something in its place IMHO. As an example if say the eastern arm got cancelled the carrot would be DEFINITELY electrify the MML and also add in Sheffield-Doncaster, Sheffield to Leeds and Sheffield to York in a rolling program. With the climate "crisis" and decarbonization agenda they would make sense to do anyway. I strongly feel OOC to Birmingham will get done in some way.
 

Tobbes

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If (and I think it is a big if) HS2 gets cancelled or severely curtailed, any politician worth his salt is going to have to put something in its place IMHO. As an example if say the eastern arm got cancelled the carrot would be DEFINITELY electrify the MML and also add in Sheffield-Doncaster, Sheffield to Leeds and Sheffield to York in a rolling program. With the climate "crisis" and decarbonization agenda they would make sense to do anyway. I strongly feel OOC to Birmingham will get done in some way.

I think that lot will happen anyway - all the LDHS routes and the main alternates should be in scope, with Chiltern an early candidate given the air quality issues in London.
 

tbtc

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Thinking this through reasonably logically and in very simple terms....

The only realistic way that the WCML will be able to cope with expected future traffic flows is to increase the number of tracks from 2 to 3 in each direction. Given that, there are two options:

a) rebuild the existing railway trying to squeeze the extra two tracks into the existing alignment. This involves rebuilding most of the existing stations despite the fact that trains on the new tracks won't stop at any of these stations and involving a huge amount of demolition to existing properties immediately adjacent to the current route, or

b) build the two new tracks on a completely new largely rural alignment that in the main avoids significant urban areas. Although there are some landscape issues, nevertheless this option involves far fewer demolitions, disturbs far fewer people and is far less expensive.

^^ THIS ^^

If you can build an extra pair of tracks from London to the West Midlands for the services that run non stop through Watford/ Milton Keynes/ Rugby etc then it doesn't matter whether those tracks follow the route that a Victorian entrepreneur chose or go a different way, since there will be no intermediate stations.

It'd clearly be a lot less disruptive to build two new tracks on a new alignment rather than try to squeeze them through the tight corridor that the current route takes.

We've spent a lot time arguing over whether there's scope for a handful of extra services a *day* up the WCML for Open Access (or Virgin's Blackpool services etc), so there's clearly no scope to fit many more paths on that route, compared to what HS2 could provide.

Either we build HS2 or we forget about increasing capacity between London and the Midlands/ northern England - the Government aren't going to just hand a blank cheque to some "Proper Railway Men" and let them build what they want instead - they'll spend the money on other things.

And there's a backlog of electrification to get on with (Bristol, Oxford etc) before we can start planning wiring up every other long distance main line - that'll be for the 2030s.
 

Grecian 1998

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I wonder what would have happened if HS2 had been called something like the 'WCML Capacity Upgrade' or 'North-Western Capacity Upgrade'. It sounds like something sensible and practical and immediately focuses on the point it's about capacity not speed - somewhat harder for its critics to argue it's frivolous and unnecessary than a name like 'High Speed Two'. Still, too late now.
 

Lockwood

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If HS2 is cancelled, people will find another scheme to protest against.

Improve the WCML? That puts construction vehicles in my town.

Wire an existing line? Ruins my view .
 

swt_passenger

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If HS2 where cancelled then I think most of the building work should continue.... (what..?)

I mean 4 new platforms at Manchester Picc? 8 new long platforms at Euston??

After supporting HS2 for a long time, I've now come to the decision that £100bn would be better spent "injecting" it into the existing WCML!

Who agrees?
“What if HS2 is cancelled” threads have been numerous over the last 5 or 6 years. There really isn’t much new to discuss, so don’t expect a long discussion, I suspect many forum members are fed up with the endless repeats.

The main point is that funding of HS2 is outside of the normal rail budget, it doesn’t magically become available to improve the existing network.
 

nimbus21

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And then there is the argument that there is a need to rebalance the nation's divide in eyswealth between the north and south by investing heavily in the northern routes. The result could be a thriving north, much less dependent on links with London leading to a drop in demand for journeys between the north and south.
 

Rhydgaled

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there's a backlog of electrification to get on with (Bristol, Oxford etc) before we can start planning wiring up every other long distance main line - that'll be for the 2030s.
While I agree with the principles discussed in the rest of your post (that we need extra capacity and that a new alignment should be much easier than putting the two additional tracks on the existing WCML alignment) I don't agree with that last sentence (or certain details of the HS2 route). Regarding electrification, even with the delays I believe it will have taken less than 10 years to electrify from Airport Junction to Cardiff Central and Newbury. The two elements postponed (Bristol and Oxford) rather than cancelled are of substantially less mileage; if Network Rail are able to move onto those immediately once they finish the wires to Cardiff then they would be in with a chance of finishing by 2025. That would allow a start to be made on the Midland Main Line north of Market Harborough before 2030. Even if I'm being too optimistic with the timetable for physical works, they should be able to "start planning wiring up every other long distance main line" by the end of 2020. Even if said planning is only counting the number of trains on each route and working out how much CO2 would be saved by electrifying each stretch in order to establish the ideal order to electrify each line, why couldn't this be done now? I would argue that that is exactly what the government / Network Rail should be doing, so that whenever the engineering bods become available we know where to send them next.

I wonder what would have happened if HS2 had been called something like the 'WCML Capacity Upgrade' or 'North-Western Capacity Upgrade'. It sounds like something sensible and practical and immediately focuses on the point it's about capacity not speed - somewhat harder for its critics to argue it's frivolous and unnecessary than a name like 'High Speed Two'. Still, too late now.
A while before HS2 was announced, Network Rail had something called something like the 'new lines programme', which proposed new High Speed lines for capacity reasons, without the HS2 name. Personally, hearing the name 'New Lines' meant what I expected was a programme of reconnecting towns to the network rather than what it actually was. 'WCML Capacity Upgrade' would have been similarly misleading (as it would be a new alignment). Maybe it should have been something like N.L,B.&M.R. (New London, Birmingham & Manchester Railway).

And then there is the argument that there is a need to rebalance the nation's divide in eyswealth between the north and south by investing heavily in the northern routes. The result could be a thriving north, much less dependent on links with London leading to a drop in demand for journeys between the north and south.
Which is a big part of the reason I feel the Birmingham terminus would be a mistake. Rebalancing the economy (and hopefully slowing/stopping London growth as a result so we don't need to keeping spending billions trying to squeese more and more rail capacity into the city) would be more likely to happen if you could also link the 'northern powerhouse' to other major regional cities, including Bristol. An X-shape network centred on Birmingham (with the south-west to north-east route being a mix of HSR and upgraded classic line) would be the way to go instead of the proposed Y (although much of the north-west to south-east route would be delivered as part of HS2 anyway).
 

tom73

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Thinking this through reasonably logically and in very simple terms....

The only realistic way that the WCML will be able to cope with expected future traffic flows is to increase the number of tracks from 2 to 3 in each direction. Given that, there are two options:

a) rebuild the existing railway trying to squeeze the extra two tracks into the existing alignment. This involves rebuilding most of the existing stations despite the fact that trains on the new tracks won't stop at any of these stations and involving a huge amount of demolition to existing properties immediately adjacent to the current route, or

b) build the two new tracks on a completely new largely rural alignment that in the main avoids significant urban areas. Although there are some landscape issues, nevertheless this option involves far fewer demolitions, disturbs far fewer people and is far less expensive.

Sounds a little like Lincolnshire with miles and miles of nothingness. However, much of the rural nothingness consists of farms which are owned by people who make their living from the land. Many UWC's on the Peterborough to Lincoln line via Spalding have no buildings within sight (nothingness) but are still used with some named after the farm it serves.
 

DarloRich

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here comes the list of pet, fantasy prospects...............

If HS2 where cancelled then I think most of the building work should continue.... (what..?)

I mean 4 new platforms at Manchester Picc? 8 new long platforms at Euston??

After supporting HS2 for a long time, I've now come to the decision that £100bn would be better spent "injecting" it into the existing WCML!

Who agrees?

This wont happen.

Thinking this through reasonably logically and in very simple terms....

The only realistic way that the WCML will be able to cope with expected future traffic flows is to increase the number of tracks from 2 to 3 in each direction. Given that, there are two options:

a) rebuild the existing railway trying to squeeze the extra two tracks into the existing alignment. This involves rebuilding most of the existing stations despite the fact that trains on the new tracks won't stop at any of these stations and involving a huge amount of demolition to existing properties immediately adjacent to the current route, or

b) build the two new tracks on a completely new largely rural alignment that in the main avoids significant urban areas. Although there are some landscape issues, nevertheless this option involves far fewer demolitions, disturbs far fewer people and is far less expensive.

This. Will. Not. Happen.

If (and I think it is a big if) HS2 gets cancelled or severely curtailed, any politician worth his salt is going to have to put something in its place IMHO. As an example if say the eastern arm got cancelled the carrot would be DEFINITELY electrify the MML and also add in Sheffield-Doncaster, Sheffield to Leeds and Sheffield to York in a rolling program. With the climate "crisis" and decarbonization agenda they would make sense to do anyway. I strongly feel OOC to Birmingham will get done in some way.

You are correct that something must be announced as a sop. It wont be anything like the coordinated fantasy you suggest here. It will be crumbs. It will be peicemeal and it will be almost pointless.

^^ THIS ^^

If you can build an extra pair of tracks from London to the West Midlands for the services that run non stop through Watford/ Milton Keynes/ Rugby etc then it doesn't matter whether those tracks follow the route that a Victorian entrepreneur chose or go a different way, since there will be no intermediate stations.

It'd clearly be a lot less disruptive to build two new tracks on a new alignment rather than try to squeeze them through the tight corridor that the current route takes.

We've spent a lot time arguing over whether there's scope for a handful of extra services a *day* up the WCML for Open Access (or Virgin's Blackpool services etc), so there's clearly no scope to fit many more paths on that route, compared to what HS2 could provide.

Either we build HS2 or we forget about increasing capacity between London and the Midlands/ northern England - the Government aren't going to just hand a blank cheque to some "Proper Railway Men" and let them build what they want instead - they'll spend the money on other things.

And there's a backlog of electrification to get on with (Bristol, Oxford etc) before we can start planning wiring up every other long distance main line - that'll be for the 2030s.

Almost close thread. The last line needs to be challenged. That should happen. it wont. We need to be very clear: The government will not spend the HS2 money on the railway. They will chuck out a few crumbs and people will pretend to be happy because HS2 got cancelled and their line got some new signs.

Only HS2 offers the opportunity for a paradigm shift in railway capacity in the UK.
 

tbtc

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I wonder what would have happened if HS2 had been called something like the 'WCML Capacity Upgrade' or 'North-Western Capacity Upgrade'. It sounds like something sensible and practical and immediately focuses on the point it's about capacity not speed - somewhat harder for its critics to argue it's frivolous and unnecessary than a name like 'High Speed Two'. Still, too late now.

I agree in theory - I can't remember when the CRTL became rebranded as HS1 though - was this only when HS2 became a commitment? Or was it that, once we had a route called HS1, any subsequent high speed routes were bound to follow with a similar name? Genuinely can't remember.

And then there is the argument that there is a need to rebalance the nation's divide in eyswealth between the north and south by investing heavily in the northern routes. The result could be a thriving north, much less dependent on links with London leading to a drop in demand for journeys between the north and south.

I hear this kind of SimCity stuff a bit - it's nice in theory but I don't know how much of a difference rail lines are going to make (to rebalance the UK economy).

But then there's the argument that a lot of this "thriving north" stuff tends to just mean "turn the gap between Manchester and the rest of northern England into an even bigger divide".

While I agree with the principles discussed in the rest of your post (that we need extra capacity and that a new alignment should be much easier than putting the two additional tracks on the existing WCML alignment) I don't agree with that last sentence (or certain details of the HS2 route). Regarding electrification, even with the delays I believe it will have taken less than 10 years to electrify from Airport Junction to Cardiff Central and Newbury. The two elements postponed (Bristol and Oxford) rather than cancelled are of substantially less mileage; if Network Rail are able to move onto those immediately once they finish the wires to Cardiff then they would be in with a chance of finishing by 2025. That would allow a start to be made on the Midland Main Line north of Market Harborough before 2030. Even if I'm being too optimistic with the timetable for physical works, they should be able to "start planning wiring up every other long distance main line" by the end of 2020. Even if said planning is only counting the number of trains on each route and working out how much CO2 would be saved by electrifying each stretch in order to establish the ideal order to electrify each line, why couldn't this be done now? I would argue that that is exactly what the government / Network Rail should be doing, so that whenever the engineering bods become available we know where to send them next

Bristol and Oxford are lower in mileage (than the bits from the Airport Junction to Cardiff), agreed, but they are going to be difficult/slow to do, with a lot of disruption - given all of the points etc - they may still take a long time to finalise.

And then there's Swansea, which will be expecting the wires that were once promised. And the MML to Sheffield and the various "transpennine" gaps between York and Manchester need to be tackled before we can start to get shovels in the ground and tackle the other English lines in dire need of electrification. There's just so much to tackle, and it'll mean a lot of disruption (turning lines into weekday/ daytime only, as far as passengers are concerned).

I'm not confident that the GWML shows a bright future for other bits of electrification - we can't even do a short simple single track branch like Windermere so what chance is there that we tackle all of the Cross Country route from Yorkshire to the West Country any time soon?
 

DarloRich

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But then there's the argument that a lot of this "thriving north" stuff tends to just mean "turn the gap between Manchester and the rest of northern England into an even bigger divide".

Correct. When is the actual north going to get any of this bounty? When are Middlesbrough or Darlington or Hartlepooh going to benefit? Oh hang on................

All the talk seems to be focused on Manchester, a smaller bit on Liverpool and smaller still bit on Leeds then nowt.
 
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si404

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The main point is that funding of HS2 is outside of the normal rail budget, it doesn’t magically become available to improve the existing network.
most of the money doesn't exist if it's not spent on HS2.

HS2 funding is mostly coming from loans backed by the existence of HS2 - you don't built it and the money doesn't exist, because there's no collateral for the loans and no future worth to pay it back. Building HS2 creates the money it costs to build it (or more, or less, depending on cost-benefit ratios) - it's capital expenditure, about creating capital.

Of course money based on increased business near stations, on increased ticket revenue, etc can be created by other schemes doing similar work.
 

option

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Correct. When is the actual north going to get any of this bounty? When are Middlesbrough or Darlington or Hartlepooh going to benefit? Oh hang on................

All the talk seems to be focused on Manchester, a smaller bit on Liverpool and smaller still bit on Leeds then nowt.

The answer there, for everything east of Manchester, is for them to get their act together & deal with the ridiculous number of local authorities.

What is 'North Tyneside'? All of Tyne & Wear should be one local authority, it's a similar population size to Birmingham, yet there's 5 councils!
 

option

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Which is a big part of the reason I feel the Birmingham terminus would be a mistake. Rebalancing the economy (and hopefully slowing/stopping London growth as a result so we don't need to keeping spending billions trying to squeese more and more rail capacity into the city) would be more likely to happen if you could also link the 'northern powerhouse' to other major regional cities, including Bristol. An X-shape network centred on Birmingham (with the south-west to north-east route being a mix of HSR and upgraded classic line) would be the way to go instead of the proposed Y (although much of the north-west to south-east route would be delivered as part of HS2 anyway).

Could have had a nice new underground station in Birmingham, with direct pedestrian links into New St/Moor St/Snow Hill.

Some of the long distance services could have then been moved to it over time, eg some of the XC routes & other InterCity services.
 

BigCj34

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I wonder what would have happened if HS2 had been called something like the 'WCML Capacity Upgrade' or 'North-Western Capacity Upgrade'. It sounds like something sensible and practical and immediately focuses on the point it's about capacity not speed - somewhat harder for its critics to argue it's frivolous and unnecessary than a name like 'High Speed Two'. Still, too late now.

I do wonder if that could've helped and not provided an easy name to protest against. The military tank was named as a "tank" as a codename by the British to prevent any unwanted attention though a rail project isn't bound to the same level of military confidentiality. Even if there was a prosaic name such as the West Midlands and North West Capacity Upgrade Programme the media probably would find a contracted slogan that they could use as a political target.
 

option

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most of the money doesn't exist if it's not spent on HS2.

HS2 funding is mostly coming from loans backed by the existence of HS2 - you don't built it and the money doesn't exist, because there's no collateral for the loans and no future worth to pay it back. Building HS2 creates the money it costs to build it (or more, or less, depending on cost-benefit ratios) - it's capital expenditure, about creating capital.

Of course money based on increased business near stations, on increased ticket revenue, etc can be created by other schemes doing similar work.


& that throws up the issue with how infrastructure is funded in the UK.

HS2 will have an income, therefore it can borrow based on using that income to pay the loans.
A council might want to make improvements at a station, which lead to an increase in passengers, yet they don't get the increased income (even just long enough to pay off a loan)
 

GRALISTAIR

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You are correct that something must be announced as a sop. It wont be anything like the coordinated fantasy you suggest here. It will be crumbs. It will be peicemeal and it will be almost pointless.

You may well be right - but I hope you are wrong.

Only HS2 offers the opportunity for a paradigm shift in railway capacity in the UK.

I totally agree --- but ---- I just can not see it all getting done. As I said in my OP- I think OOC to Birmingham(not sure where) gets done
 

Noddy

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If HS2 where cancelled then I think most of the building work should continue.... (what..?)

I mean 4 new platforms at Manchester Picc? 8 new long platforms at Euston??

After supporting HS2 for a long time, I've now come to the decision that £100bn would be better spent "injecting" it into the existing WCML!

Who agrees?

Big fat nope
 

Max

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Mod notice - As this seems to be in the realms of speculation, I have moved the thread to the Speculative Ideas section.
 

6Gman

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If HS2 where cancelled then I think most of the building work should continue.... (what..?)

I mean 4 new platforms at Manchester Picc?

Since Piccadilly - Stockport is at capacity what purpose would these platforms serve?
 
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