Liam_Hendry
Member
If there was a new train, what would you want it to be like ? which company would you pick ? how fast would it go ? where would it go ? Thoughts anyone...
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If there was a new train, what would you want it to be like ?
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Rich McLean
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A fleet of go anywhere 2 & 3 Coach DMU's with gangway connections, with a top speed of 75mph and 3+2 seating to replace the fleet of pacers in the north
Drsatan
Established Member
3+2 seating? No thanks, especially not on long journeys.
Besides, it's been discussed before that following electrification there should be enough 150s and 153s to replace Pacers, but only in the short term since by 2019 (the year when Pacers must be withdrawn since they are not DDA compliant) since by then, the 150 fleet will be over 30 years old and will need significant refurbishment in order to remain in service.
sprinterguy
Veteran Member
It's been discussed before and widely debunked that the amount of electrification that is likely to have been undertaken by the end of 2019 will be sufficient to replace all of the Pacers. New DMUs will be needed if all of the Pacers are to be withdrawn by the date that the new DDA regulations come into force. Even if further electrification takes place after 2020, it would make sense to order new DMUs now because as electrification spreads the new trains can also be used to displace Sprinters on remaining diesel routes.
tbtc
Veteran Member
Even if there were going to be enough DMUs freed up by electrification to replace Pacers based on existing services (which there won't) there are the awkward facts of increased passenger numbers (on most lines)/ additional services (many lines)/ new diesel lines opening (like the Portishead plans)...
...and that's ignoring the fact that Scottish electrification has been scaled back for now, too many of the electrified lines are the "wrong" type to free up 75mph DMUs (not a lot of those in Leicester or Swindon etc)
...and that's ignoring the fact that Scottish electrification has been scaled back for now, too many of the electrified lines are the "wrong" type to free up 75mph DMUs (not a lot of those in Leicester or Swindon etc)
Even with the current electrification schemes until 2019, the stock released by those schemes may not be suitable for directly (or even indirectly) cascading the pacers to the scrapheap, so as sprinterguy says, we will need some new DMUs; personally I would like to see a 172-derived train with possibly a 4-car variant to cope with rising passenger numbers, in addition to 2 and 3-car ones now.
EDIT: tbtc has echoed my thoughts exactly (we seemed to have posted at the same time
).
EDIT: tbtc has echoed my thoughts exactly (we seemed to have posted at the same time
).
Bi mode, in the sense it has a diesel engine plus the option to go electric, OLE or 3rd rail.
No first class. (I strongly disagree with the idea of first class)
5 vehicles semi permanently coupled with corridors all round. (Leaves the option to stick two together on inter city routes)
125mph top speed on the juice, 100mph off the juice.
Buffet service, probably micro buffet.
Based on the mk4 profile with a tilti mech.
2+1 seating, 2+2 seats on the high cap version.
Disabled toilet.
Space for around ten bikes.
Rolling screens hung on the ceiling with destinations etc.
Sliding plug power doors.
Sound proofed to high heaven and air con as standard.
No first class. (I strongly disagree with the idea of first class)
5 vehicles semi permanently coupled with corridors all round. (Leaves the option to stick two together on inter city routes)
125mph top speed on the juice, 100mph off the juice.
Buffet service, probably micro buffet.
Based on the mk4 profile with a tilti mech.
2+1 seating, 2+2 seats on the high cap version.
Disabled toilet.
Space for around ten bikes.
Rolling screens hung on the ceiling with destinations etc.
Sliding plug power doors.
Sound proofed to high heaven and air con as standard.
A new bi-model 3 or 4 coach train, with 23m coaches and 2+2 seating (so if there aren't enough built/around then there could be the option to go over to 3+2 seating if really needed).
Ideally with a top speed of 100mph under electric traction and options for top speeds of up to 90mph under diesel traction. The range under diesel would be able to vary depending on the top speed and acceleration. This would enable them to keep mostly out of the way of faster services if needed or trundle up and down all day on self contained lines where speeds are less critical.
It would mean that when a line was being electrified that it wouldn't mean that all new stock would be required. Also it would mean that difficult sections of line could be missed out and done at a later date if needed.
Ideally with a top speed of 100mph under electric traction and options for top speeds of up to 90mph under diesel traction. The range under diesel would be able to vary depending on the top speed and acceleration. This would enable them to keep mostly out of the way of faster services if needed or trundle up and down all day on self contained lines where speeds are less critical.
It would mean that when a line was being electrified that it wouldn't mean that all new stock would be required. Also it would mean that difficult sections of line could be missed out and done at a later date if needed.
Don't really care, so long as they are:-
1) Flexible design, so you can have modular interiors according to use
1a) Fit for purpose. Eg Don't pretend that outer suburban stock is suitable for Intra-Urban. Hence modular interiors
2) Plentiful, so there are enough for current and foreseeable service levels - and a little beyond.
3) COMPATIBLE WITH EACH OTHER, even if they start off working in Penzance and Inverness (Sod different designs - there should be a standard protocol, and if the designers can't comply they don't make the shortlist)
1) Flexible design, so you can have modular interiors according to use
1a) Fit for purpose. Eg Don't pretend that outer suburban stock is suitable for Intra-Urban. Hence modular interiors
2) Plentiful, so there are enough for current and foreseeable service levels - and a little beyond.
3) COMPATIBLE WITH EACH OTHER, even if they start off working in Penzance and Inverness (Sod different designs - there should be a standard protocol, and if the designers can't comply they don't make the shortlist)
I agree with the Pacer/Sprinter/Super Sprinter replacement idea, but I'll go for a locomotive instead. The Class 38. A Type 3 Bo-Bo with 1,750 hp for light general duties, required to be R/A 5 or lighter. Almost everything we have bought since the 1970s has been a Type 5. Now, that's fine for heavy goods, but not for RHTTs, infrastructure, trip workings, ECS deliveries and so on. Ideally, this would be a cut-down 66, but EMD simply cannot produce anything small enough. Whatever it is, it has to be compatible with 66s, in case it's needed as a pilot. The idea is to replace all the remaining 20s, 31s, 37s and so on with a single, standard design that uses far less fuel, is cheaper to maintain and is generally more modern.
dcsprior
Member
Surely this means no 2nd class, not no 1st class?
Sorry, to clarify I mean 2+1 seating in second class, big seats. Comfy and with a decent Gangnam down the middle.
So basically first class seating for everyone.
asylumxl
Established Member
D365
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0:59 
[youtube]9bZkp7q19f0[/youtube]
[youtube]9bZkp7q19f0[/youtube]
D365
Veteran Member
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Decent Gangnam (PSY) down the middle? Sorry, that was pathetic, even by my standards... Carry on!
ryan125hst
Established Member
oh my god, bloody autocorrect!! Gangway is what I meant
And there's me thinking you are expecting everyone to do Gangnam style down the isle. It will chear commuters up I suppose
I have just started typing my ideas up on the notes app on my iPhone when I accidentally highlighted it all and selected paste.:mad: It's now all gone and there's no undo button.
Ill try again tomorrow if I get the time.
D365
Veteran Member
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There is actually an undo button but it's hard to get to... I love the auto-corrections my friends get! I wouldn't mind a bit of gangnam on the train - in fact, that's the only thing I want. Even if it's a Pacer of some sorts, as long as it has "gangnamers", I'm happy
ryan125hst
Established Member
My ideal Intercity train would be loco hauled as it is the only way to comfortably travel long distances (4 hours +) by train. Before designing the train, BR Mark 1,2,3 and 4 carriages, as well as well as modern Intercity stock such as Voyager's, Meridan's, Adelante's, Class 444's and Pendolino's would be examined, and any good features would be taken from them (see below), while bad features such as smelly toilets and cramped interiors would be noted and avoided.
All of its seats would have a view, as in the Mark 1 and 2 carriages, and it would be air conditioned and contain two toilets per coach (and only two or three disabled toilets per train) as with the HST's. It would then include more modern elements, such as the sliding plug doors and an appearance similar to that of a Mark 4 coach (probably updated slightly to include features such as electronic destination displays and electric folding steps) It would also contain a more modern design of interior, like that of the Voyager's and Pendolino's, such as sliding doors between the gangways as well as between the saloon and the vestibules, and electric displays within the coach to inform passengers of the station stops and any important announcements. It would be capable of 140mph running.
It would be formed as follows:
If a higher rate of acceleration was required, I would allow the DVT to be fitted with a pantograph, transformer and rectifier instead of the loco, and would allow traction inverters and motors to be placed under the coaches. On electric power, the DVT will provide the electric power for the coaches. It will be sent along bus cables as with the Pendolino's to each passenger coach. On diesel power, the locomotive's engine will do the same. Third rail shoes will allow the train to operate on third rail lines without the need for diesel power.
*The electronic reservation displays would have a red, yellow and green LED lights: Red to tell passengers that the seat is reserved, yellow to say that it is reserved later in the journey, and green to say that the seat is free until the terminus. There would also be a screen telling passengers the name of the person (or people if the seat has been reserved for multiple legs) who has reserved the seat and the stations that the seat has been reserved between.
I hope that isn't too long. I've also got an idea for medium distance (between 2 and 4 hour) trains and regional/ local trains. However they are mostly improvements of existing trains, such as lengthening them and improving the catering. I will let you digest the above first though!
What do you think? Would it ever be built? Have you got any questions?
All of its seats would have a view, as in the Mark 1 and 2 carriages, and it would be air conditioned and contain two toilets per coach (and only two or three disabled toilets per train) as with the HST's. It would then include more modern elements, such as the sliding plug doors and an appearance similar to that of a Mark 4 coach (probably updated slightly to include features such as electronic destination displays and electric folding steps) It would also contain a more modern design of interior, like that of the Voyager's and Pendolino's, such as sliding doors between the gangways as well as between the saloon and the vestibules, and electric displays within the coach to inform passengers of the station stops and any important announcements. It would be capable of 140mph running.
It would be formed as follows:
- DVT containing a driving cab, generator which also doubles up as an emergency power source to rescue the train should the other engines fail, and a luggage compartment. It may contain a guards compartment, but that might not be needed, as you will see later.
- First class coach containing a galley kitchen area. This appears to be common in Europe and America. This is where there is a coffee machine, ovens and a microwave or two on the side of the carriage, but passengers are allowed to walk down the centre. This would serve complimentry drinks, snacks and light meals to first class passengers.
LRC cars in Canada: http://www.viarail.ca/en/resources/lrc-car-business-class
360 degree view of LRC cars, click on the galley on the left hand side: http://www.viarail.ca/sites/all/files/media/360/LRC_Business/index.html
Siemens Velaro in Europe (there's a 360° view online somewhere to): http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Velaro_E_club_galley.jpg
There would then be luggage space on each side of the coach, and then 38 seats in a 2+1 layout. All seats would have tables. There would be windows blinds and reading lights, plug sockets, free WiFI and electronic reservation displays that work*. At the end of the coach, there will be wheelchair spaces and a disabled toilet (This carriage only has one toilet in it).
- One or two more first class coaches, with a toilet and luggage space at each end of the coach and around 48 seats.
- A restaurant coach that can be used by both first and standard class passengers. It would provide full English breakfasts in the morning, a lunch at midday, afternoon tea at 4pm and three course meals in the evening. It would have two toilets at the first class end (the second taking up the regular luggage space as it would not be needed) and around 28 seats in the same style as first class but without electronic reservation displays as the coach will be non reserved. There would then be a serving area followed by a large kitchen and pantry, and at the standard class end, a staff compartment followed by a staff toilet.
- A buffet car, containing a guards compartment followed by a staff toilet and staff compartment at the first class end. It would then have a small kitchen to serve hot snacks such as bacon sandwiches, burgers, toasties, soup and reheated hot meals to standard class passengers, and a fairly large buffet counter. There would then be around 38 standard class seats, but they would all have tables. This coach would be unclassified as with the restaurant car, but would have electronic reservation displays as it would be used as standard accommodation on busy trains.
- An accessible standard class coach which would have an accessible toilet and wheelchair spaces on the side nearest to the buffet car, around 72 seats and a toilet and luggage rack at the other end.
- Between two and five standard class coaches. These would contain a toilet and luggage rack at each end, and around 76 seats. There would be either four or six tables of four per coach, the rest of which would be airline seats. All seats would have a view. Standard class would not have window blinds, but WiFi, plug sockets and reading lights would be provided. At the other end, there would be a standard toilet and a luggage rack.
- As well as the dot matrix displays provided at the end of each coach, as with most modern trains, a colour screen displaying the speed and location of the train, list of stations the train will call at, and status of the train (on time, late, predicted arrival time at each station ect.) will be located in the vestibules. Another screen nearby will allow passengers to check on their connecting trains.
- A bi-mode locomotive that will have a similar power to the class 91 locomotives on OLE, but will also have a 5000hp diesel engine (or two smaller engines). It would also be able to run at up to 100mph on third rail and would have an emergency backup engine as with the DVT. The locomotive would have a cab at each end, and will also have accommodation for a second driver, consisting of a compartment to sit in, a kettle and microwave, and a toilet cubicle. It would be capable of operating in multiple with other locomotives via TDM or via the ARR system used by class 66's and 67's. The ETS supply and couplers will be compatible with older locomotives.
If a higher rate of acceleration was required, I would allow the DVT to be fitted with a pantograph, transformer and rectifier instead of the loco, and would allow traction inverters and motors to be placed under the coaches. On electric power, the DVT will provide the electric power for the coaches. It will be sent along bus cables as with the Pendolino's to each passenger coach. On diesel power, the locomotive's engine will do the same. Third rail shoes will allow the train to operate on third rail lines without the need for diesel power.
*The electronic reservation displays would have a red, yellow and green LED lights: Red to tell passengers that the seat is reserved, yellow to say that it is reserved later in the journey, and green to say that the seat is free until the terminus. There would also be a screen telling passengers the name of the person (or people if the seat has been reserved for multiple legs) who has reserved the seat and the stations that the seat has been reserved between.
I hope that isn't too long. I've also got an idea for medium distance (between 2 and 4 hour) trains and regional/ local trains. However they are mostly improvements of existing trains, such as lengthening them and improving the catering. I will let you digest the above first though!
What do you think? Would it ever be built? Have you got any questions?
tbtc
Veteran Member
You've made your mind up before you've even asked the question. Why does loco hauled automatically mean "comfortable"?
Some people start from the position that loco hauled (inc HST) is the answer and then try to justify backwards from there.
For example, one of the main reasons people dislike Pendolini/ Voyagers is the "cramped" interior caused by the need for a tilt profile (in order to run at over 110mph on the WCML). That'd be the same if it were loco hauled trains capable of tilting at 125mph, but some people choose to ignore that (and compare the 390s to the Mk3s that ran the slower service before).
starrymarkb
Established Member
0:59
[youtube]9bZkp7q19f0[/youtube]
Personally I prefer Gothic Style
[youtube]S_NqVd5Wqv0[/youtube]
Manchester77
Established Member
Mitt Romney style for me
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=yTCRwi71_ns&desktop_uri=/watch?v=yTCRwi71_ns
ryan125hst
Established Member
The reason why loco hauled means more comfortable is because the carriage is far quieter. I've traveled on 225's and HST's a to London, Doncaster and York from Retford a few times and, to be honest, haven't traveled on much else other than Sprinters and Pacers. However, even that has shown me just how smooth and quiet they are.
I've been on a Class 180 a few times actually went to London on one about three years ago and found it comfortable (other than the fact that the air conditioning in the end of the coach that the seat reservations in wasn't working!). This leaves me to believe that for journeys of up to three, maybe four hours, DMU's are acceptable. Any more than that though, and it would be unpleasant. You hear complaints about Voyagers a lot, but I haven't heard any complaints about the Meridians. I know that there were a lot of improvements between the Voyagers and the Meridians, but could the shorter journey times be the reason?
Can anyone who has traveled from Aberdeen to Penzance on a Voyager, or at least spend 5 hours + on a DMU give their opinions on long distance DMU travel?
starrymarkb
Established Member
Nothing wrong with a good intercity EMU... The ICE-T is a fantastic machine and near silent in the cabin too (you can hear the Tractionpacks Gear changing up to about 30mph beyond that they are quieter then the ambient noise in the coach)
Interior
Standard
Lounge
Bar
First
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
5 hours Exeter to York on a 220 - Smooth, engine noise apparent when accelerating from a standing start but otherwise not noticeable unless major power changes are commanded.
4.5 hours on a diverted 159 - faint chugging when sat over the engine, sit at the other end of the coach and very little noise at all
Mallaig to Glasgow on a 156 is excellent. Nothing to do with scenery either. Fellow passengers are nice people, staff are great, the trains are perfect for the job at hand.
tbtc
Veteran Member
The reason that 225s seem quiet isn't because they are loco hauled, it's because they are electric. You'd have just as quiet a journey on an EMU like a 390. Nobody complains about the noises on Pendolini.
ryan125hst
Established Member
Nothing wrong with a good intercity EMU... The ICE-T is a fantastic machine and near silent in the cabin too (you can hear the Tractionpacks Gear changing up to about 30mph beyond that they are quieter then the ambient noise in the coach)
Interior
Standard
Lounge
Bar
First
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
5 hours Exeter to York on a 220 - Smooth, engine noise apparent when accelerating from a standing start but otherwise not noticeable unless major power changes are commanded.
4.5 hours on a diverted 159 - faint chugging when sat over the engine, sit at the other end of the coach and very little noise at all
I agree with you about EMU's. While I've not been on them yet, from what i've seen on You Tube, the Pendolino's seem quite on the inside. I doubt if they are much louder than loco hauled stock. It's just shame about the design faults (I won't mention them, they are mentioned enough on here!). To be honest, I think the Penolino's are fantastic trains.
I'm surprised by what you have said about your DMU rides. I take back what I have said about them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
With that sorted, what do you think about my new train idea?
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tbtc
Veteran Member
Nothing wrong with a good intercity EMU... The ICE-T is a fantastic machine and near silent in the cabin too (you can hear the Tractionpacks Gear changing up to about 30mph beyond that they are quieter then the ambient noise in the coach)
Interior
Standard
Lounge
Bar
First
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Those pictures are fantastic
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