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If IEP gets Cancelled?

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starrymarkb

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If IEP is cancelled then what happens?

Roger Ford is suggesting a Traxx or Eurosprinter derivative haling Mk3s, or new build Voyagers with Pantograph car

I can see this ending up with a Railjet UK in 10-15 years
So dust off your Crystal balls and deliver your Criswell Monologues
 
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WillPS

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I think lengthening the Voyagers and Meridians with Pantographs is a fab idea. The Voyagers will certainly need an extensive refit by the time CrossCountry is up for renewal though.
 

silentone

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If IEP is cancelled then what happens?

Roger Ford is suggesting a Traxx or Eurosprinter derivative haling Mk3s, or new build Voyagers with Pantograph car

I can see this ending up with a Railjet UK in 10-15 years
So dust off your Crystal balls and deliver your Criswell Monologues


It will probably come to be the case that the review of the project will deem the project too expensive and poor value for money and the report will recommend purchasing something of a 'stock' design.

It will probably follow on to recommend further electrification rather than have hybrid running, and recommend further platform lengthening to support longer trains.

Electrifying additional parts of the route will prove too costly and it will no doubt come to be the case that intercity services to Aberdeen & Inverness will become part of a regional operator and services from Edinburgh becoming more frequent and fully electric running.
 

A60K

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I'm losing track, but how does the HS2 announcement affect IEP

It doesn't. HS2 is about WCML services at this point, ECML replacement services won't come until later, if any of HS2 even happens.

The Pendolinos released by HS2, if it ever happens, should be redeployed to replace Voyagers on the WCML Birmingham to Scotland services and perhaps Manchester to Scotland as well, assuming those services will be available to electric traction by then. Many of them will still be working the residual WCML classic services though.

 

dstrat

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Weeeell, I imagine the Intercity 225 will still be rolling when we are all dead and buried. Sad, but arguably it is the best thing on our railways right now anyway :)
________
Yamaha SR500
 
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tbtc

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It doesn't. HS2 is about WCML services at this point, ECML replacement services won't come until later, if any of HS2 even happens.

The Pendolinos released by HS2, if it ever happens, should be redeployed to replace Voyagers on the WCML Birmingham to Scotland services and perhaps Manchester to Scotland as well, assuming those services will be available to electric traction by then. Many of them will still be working the residual WCML classic services though.


That's the bit I don't "get".

HS2 won't save *that* many Pendolinos/ 225s, and I can't see the powers that be buying a brand new set of long distance trains that will compete with HS2 either.
 

Lampshade

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Urgh, why don't they just get the old designs for the APT and erm... build it. It's all proven technology now so there should be no problems whatsoever.

The HST/225 replacement should have a power car at each end, diesel electric, with pantograph so there's none of this bi-mode nonsense. There should be between 10 and 12 unpowered coaches in between and most importantly, should be articulated.
 

LE Greys

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Urgh, why don't they just get the old designs for the APT and erm... build it. It's all proven technology now so there should be no problems whatsoever.

The HST/225 replacement should have a power car at each end, diesel electric, with pantograph so there's none of this bi-mode nonsense. There should be between 10 and 12 unpowered coaches in between and most importantly, should be articulated.

If we want to go for an older design, why not InterCity 250? After all, it was basically a Eurostar power car hooked up to a rake of MkIVs with a DVT. Failing that, why not just order a bunch of extra Regional Eurostars (perhaps a little bit narrower so they can fit properly within the loading gauge)? Couple that with the electrification of the GWML and MML and there you are (with IC225 on the MML). Finish off by doing the Aberdeen Road and on to Dyce, but leave Inverness for now and do a loco change at Perth. A 57 could probably cope with the Highland Line.

I certainly agree with the idea of an electro-diesel Voyager. It would add at least one coach per unit (preferably two) and not incur the same weight penalty as dragging an electric loco around away from the wires. I'd recommend a few extra ones for the Oxford Flyer/Cotswold Line if they electrify the GWML, and perhaps for Grand Central as well. Maybe a few straight-electric ones for East Anglia, Leeds semi-fasts and Hull Trains if they electrify. The Dellas might end up on Edinburgh/Glasgow-Inverness services, if they survived at all. The old HSTs would finally retire, with one going to the 125 Group to have Valentas put back in for 125 mph railtours. :D

We would end up with three standard Intercity trains:
IC250
IC225
Voyager/Super Voyager/Electro Voyager
 

WatcherZero

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Surely for the cost of reengineering a eurostars loading gauge, stripping out two of its designed power pickups and transformers, and presumably reducing its redundancies which are a tad excessive for a normal mainline you could design a new variant of more modern off the shelf HST design.

The A-train did make sense what with Japan operating a partly narrow gauge network a design that already would have fit UK loading gauge being far easier to widen an existing design than narrow one.
 

j0hn0

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Urgh, why don't they just get the old designs for the APT and erm... build it. It's all proven technology now so there should be no problems whatsoever.

The HST/225 replacement should have a power car at each end, diesel electric, with pantograph so there's none of this bi-mode nonsense. There should be between 10 and 12 unpowered coaches in between and most importantly, should be articulated.

Good point.

I have often wondered why, seeing as we use fixed formations, we don't use more articulation. APT had tilting articulated bogies, is it our failure in this that makes us afraid to use this technology? Is there even a UK train building company left?
 

starrymarkb

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Bombardier UK is building designs evolved from the BR-era Networkers and Turbos

Alstom were going to build articulated trains for Thameslink, but their design was rejected.
 

sprinterguy

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Yep, once again Britain's railways had the opportunity to try something a bit innovative with Alstom's articulated Thameslink trains, and they rejected it :roll:

If IEP gets cancelled, I think that we could have the HSTs with us until 2020, and the IC225s until 2030. Any new build Intercity trains, to replace current stock or to cater for increased electrification, will continue to be built in small batches for individual TOCs requirements, instead of a joined up plan of renewal that IEP would have offered. As such, I believe that if IEP is cancelled, new Intercity trains are likely to take the form of further Pendolino or Voyager style fixed formation units.

I predict that the GWML, MML and Edinburgh to Aberdeen will be electrified in the near to mid-term future. I reckon that the GWML would be capable of handling speeds of 140mph as far as Bristol (with proper investment in signalling), and as such could receive a fleet of Siemens Velaro style trains to operate the route.

I don't think that electrification beyond Perth to Inverness will be forthcoming; given the low frequency service on that route, and the particularly inclement weather the line experiences that would cause high OHLE maintenance costs.

When the MML is electrified, replacement stock for the ECML and WCML should be procured at the same time as the MML electric order. I think that these trains should consist of a Siemens Eurosprinter electric loco hauling twelve new design mark 5 carriages with a DVT at the rear. The carriages could be arranged in short articulated sets of maybe four carriages each to allow for operational flexibility in shortening or lengthening trains and to ensure that an entire twelve carriage train does not have to be removed from service when a carriage requires maintenance: So a single carriage "set" would have 3 articulated bogies under four carriages, with a conventional bogie and buffers at the outer ends of each four carriage set: The carriage sets would be built in two main variants: A "First class" set, consisting of 3 FOs and a restaurant carriage, and "Standard" sets, consisting of four SOs, so that a twelve car train would consist of three FOs, a restaurant and eight SOs.
When operating a service that is not under the wires (Crewe to Chester and Holyhead, and Edinburgh to Inverness), the Eurospinter loco would be removed from the train in exchange for a Bombardier Traxx diesel. Or alternatively, the DVT could instead be a mid range diesel loco that could propel or haul the train on non electrfied areas, or perhaps even a power cell loco if the technology can be proved successfully.

This would then free up the Pendolinos on the WCML, which could perhaps be cascaded to the Anglian main line, and offer mid distance semi fast services (say London to Preston) on the WCML and ECML routes.

MMLs' 222s would be cascaded to routes operated by 170s, which would in turn replace some of the Sprinter routes.
Urgh, why don't they just get the old designs for the APT and erm... build it. It's all proven technology now so there should be no problems whatsoever.
BR sold the active tilt technology used on the APT to the Italian company FIAT Ferrovaria when the APT project was wound up, which they used to develop there ETR 450 and ETR 470 "Pendolino" trains. This led to our very own class 390s, built by the company when it was talen over by Alstom, so, technically, we do have a descendant of the APT running in Britain already! ;) But dear lord, what I would give to travel on a production APT train instead of Branson's plastic Italian rubbish...
 

sprinterguy

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True, true, I do believe that Virgin had some say in specifying exactly what type of trains they were receiving for the West Coast though, surely? Virgin is a very strong brand, I just can't help but associate the Pendo's with that name instead of Angel Trains, I think I'm remembering a time when the trains were actually owned by the company it had written on the side...;)

Seeing as the Pendos were indeed built just round the corner from where I'm currently living p'raps I should maybe feel a little bit more moved towards them, and in actual fact after travelling on them extensively they're actually not bad! But nonetheless, I think I'd still get considerably more excited about stepping onto a production APT-S train than a Pendo.
 

Geezertronic

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Well they are not without their faults but in the main they have done a pretty good job on the WCML and have improved journey times a bit too (which is why the 90+Mk3+DVT always replaces a Pendo on the EUS-BHM run as it can just keep to the timings on that run).

Virgin probably did have a say in the internal layout configuration, I can't see them having much of a say in the design (but I am happy to be proved wrong). Same with the new 390 coaches and sets I would have thought, although a lessons learnt process probably wouldn't have gone amiss :D
 

starrymarkb

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The Pendos have SIG tilt gear - not Fiat.

I believe Virgin specified parts of the interior and a custom cab design, but other then that they are all Alstom design.
 

sprinterguy

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I meant more along the lines of Virgin having some say in the TYPE of train that was ordered, more than just the specification of the chosen Alstom design. Was the Alstom Pendolino specified as the only option for replacement WCML stock by Angel or whoever, or were other designs looked at as well? I never heard much about the tendering process for the WCML.

Fair enough on the tilt system, but nonetheless our Pendos are still in the same family as all the others, be they Italian, Czech or whatever, all constructed by FIAT, so have some sort of lineage back to the APT.
 

Failed Unit

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I meant more along the lines of Virgin having some say in the TYPE of train that was ordered, more than just the specification of the chosen Alstom design. Was the Alstom Pendolino specified as the only option for replacement WCML stock by Angel or whoever, or were other designs looked at as well? I never heard much about the tendering process for the WCML.

Fair enough on the tilt system, but nonetheless our Pendos are still in the same family as all the others, be they Italian, Czech or whatever, all constructed by FIAT, so have some sort of lineage back to the APT.

I think Virgin specified the train and the finance was decided later. I have a feeling Virgin put a tender to finance the Pendo's and Voyagers later.
 

Drsatan

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If IEP is canceled, then that would be fantastic news. The IEP project, IMO, is a big waste of money since it relies on untried technology (power cars at both ends of the train driving axles underneath the coaches), and the auxiliary diesel engine for use off the overhead wires simply takes up space and weight.

I agree with Roger Ford's suggestion that the HST/IC225 replacement should consist of a bulk order of electric locomotives, preferably an off-the-shelf European design built to keep the costs down (such as the Alstom Prima, Bombardier Traxx or Siemens Taurus) and new Mk5 design coaches as proposed for the IC250 project, albeit updated to take into account improvements in bogie design, materials, and so forth. In addition, the ex IE Mk3s (fitted with plug doors and retention toilets) which are currently being scrapped should be repatriated ASAP, regauged to standard gauge and be refurbished since this would be a cheap way of increasing capacity. The Mk3s are an excellent design, so passengers would not feel as though they are traveling in old carriages.

Since the GWML will eventually be electrified (although I suspect the next government may postpone or cancel electrification), combinations of electric locomotives and Mk5 coaches should be introduced to replace HSTs. Although by then the HSTs would be over 40 years old, due to the timelessness of their design and their reliability they could be refurbished and introduced on services currently worked by 185s or 158s, such as Cardiff-Portsmouth or Liverpool-York, pending electrification of those routes.

I believed that ex IE Mk3s could be hauled by surplus 67s or 57s, but because there don't appear to be any (unless circumstances have changed in 10-20 years time), there may be a business case to order a few passenger diesel-electric locomotives to haul them on non-electrified routes which are in need of longer trains, such as Liverpool-Norwich or even Cardiff-Portsmouth if HSTs are deemed unsuitable (to the best of my knowledge HSTs are barred from using Bursledon bridge on the Southampton-Portsmouth line, so any HSTs would have to be routed via Eastleigh), pending electrification.

IC225s cascaded from the ECML could be used on the MML if that is electrified, or even on trans-pennine services if the trans-pennine routes are electrified in time. 222s cascaded from the MML could be used on routes currently worked by 170s such as Cardiff-Nottingham, while displaced 170s could in turn displace 158s.
 

Lampshade

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Therefore... :D :?:

...it'd make no difference as the maximum speed would still only be 125mph, plus 91s have no provision for tilt despite being essentially an APT power car with a cab, plus SiG probably wouldn't make tilt gear that would work with 20 year old bogies :(
 

LE Greys

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...it'd make no difference as the maximum speed would still only be 125mph, plus 91s have no provision for tilt despite being essentially an APT power car with a cab, plus SiG probably wouldn't make tilt gear that would work with 20 year old bogies :(

I'm suggesting that they take the bogies off and fit new ones. It's not so much for speed as passenger comfort round Hatfield or Offord and on the Newcastle-Edinburgh sections. Studies have shown that drivers can tolerate a much greater cant deficiency, because they can see it coming. The Swedish X2000 locos don't tilt, and I think they have seatbelts in the cab. Do it properly and we would have 140 running, cut-price tilt and possibly TASS for Super Voyagers north of York. Chances of a scheduled 3 hr 45 fastest time to Edinburgh. MkIVs shouldn't be out of gauge when right over, so could manage without TASS. I would have added the option eight years ago with the Mallard upgrades.
 

Dai.

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I've seen this round a couple places,

What is IEP?

As I would like to join in this discussion but have no idea what it is.
 

LE Greys

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I've seen this round a couple places,

What is IEP?

As I would like to join in this discussion but have no idea what it is.

It eats acronyms like a Royal Scot eats coal! :D

HST-2 (obviously)
HS2 (a bit confusing)
IEP (Intercity Express Programme)
SET (Super Express Train)

There's a hypothesis that anything with 'advanced' in the name will be a failure, and anything with 'super' in the name will be useless unless the basic spec one is good.
 

TGV

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About 4 or 5 years ago I posted on another forum a design I created of a possible HST2 - this was before "IEP" entered the battle of the acronyms.

First of all I'm not a huge supporter of it. I'm on the side of high speed lines and therefore rolling stock for classic lines should be simple - either diesel OR electric. However, I drew up the concept - including cross sections - of a possible HST2 if this "hybrid" thing was what was to be chosen.

I will try and dig out the diagrams to be posted later but essentially it consisted of a power car similar to the current HST layout (but not appearance) with a large diesel engine, fuel tank located underneath the main frame between the bogies and all the usual power equipment inside and rheostatic brake stacks. The first carriage would have a pantograph on the roof at the power car end. This would feed down into a transformer and IGBT controlled system (keeping it small and light) located in part of the carriage next to the power car (think of the first carriage of a eurostar), and would ultimately feed power to the same traction motors fitted in the adjacent power car. This is all mirrored at the other end of the train. Just as in a Eurostar, the leading bogie of the first carriages next to the power car, and the power cars themselves would be a traditional design, but the rest of the set is articulated/jacobs bogies. Finally - the whole thing has capacity to tilt using derived technology from pendolinos and voyagers. Set length I had notionally drawn as 8 carriages between 2 power cars - Two first class, restaurant/shop car (which still has seating in part of it's length) and then 5 standard class cars. Seating capacity was 404.

This way you're only carting round ONE set of traction motors and they're always being used - not towing a dead set around. When running under diesel, the only things not being used would be the pantograph and transformer (plus it's associated power electronics) - which is no different to any AC/DC units when on 3rd rail. When running under wires, the diesel units can either be switched off totally saving fuel and everything is run from the wires, or they could be left running on a low setting for ETH or "hotel power". The advantage of this last method is that it keeps the AC electrical "compartment" at the ends of each end carriage even more compact as the same technology is already fitted to the alternator/chopper units on the end of the engine. There is no distributed power because articulated bogies give superior passenger comfort and we all know how much we hate underfloor diesels and motors whining away.

The design would be 125mph rated - no point in anything faster as I saw this as a backup to TGV's that would run on the High Speed Lines.

I hope I've explained it enough for you to see in your minds. I will try and find the diagrams I drew as you know what they say about a picture and a thousand words...
 

sprinterguy

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On the mark 4 carriage topic, the carriages were designed to be able to be retrofitted with a tilt system at a future point. The bogies were apparently designed in such a way that enough space was left to accomodate a tilt mechanism if one was ever fitted. The class 91s are basically a driving variant of the APT power cars, and have no need to tilt as the reasons for installing tilt systems on train is principally for passenger comfort, so that corners can be taken faster without reducing passenger comfort. With just the driver in the locomotive, tilt is not necessary. The mark 4s were also built with a tilting train profile, which would allow them to tilt up to either 4 or 6 degrees, I can't remember which, and still be within the loading gauge.

I also believe that a Eurostar style power car arrangement would be a better way forward for the Super Express Train, with distributed power to the carriage bogie nearest the power car at each end to increase adhesion, and articulation within the carriage rake.

Everybody is making a big thing of the "Hybrid" nature of IEP. The idea is also for single mode electric or diesel variants to be built. I really like the IEP idea, and am quite disappointed that it has been potentially shelved. I liked the fact that the trains would be flexible, with either five carriage sets or ten carriage sets depending on the nature of the services they are specified for. I think that it would be a really good opportunity to have one standardised, squadron fleet of Intercity trains throughout the country, which would reduce maintenance costs and promote a good uniform image to the public. And it would be a fantastic opportunity to be able to cascade some really good quality trains to lesser routes (for example Voyagers to Turbo routes and Turbos onto Sprinter routes, so that Sprinters replace Pacers), which would negate a costly renewal of regional fleets.
The one thing that has always put me off is the necessity for the bi-mode trains to lug around a big diesel engine whilst under the wires, but how about this for a thought: For the ECML London to Aberdeen/Inverness trains, why not utilise one electric 5 car train and one bi-mode 5 car train from London to Edinburgh, and then split the train with just the bi-mode unit going north on diesel power. If both units were operating off the OHLE from London to Edinburgh, this would reduce the negative effects that the weight of the diesel engine would have on acceleration and general performance by upping the power to weight ratio (assuming the electric sets are lighter).

I would have specified articulation (seeing as they are fixed formation units) and 140mph capability for sure though, I think there's some missed opportunities there. If/when HS2 is built the 140mph capability would be useful if the trains were to fit in as semi-fast services around the super high speed services, like the Javelins on HS1.
 
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