Illogical HS1 routed tickets

[zoothorn]

On 5th February I sent this to FCC using their web form

Today using a Family Railcard I bough two adult and a child off peak day return from Hertford Stations to Tunbridge Wells for this I was surprised to be charged £40.15 instead of the £34.75 quoted by the journey planner. I did not dispute it with the ticket office, as I assumed I had made a mistake, but on checking up once back home I see that the higher fare is for a via HS1 journey but I cannot see how such a journey could sensibly done using HS1, the journey planner suggests no routeing this way. Can you explain why this higher fare exists when there is no route for it and more importantly why it is charged by the booking office without a route being ascertained by the ticket clerk? My route was via Kings Cross, northern line to London Bridge and thence by an ordinary South east trains service. I would be grateful if you would refund me the £5.50 overcharge and ensure that staff are trained to offer the appropriate ticket for a journey. Many Thanks

I got this reply after chasing as they exceeded their 5 day response time:

Thank you for getting in touch about your journey between Hertford North and Tunbridge Wells on 5 February 2011.
We want to give our customers the best service we can and I am sorry you feel the tickets you were issued were not correct. To make sure that any problems can be dealt with promptly, customers should always check their tickets straight away, which will allow us to quickly resolve any queries.
HS1 services operate between London Bridge and Tunbridge Wells. The ticket you purchased at Hertford station would have allowed you to use HS1 services for the last part of your journey.
As the issue was not highlighted at the time of purchase, I am unable to offer a refund for the price difference between the tickets.
Thanks again for getting in touch.

To which I responded on 18th February

1. " HS1 services operate between London Bridge and Tunbridge Wells. The ticket you purchased at Hertford station would have allowed you to use HS1 services for the last part of your journey"

HS1 services do not operate between London Bridge and Tunbridge Wells. They operate between St Pancras International and various destination in East Kent via Ebbsfleet and Ashford. Tunbridge Wells is not one of those points. The only way to go from Hertford to Tunbridge Wells via HS1 is to change at St Pancras, Ashford and Tonbridge, a route that takes approx 4 hours with more changes according to journey planners compared to approx 3 hours and fewer changes going via conventional services via London Bridge.
The ticket, which I have retained does not mention HS1 validity and at no point was I asked what route I wished to use, if I had been, given the above I would have asked for not using HS1 as for this journey it is a pointless route.

2. " As the issue was not highlighted at the time of purchase, I am unable to offer a refund for the price difference between the tickets"

The existence of the two fares was not highlighted by FCC so I could hardly raise it at the time of purchase.

3. " I am unable to offer a refund for the price difference between the tickets."

Therefore I respectfully request that you do offer a refund of the price between the two tickets"

Since then, despite chasing I have heard nothing.

Do you think my request for refund of the difference question is reasonable?
Why are seemingly illogical via HS1 tickets available?

 

[Paul Kelly]

This is a very messy and interesting one. There are two sets of fares from Hertford Stations to Tunbridge Wells. The cheaper set are priced by First Capital Connect and routed +NOT VALID ON HS1. The more expensive set are priced by South Eastern Trains and routed +ANY PERMITTED. If HS1 was part of a permitted route from Hertford to Tunbridge Wells, this would make sense: you pay a small premium for a ticket that includes the possibility of travel on HS1, or get a slight discount if you choose to forgo those journey opportunities. But since HS1 is not a permitted route from Hertford to Tunbridge Wells, both sets of fares are valid over exactly the same routes and there is no point in ever paying the more expensive one.

The problem seems to be in South Eastern's cack-handed manipulation of the fares database when they introduced their services on HS1. The Hertford Stations to Tunbridge Wells fare actually forms part of a cluster-to-cluster fare, i.e. a group of origin stations and destination stations are grouped together and have exactly the same fare between them. For this case, the fare is from cluster SGN1 to SSE2 which contain the following stations respectively:

SGN1:

        0413    HERTFORD STNS   6022      POTTERS BAR   6074     BROOKMANS PK
        6006          BAYFORD   6070 HATFIELD (HERTS)   6096    WELWYN NORTH.
        6008          CUFFLEY   6073     WELHAM GREEN   6183  WELWYN GDN CITY

SSE2:

        0428  CANTERBURY STNS   5173          HALLING   5202    HIGHAM (KENT)   5231         WADHURST
        0437   MAIDSTONE STNS   5174        HERNE BAY   5203        ROCHESTER   5232          YALDING
        5004     ASHFORD INTL   5175        NEWINGTON   5205          KEMSLEY   5233        CROWHURST
        5008         CHARTHAM   5176     QUEENBOROUGH   5215           BATTLE   5234    EAST FARLEIGH
        5009          CHILHAM   5177     RAINHAM KENT   5217       ETCHINGHAM   5235      HIGH BROOMS
        5029           STURRY   5179          SELLING   5218            FRANT   5236    HILDENBOROUGH
        5031              WYE   5184 SHEERNESS ON SEA   5220         HEADCORN   5238        NEW HYTHE
        5091         BEARSTED   5187    SITTINGBOURNE   5223      MARDEN KENT   5240        STONEGATE
        5097   CHARING (KENT)   5189         SNODLAND   5224     PADDOCK WOOD   5241     WATERINGBURY
        5111           LENHAM   5191      STROOD KENT   5225         PLUCKLEY   5249            SWALE
        5140      HARRIETSHAM   5193          TEYNHAM   5226    ROBERTSBRIDGE   5294     LEIGH (KENT)
        5141    HOLLINGBOURNE   5196       WHITSTABLE   5227         BELTRING   5477        PENSHURST
        5162        AYLESFORD   5199          CHATHAM   5228      STAPLEHURST
        5167        FAVERSHAM   5200   CHESTFIELD & S   5229       TONBRIDGE.
        5169  GILLINGHAM KENT   5201           CUXTON   5230  TUNBRIDGE WELLS

It appears to me that the messiness has arisen because of the large size and wide geographic area covered by this cluster and the fact that for many of the stations, HS1 is indeed a permitted route to/from the stations in the first cluster. But not for Tunbridge Wells! When the HS1 fares were introduced, clearly this cluster should have been split up. But I guess that was too complicated for SET's fares and pricing people to do, not least because it would have presumably required extra negotiations with FCC since it affects their fares too.

The resulting messy situation seems to be confusing to staff and customers alike!

 

[tony_mac]

What is the ip address of their reply?
If it's from 'theTrainline' support staff, then that explains the lack of sensible reply.
Writing may get a better response, they do have a freepost address.

 

[yorkie]

Today using a Family Railcard I bough two adult and a child off peak day return from Hertford Stations to Tunbridge Wells for this I was surprised to be charged £40.15 instead of the £34.75 quoted by the journey planner.

Ticket office staff are required to enquire to determine the appropriate fare to change you, they should give you routeing options (where available, as in this case).

The exception to this is if you specifically asked for an 'Any permitted' ticket.

I did not dispute it with the ticket office, as I assumed I had made a mistake, but on checking up once back home I see that the higher fare is for a via HS1 journey but I cannot see how such a journey could sensibly done using HS1, the journey planner suggests no routeing this way.

The problem is with ticket office staff, not with the ticket existing. And the journey planner tends to show the quickest journeys, not all possible journeys.

Can you explain why this higher fare exists when there is no route for it

To determine if HS1 is a permitted route for this ticket, the Routeing Guide would need to be consulted. I have not determined if it is a permitted route or not, the fare suggests that it is but it may not be the case because ATOC are not too well organised in this area.

and more importantly why it is charged by the booking office without a route being ascertained by the ticket clerk?

That's a breach of the rules, and this can be reported to ATOC.

My route was via Kings Cross, northern line to London Bridge and thence by an ordinary South east trains service. I would be grateful if you would refund me the £5.50 overcharge and ensure that staff are trained to offer the appropriate ticket for a journey. Many Thanks

I agree you should be refunded as ticket office staff did not perform the duties required of them.

I got this reply after chasing as they exceeded their 5 day response time:

Thank you for getting in touch about your journey between Hertford North and Tunbridge Wells on 5 February 2011.
We want to give our customers the best service we can and I am sorry you feel the tickets you were issued were not correct.

The tickets were not correct, no issue of what you "feel", this is badly worded.

To make sure that any problems can be dealt with promptly, customers should always check their tickets straight away, which will allow us to quickly resolve any queries.

And ticket office staff should offer the cheapest available fare!

HS1 services operate between London Bridge and Tunbridge Wells. The ticket you purchased at Hertford station would have allowed you to use HS1 services for the last part of your journey.
As the issue was not highlighted at the time of purchase, I am unable to offer a refund for the price difference between the tickets.
Thanks again for getting in touch.

Report the matter to:

• Passenger Focus
• ATOC

To which I responded on 18th February

1. " HS1 services operate between London Bridge and Tunbridge Wells. The ticket you purchased at Hertford station would have allowed you to use HS1 services for the last part of your journey"

HS1 services do not operate between London Bridge and Tunbridge Wells. They operate between St Pancras International and various destination in East Kent via Ebbsfleet and Ashford. Tunbridge Wells is not one of those points. The only way to go from Hertford to Tunbridge Wells via HS1 is to change at St Pancras, Ashford and Tonbridge, a route that takes approx 4 hours with more changes according to journey planners compared to approx 3 hours and fewer changes going via conventional services via London Bridge.

Not relevant, the fact is the cheapest most appropriate fare should be offered. They failed to do this, and you have a valid claim on that basis.

The ticket, which I have retained does not mention HS1 validity

The ticket does not need to mention HS1 to be valid on HS1, that is determined by the Routeing Guide.

and at no point was I asked what route I wished to use, if I had been, given the above I would have asked for not using HS1 as for this journey it is a pointless route.

Good point, you should be offered the choice of routes and offered the cheaper fare.

2. " As the issue was not highlighted at the time of purchase, I am unable to offer a refund for the price difference between the tickets"

The existence of the two fares was not highlighted by FCC so I could hardly raise it at the time of purchase.

Agreed. Don't let them get away with this, and report it to Passenger Focus/ATOC. FCC had their chance to avoid it being escalated, and failed.

This is good evidence that the concerns highlighted by Which? magazine are entirely valid. You are not alone in experiencing such problems.

3. " I am unable to offer a refund for the price difference between the tickets."

Therefore I respectfully request that you do offer a refund of the price between the two tickets"

Since then, despite chasing I have heard nothing.

Do you think my request for refund of the difference question is reasonable?
Why are seemingly illogical via HS1 tickets available?

It is reasonable to ask for the difference back (plus an admin fee for your time!), I suggest you concentrate on the issue that you were not offered the fare and this is a breach of the rules of impartial retailing.

C.1 Impartiality

This is the most important requirement and is necessary because Retailers will be selling tickets or giving information about different TOCs.

Retailers at impartial Points of Sale must therefore act fairly and impartially between TOCs and any information that is provided must be factual, accurate and impartial (TSA clause 6-30(1)(a)).

Impartiality simply means providing the customer with information or a ticket that is the most suitable for their needs. Retailers must not favour their own train services, or those of any TOC over others in providing information or selling the ticket.

Where a customer asks to purchase a specific fare for a specific journey, this can be sold without giving any further information (TSA clause 6-30(2)(d)).

In many cases only one fare will meet the customer’s requirements as only one TOC provides a service for the journey concerned. Even where more than one TOC is involved the customer may be specific by stating their requirements in terms of:
• Destination station
• Ticket Type
• Train
• Class

In these circumstances, the Retailer only needs to seek further information when the customer wants to make a journey that cannot be made with that fare. An example is a customer requesting a discounted fare at a time of day when this fare is not valid.

Where the customer does not specify which fare they want and more than one is available that may meet their requirements, the Retailer must seek additional information to enable the correct fare to be sold. If more than one fare is suitable for their needs, the Retailer must explain the main features of the alternatives impartially (TSA clause 6-30(2)).

FCC is in breach of these conditions. This must be reported and dealt with appropriately, do not let them get away with it!

Note the words "must" above, not "should", MUST! It's quite clear they are in breach of the rules.

Good luck and please do let us know how you get on.

If you wish me to proof read letters, feel free to send me a PM (the PM facility is available when you have made 5 posts on the forum).

 

[zoothorn]

Many thanks for these comprehensive replies. I will pursue in writing and report back the outcome

 

[RJ]

Surely if the TOC's customer relation department hasn't provided a satisfactory response then the next step is Passenger Focus and not ATOC?

 

[FCC_C_Relation]

Dear Zoothorn,

I'm concerned to see that you have had problems with our station and customer relations. Because I don't have your details I'm unable to establish who you are to resolve this for you. If you could contact fcc.spotlight@firstgroup.com I'll get this corrected for you.

Kind regards,
Lee Millard
Customer Relations Manager, FCC.

 

[MikeWh]

Fair play to Lee Millard coming on here and seeking to resolve the issue. That's a good sign. I'd like to think that he will be able to get his (and SETs) fares departments to look at the whole issue of the cluster(s) where some destinations benefit from HS1 and some do not.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Hello Lee

*waves*

 

[ainsworth74]

Blimey we really do seem to have people from various TOCs keeping an eye on these forums hock:

Hey Lee!

*Also waves*

 

[zoothorn]

Well, an interesting response. Co-incidently, or not, I had an email from someone else at FCC after I wrote a letter, following the early comments on this group, enclosing all the email correspondence up to then. This said:

Thank you for your emails of 18 February & 3 March 2011 addressed to my colleague XXXXXX. Firstly please accept my apologies for the delay in my response; regrettably a number of disruptions to both our Thameslink and Great Northern routes have led to a backlog that has inevitably affected our response times.

We place great emphasis on good customer service and I am sorry that you are unhappy with the response that you have received from us regarding your recent ticket purchase. I have reinvestigated your complaint and I totally agree with you, it would not be viable to travel to Tunbridge Wells using HS1 services. Please accept my apologies for this, I have logged the detail of your complaint for the attention of XXXXXXXX so that any training issues can be addressed.

Please also accept my apologies that you were sold the move expensive ticket option. The tickets you were sold were route 'Any Permitted' tickets, whereas the cheaper tickets are routed 'not valid on HS1'. I have therefore sent you a Rail Travel Voucher for £5.40, which represents the difference in price for the tickets that you were sold to the ones that you required.

So thanks for all the advice and comment on this forum.

 

[jon0844]

A result. It's a shame FCC don't seem to want to address other issues that come up on here regularly (especially relating to things like their shambolic CIS system), why they've given up on using social networking to inform the pubic (despite advertising it on posters and their web site) and now seem to avoid promoting their online forums until about an hour (not literally) before it takes place so they end up with no questions - other than Peter Skuce asking about rolling stock and depot visits.

But, credit where credit is due on this one. Well done to Lee Millard!

 

[FCC_C_Relation]

Hi Peter!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hi all,

Thanks for the follow up comments.

Zoothorn,

I'm pleased to see that this has now been correctly addressed by Customer Relations - I'd like to claim credit, but I can't. We have been experiencing extremely high contact volumes for the last three months and it has led to a considerable backlog of correspondence. We're working through it as fast as possible - though it is taking us considerably longer than usual to get back to people. It's a real shame that you were given the incorrect information by my team the first time around - I'll make sure this is addressed.

In term of the ticketing issue itself, I have fed this back to our fares and retailing manager (fares aren't my strong point!). Roy will take this up with South Eastern and the rest of the industry at the next ATOC meeting. I don't believe this is a 'new issue' but it does seem to be causing problems for customers.

Re the further comments from Jonmorris0844,

I believe a few people keep an eye on the forum - but I'm new to it, so I'm unsure what has been said re CIS, Social Networking sites and our online forum. I'm happy to make a few points here though.

I'm sure you'll be aware that the CIS was migrated to a new supplier late last year. There were considerable problems with the old software, which was inflexible and relied on an awful lot of manual (human) input, rather than using the information available from the tracks and signalling systems.

The new system takes information from more sources than the old system did, which has led to better information on platform alterations and late running. That said, there are still some teething problems with the way that the software works at some locations. Our CIS project manager is working through the problems. Unfortunately it's not possible to introduce a new system that just 'works out of the box' - amongst other things, it needs to be told where track reporting points are located (TD's) and it also needs to have a huge number of line timings input so that it can work out where a train is. We are still altering some of these timings slightly to make the system more accurate. We are also integrating our systems with CIS systems operated by other operators (Network Rail, Southern, South West Trains, NXEA and South Eastern) so that the information flows better across our entire route. This is an industry wide issue and is being addressed at that level.

Re social networking, we do still use Twitter to provide automatic updates based on the journey details that customers supply. Admittedly We were more active with Twitter and Facebook in the past. Following a successful Twitter trial by First ScotRail we are looking to have a greater presence on the site in the near future. In the meantime there are a variety of ways of getting the information you need about our services - see http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/plan-your-journey/travel-tools/

Finally, you mention the online forum.

We do advertise the dates on the website - though I see that the next date is showing as 'TBC.' I'll take the issue up with Comms, who organise the events. We also hold a 4 weekly 'meet the manger' session, where you can come along for a chat. I'm normally at these events and would be happy to go thorough any concerns with you.

Thanks,

Lee.