• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

If you had a time machine...

Status
Not open for further replies.

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,294
Location
Yorks
There was a shortlist. The candidates were asked to write an expression of interest and Saville was the only one who was genuinely positive about rail travel, demonstrating this by being a regular user of British Rail. Sir Peter Parker had reservations, but that was what swung it for him.

I remember seeing the documentary on the InterCity 125 a few years ago, and I think it said that in focus groups he was the most popular. He was very well known as a DJ and TV personality at the time.

It included the advertising chap who made Sir PP wait in a room full of un-emptied ash trays etc.

I do agree with @tbtc that he was an unfortunate choice. If you wanted a top shelf Radio 1 DJ, the late great Kenny Everett would have been so much better.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Sun Chariot

Established Member
Joined
16 Mar 2009
Messages
6,550
Location
2 miles and 50 years away from the Longmoor Milita
Two more historical examples are:
  • the BTC tells Riddles not to disappear down the Standard Steam rabbit hole, and just build "Big 4" loco designs as an interim measure
I've mulled that one over the decades, too. I also sometimes wonder if, had Gresley not worked himself into an early grave, whether we would have seen a greater Chapelon-influence on LNER designs post-WW2.
 

simonw

Established Member
Joined
7 Dec 2009
Messages
1,402
1990: Sir Robert Reid (I) didn't retire as BR Chairman, carrying on for several more years before handing over to Chris Green. Mrs Thatcher didn't resign later that year, Captain Charisma didn't take over, Labour won the 1992 election and... railway privatisation never happened.

Subsequently... Labour lost the 2002 election and Michael Portillo became Prime Minister - so sadly we never got to see his great railway programmes. But nor did we see Prime Minister Cameron and some of the loons who followed...
Labour worked with the Tories to ensure privatisation was in place before they won the election.

Portillo was (is?) a brexiter so we may well have seen the 'loons '.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,294
Location
Yorks
Labour worked with the Tories to ensure privatisation was in place before they won the election.

Portillo was (is?) a brexiter so we may well have seen the 'loons '.

Well, New Labour were always pro-privatisation in every other service, so it wouldn't surprise me.
 

Bevan Price

Established Member
Joined
22 Apr 2010
Messages
8,321
I'd also prevent the reorganising of the regions (west of Salisbury etc) as this proved to be a terrible decision.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I'd also de-invent non-slam doors, so that we didn't have to wait around on cold platforms for ages for someone to open up the b****y train.
That would be a mixed blessing. Sometimes you had to wait for ages on the platform for someone with a carriage key walking the full length of the train to unlock every single door - and then check that every single door on the opposite side was also unlocked.
 

Bevan Price

Established Member
Joined
22 Apr 2010
Messages
8,321
1. Steam locos allowed to live their full "natural" lives instead of wasting money on unproven expensive diesels.
1a. Steady continuing programme of electrification for all except very "quiet" routes.
2. No Falklands war, so Thatcher lost the 1983 election.
3. No privatisations - anywhere - the main beneficiaries were always "speculators", rarely the "customers" or "passengers".
4. No use of 3+2 seating anywhere other than for short distance suburban services.
5. A more sensible examination of railway finance than Marples-Beeching. Yes, there would still have to be some closures, but not "closure was the only acceptable solution" that actually happened.
 

Pigeon

Member
Joined
8 Apr 2015
Messages
1,123
I hope that this isn't just a fantasy list of crayons through history. As the OP says, it is about specific decisions, where the decision makers chose option A and the time traveller could get them to choose option B instead. But they need to be the options that were actually on the table, not projects that were not on the agenda, or were never going to be feasible because of the economic and political situation at the time.

And it also includes events that did happen but our time traveller could have intervened to stop them from happening. Two thought provoking examples here are:

  • privatisation in the 1990s goes direct to a Network Rail type option missing out the Railtrack era
  • the coalition government in 2010 pulls the plug on HS2
Two more historical examples are:

  • the BTC tells Riddles not to disappear down the Standard Steam rabbit hole, and just build "Big 4" loco designs as an interim measure
  • the BTC doesn't panic, lets the Modernisation Plan pilot scheme run its course, and makes informed decisions at the end of it

Ha. The first two get my support, and the second two are what I was going to suggest :)

I could add: actually do the plan to eliminate unbraked freight stock.

It might be interesting to try on Brunel the argument that he really ought to put his atmospheric plans on hold for five years until the material he needs for the longitudinal valve makes it out of the labs, and the valve can be redesigned to make best use of its properties. By which time the traffic and train weights on the South Devon Railway would have developed to the point where even he could see it wasn't going to work, and in the longer term the development of railways in the West would have been accelerated by that link not being impoverished.

It might also be interesting to warn the GWR management to conclude the agreement with the B&G before the weekend.

Alternatively (you probably couldn't really do both), but on similar lines, warn the Midland management that the LNWR is about to pinch the Heads of the Valleys route out from under their noses.
 

Helvellyn

Established Member
Joined
28 Aug 2009
Messages
2,568
2. No Falklands war, so Thatcher lost the 1983 election.
My OP stated clearly go back in time and influence a decision, not just change history full stop.

But I will humour you - if Labour, under Foot, had won in '83 it's highly unlikely you would have had sectorisation, which I think overall was extremely positive for BR.
 

Magdalia

Established Member
Joined
1 Jan 2022
Messages
7,344
Location
The Fens
Ha. The first two get my support, and the second two are what I was going to suggest :)

I could add: actually do the plan to eliminate unbraked freight stock.
Your post in another discussion has reminded me of another.

Persuade Gerry Fiennes to wait until he'd retired before publishing "I tried to run a railway".
 

Backroom_boy

Member
Joined
28 Dec 2019
Messages
583
Location
London
Labour worked with the Tories to ensure privatisation was in place before they won the election.

Portillo was (is?) a brexiter so we may well have seen the 'loons '.
Is that the case? I seem to remember John Prescott was threatening to renationalise everything which depressed the sale price for elements of BR
 

Bevan Price

Established Member
Joined
22 Apr 2010
Messages
8,321
My OP stated clearly go back in time and influence a decision, not just change history full stop.

But I will humour you - if Labour, under Foot, had won in '83 it's highly unlikely you would have had sectorisation, which I think overall was extremely positive for BR.
Personally I think sectorisation was a mixed blessing. It enabled better comprehension about railway finances, but it was the start of fragmentation. And there were silly things such as freight sectors disabling the ETH on their Class 90s, to try and stop the passenger sectors from "borrowing" them. And one sector replacing some points by plain track because the other sector did not want to contribute to the cost (or that was the tale we were told at the time about St. Helens Junction and the connection to the St. Helens line.
)
 

mrcheek

Established Member
Joined
11 Sep 2007
Messages
1,604
1. Steam locos allowed to live their full "natural" lives instead of wasting money on unproven expensive diesels.
1a. Steady continuing programme of electrification for all except very "quiet" routes.
2. No Falklands war, so Thatcher lost the 1983 election.
3. No privatisations - anywhere - the main beneficiaries were always "speculators", rarely the "customers" or "passengers".
4. No use of 3+2 seating anywhere other than for short distance suburban services.
5. A more sensible examination of railway finance than Marples-Beeching. Yes, there would still have to be some closures, but not "closure was the only acceptable solution" that actually happened.
so what about the Falkland Islanders? Just let them all be killed?
 

osmarks

Member
Joined
23 Dec 2024
Messages
14
Location
England
Ideally, convince the original engineers to build tunnels/bridges for larger loading gauges.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
44,294
Location
Yorks
That would be a mixed blessing. Sometimes you had to wait for ages on the platform for someone with a carriage key walking the full length of the train to unlock every single door - and then check that every single door on the opposite side was also unlocked.

I must admit, I never had that in Kent !
 

mrcheek

Established Member
Joined
11 Sep 2007
Messages
1,604
How about we go back to the 1820s or 1830s

"Guys, build these things as straight as you can, believe me, it will be worth it in the long run"
 

Grecian 1998

Member
Joined
27 Oct 2019
Messages
525
Location
Bristol
Three things I'd have liked to encourage at the dawn of the railways:

1. As suggested above, encourage railway companies to direct engineers to work to a larger loading gauge for tunnels and bridges, allowing bigger trains.

2. As also suggested above, encourage railway companies to spend more money building lines in as straight a direction as possible.

3. Encourage the UK government to take a much more hands on role in creating a more strategic rail network, avoiding unnecessary duplicate routes (that doesn't mean all duplicate routes, I'm thinking of routes like Tavistock to Plymouth where a planned network would never have created two different routes). With hindsight it would have generally been better to choose one route between major cities and try to future-proof it e.g. quadruple tracking wherever possible. Additionally, try to consolidate all services into single mainline stations in major cities where possible to avoid the sort of logistical mess which arose in Gloucester.

I suspect all of these would have been anathema to the laissez-faire, 'let the market dictate what is required' mindset of the Establishment of the time, but it might be possible to make some difference. If the WCML had been planned as a through route from London to Glasgow from the start, with a loop through Manchester / Bolton as well as the existing loop at Birmingham and mainline stubs to Liverpool etc., then future modernisation would likely have been much easier. It might also have been possible to build a more direct and faster route from Newcastle - Edinburgh, albeit I understand Northumberland and East Lothian are rather hilly.

Again, this is all with hindsight - you can't really criticise 1830s railway directors for failing to predict the future nearly 200 years later.
 

Sun Chariot

Established Member
Joined
16 Mar 2009
Messages
6,550
Location
2 miles and 50 years away from the Longmoor Milita
How about we go back to the 1820s or 1830s

"Guys, build these things as straight as you can, believe me, it will be worth it in the long run"
Or, at [pick any of your choice] early1840s railway promoters' event, jump up on stage and shout at the bemused crowd: "Don't invest - this one's a complete basket-case".

The 1840s saw the UK's "Railway Mania" - a stock market "bubble": as the share price of many embryonic "to be" railway companies increased, speculators invested even more money, which further increased the price of railway shares, until the share price collapsed. The Mania reached its zenith in 1846.
About a third of the railways authorised were never built—the companies either collapsed because of poor financial planning, were bought out by larger competitors before they could build their line, or turned out to be fraudulent enterprises to channel investors' money into other businesses.
 

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
9,770
Keep the track bed from the majority of Beeching cuts. If the cuts were necessary, building over old rail shouldn't have been. Also more locally, build the PiccVic underground and keep the heavy rail to Bury!
 

Bevan Price

Established Member
Joined
22 Apr 2010
Messages
8,321
so what about the Falkland Islanders? Just let them all be killed?
I was just daydreaming that the invasion never happened. The Tories were very unpopular until Thatcher's actions led to us winning the war, as a lot of people decided that they liked her. (They chose to ignore than in the 4 years since she became PM, unemployment had increased by, on average, about 2000 people every single day. ).
 

simonw

Established Member
Joined
7 Dec 2009
Messages
1,402
Keep the track bed from the majority of Beeching cuts. If the cuts were necessary, building over old rail shouldn't have been. Also more locally, build the PiccVic underground and keep the heavy rail to Bury!
What would have been the econmic cost of keeping tracks free from any development compared with the saving in reopening costs?
 

PMN1

Member
Joined
20 Sep 2013
Messages
61

3. Encourage the UK government to take a much more hands on role in creating a more strategic rail network, avoiding unnecessary duplicate routes (that doesn't mean all duplicate routes, I'm thinking of routes like Tavistock to Plymouth where a planned network would never have created two different routes). With hindsight it would have generally been better to choose one route between major cities and try to future-proof it e.g. quadruple tracking wherever possible. Additionally, try to consolidate all services into single mainline stations in major cities where possible to avoid the sort of logistical mess which arose in Gloucester.

Were the multiple routes all bad?

It did give a degree of alternate routes, eventually.

OK so you can quad track a particular route but if there is an issue on that route then it doesn't mater how many lines there are its still closed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Talking of gauges, I would assume by now someone has done the calculations of what the extra percentage costs would have been had UK loading gauges been more like current European gauges??
 
Last edited:

Magdalia

Established Member
Joined
1 Jan 2022
Messages
7,344
Location
The Fens
Or, at [pick any of your choice] early1840s railway promoters' event, jump up on stage and shout at the bemused crowd: "Don't invest - this one's a complete basket-case".

The 1840s saw the UK's "Railway Mania" - a stock market "bubble": as the share price of many embryonic "to be" railway companies increased, speculators invested even more money, which further increased the price of railway shares, until the share price collapsed. The Mania reached its zenith in 1846.
About a third of the railways authorised were never built—the companies either collapsed because of poor financial planning, were bought out by larger competitors before they could build their line, or turned out to be fraudulent enterprises to channel investors' money into other businesses.
A time machine isn't required for that. You can do it now on this forum for a selection of basket case reopening proposals.
 

The exile

Established Member
Joined
31 Mar 2010
Messages
9,333
Location
Somerset
How about we go back to the 1820s or 1830s

"Guys, build these things as straight as you can, believe me, it will be worth it in the long run"
In the 1820s and 30s they generally did - it’s the ones that came later (as they got into more difficult territory and costs began to spiral) that got more sinuous.
 

The Foghorn

On Moderation
Joined
3 Dec 2024
Messages
59
Location
Spalding
To be fair to the earliest railways, the engineers had pick, shovel, barrow, dynamite and navvies. They built to the loading guage that the technology permitted within reasonable budgets. The Great Central was built much later with more generous clearances. Then we shut much of the GC network. DOH!
 

simonw

Established Member
Joined
7 Dec 2009
Messages
1,402
To be fair to the earliest railways, the engineers had pick, shovel, barrow, dynamite and navvies. They built to the loading guage that the technology permitted within reasonable budgets. The Great Central was built much later with more generous clearances. Then we shut much of the GC network. DOH!
Slightly more generous. Not really game changing.
 

BazingaTribe

Member
Joined
7 Oct 2024
Messages
390
Location
Basingstoke
Just watched Jago Hazzard's epic video on the Victoria line and I admit this is selfish, but (a) extend the line to Chingford in the North and (b) put in a station at Manor House (because the Victoria Line runs beneath the Piccadilly line there but doesn't stop). 1980s (lived in Chingford) and 1990s me (went to uni in London and lived out at Harringay Green Lanes) would have had so much more fun.

And potentially take the job I got right after uni at the Charities Commission instead of in Dublin so I could ride the tube every day. I admit it probably would have eventually got tiring and overwhelming, especially if I still had to live with my mum and dad outside Reading, but the only thing I miss about no longer commuting to work every day now I'm remote is no longer taking the train.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top