If electronic road pricing is adopted, should it include a tachograph like feature?

[Bletchleyite]

Mostly on the EV thread it's come up a number of times that people don't want an EV because it prevents them driving a very long journey non-stop, and I've proposed that that might not actually be an entirely bad thing, as people driving a long way non-stop is a recipe for accidents caused by fatigue.

For those driving large vehicles professionally, tachographs have dealt with that problem to an extent by mandating maximum hours and minimum breaks, albeit at a fairly minimal level and well below what is generally considered sensible of a break of some sort every 2 hours or so.

Others have contended that if a couple are driving together they can do the journey with only a short stop to swap over, which is a valid point.

So, would a good solution to this, in the event of road pricing tech being deployed, to incorporate tachograph type technology into all motor vehicles, to prevent people driving dangerous hours in personal or light work vehicles (couriers are particularly bad for this)? Such tech could apply an automatic "penalty fare"* in the case of limits being exceeded (which would still allow you to make such a journey at a high price in emergency rather than being stranded in the middle of nowhere, say).

* Perhaps a very high per-mile rate, allowing a drive to a nearby hotel but making a much further one prohibitive.

Note, this thread isn't intended for a debate about the merits or disadvantages of electronic road pricing - it has as an initial premise that electronic road pricing was adopted.

 

[SynthD]

To learn from what’s already done, how do professional industry tachographs cope with two drivers, eg a married couple? For a school trip to France we had two drivers for one coach.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To learn from what’s already done, how do professional industry tachographs cope with two drivers, eg a married couple? For a school trip to France we had two drivers for one coach.

Each driver has a smartcard they insert when they are driving (years ago it was a paper disc).

 

[87 027]

Given the time it would take for implementation to feed through to mass adoption, and parallel developments in autonomous vehicle and driver assistance technologies, would you propose absolute limits for drivers in all circumstances or would allowance be given for periods when the vehicle was self-driving with less cognitive load on the driver?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given the time it would take for implementation to feed through to mass adoption, and parallel developments in autonomous vehicle and driver assistance technologies, would you propose absolute limits for drivers in all circumstances or would allowance be given for periods when the vehicle was self-driving with less cognitive load on the driver?

If self-driving is genuinely that, i.e. no driver input required at all (so you can e.g. read a book or play with your phone), then I would suggest that is equivalent to being a passenger - indeed, it is being a passenger.

If any driver input is required then that would count as driving, as there is more of a risk of boredom when less input is required.

 

[87 027]

I don't think anyone would disagree that people shouldn't drive when tired, any more than they shouldn't drive if their fitness to do so is impaired for other reasons.

Whilst the OP has expressed a personal and quite reasonable view that it is sensible to take a break of unspecified length approximately every 2 hours, this is considerably more frequent than the current rules for commercial drivers:

- EU rules require a break of 45 minutes every 4.5 hours (www.gov.uk/drivers-hours/eu-rules)
- GB domestic rules for vehicles not required to follow the EU rules stipulate a break of 30 minutes every 5.5 hours (www.gov.uk/drivers-hours/gb-domestic-rules) - is this a Brexit bonus?

If we are going to use technology to implement general enforcement of penalties or sanctions if a break of x length isn't taken at y interval, as happens for commercial drivers, then clarity is needed on what the values for 'x' and 'y' are going to be. I would expect these to be determined based an informed and evidence-based debate.

 

[Nym]

The last paragraph there will never happen with our government.
There is also a lot, lot more variance in the endurance of non professional drivers. For example, my mother in law can't really drive more than an hour without a 30-45min break.
At the other end of the scale, I'll generally do any drive I need to in the UK up to around 350-400 miles with nothing but brew and "bio-breaks". Usually 4 to 5 hour stints if I need to.

So where would one call a "reasonable" limit? And given this and to be honest any UK government, how can we ever arrive at one?

 

[87 027]

There is also a lot, lot more variance in the endurance of non professional drivers.

And herein lies the problem - where do you define, for the purposes of determining sanctions and penalties, the 'Goldilocks' level for the average private motorist (i.e. not too much and not too little)?

Perhaps in time there could be some clever AI/machine learning driven solution which can learn an individual driver's habits and pick up on signs of fatigue with some sort of real time alerting. But we are getting into a whole new level of sophistication here!

 

[Stewart2887]

How much will that cost to implement and who will pay? Sure my wife and I swap regularly on long drives, sometimes the engine doesnt stop. Car dos detect if it thinks driver is tired but its wildly inaccurate

 

[Bletchleyite]

How much will that cost to implement and who will pay?

Not an awful lot if, as per the subject of the thread, it is just additional software on top of an existing electronic road pricing setup.

Without electronic road pricing it is probably not feasible, but the thread is predicated on electronic road pricing being implemented.

 

[87 027]

it is just additional software on top of an existing electronic road pricing setup.

I don't think that's the key question though. The salient point is what business rules the software is following and how those have been determined.

Edit: OP expresses a view that drivers should take a break every 2 hours. UK gov believes drivers should not have an enforced break until after 5.5 hours (a further slackening of the EU limit of 4.5 hours). That is a very significant divergence of views. What limit will the proposed software enforce?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think that's the key question though. The salient point is what business rules the software is following and how those have been determined.

Edit: OP expresses a view that drivers should take a break every 2 hours. UK gov believes drivers should not have an enforced break until after 5.5 hours (a further slackening of the EU limit of 4.5 hours). That is a very significant divergence of views. What limit will the proposed software enforce?

I would suggest it should enforce the same rules as are enforced on lorry drivers, the main purpose being to prevent people driving for very long hours. EV range is likely to force frequent breaks for the foreseeable.

Many, many people are driving cars and light vans in a way that isn't in compliance with the lorry or coach rules, often for commercial gain. As a minimum I strongly believe the existing tacho hours rules should apply to all driving for reward (i.e. anything for which it would be tax deductible if expenses were claimed), but ideally just apply it to all driving full stop.

 

[jon0844]

Mostly on the EV thread it's come up a number of times that people don't want an EV because it prevents them driving a very long journey non-stop, and I've proposed that that might not actually be an entirely bad thing, as people driving a long way non-stop is a recipe for accidents caused by fatigue.

For those driving large vehicles professionally, tachographs have dealt with that problem to an extent by mandating maximum hours and minimum breaks, albeit at a fairly minimal level and well below what is generally considered sensible of a break of some sort every 2 hours or so.

Others have contended that if a couple are driving together they can do the journey with only a short stop to swap over, which is a valid point.

So, would a good solution to this, in the event of road pricing tech being deployed, to incorporate tachograph type technology into all motor vehicles, to prevent people driving dangerous hours in personal or light work vehicles (couriers are particularly bad for this)? Such tech could apply an automatic "penalty fare"* in the case of limits being exceeded (which would still allow you to make such a journey at a high price in emergency rather than being stranded in the middle of nowhere, say).

* Perhaps a very high per-mile rate, allowing a drive to a nearby hotel but making a much further one prohibitive.

Note, this thread isn't intended for a debate about the merits or disadvantages of electronic road pricing - it has as an initial premise that electronic road pricing was adopted.

There will soon be EVs that can charge to 80% in 18 minutes or so, which is probably the time you'd park up, plug in, go for a comfort break, grab a coffee or stretch your legs, and return ready to resume.

Assuming there are enough charging points, I think people will prefer this type of rest break than having to queue up for fuel at a pump (and I don't mean like now with the fuel issues - just normal filling up).

I doubt the Government will want to go down the road (sic) of trying to keep track of who is driving an EV or for how long/miles in any period of time.

There are probably various ways to implement a per-mile charge, but surely they'd just seek to place some sort of tax on the charging points. I don't know what they may do for home charging points, but perhaps a levy on the equipment installed for those who aren't going to want to simply charge over a regular socket (with 20+ hours recharge time).

 

[Nym]

18 minutes is a very long comfort break. Anything more than 5mins loss on ETA is a significant loss for me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

18 minutes is a very long comfort break. Anything more than 5mins loss on ETA is a significant loss for me.

I'd suggest you need to plan more slack into your journeys; unexpected traffic can cause much longer delay if e.g. an accident occurs in front of you, and "driving against the clock" is itself quite dangerous because the priority ceases to be safety.

 

[jon0844]

18 minutes is a very long comfort break. Anything more than 5mins loss on ETA is a significant loss for me.

If you've driven 250-300 miles since the last charge, you want to be back on the road in just 5 minutes?

I am sure we'll get closer to 10 minutes charging in the next 5 or 10 years, or increase the range to 400+ miles.

Perhaps there will be a need for regulation in normal cars after all, as I can see a definite safety concern if 5 minutes will throw you off track. You'd be lucky to refuel a car in that time.

 

[Randomer]

Regarding your point about couriers; the upcoming changes to the requirements for operators licensing and digital tachographs for all commercial goods carrying vehicles (i.e. those 3.5 tonnes which currently don't require them) within the EU are already being talked about by the Driving Standard Agency and the various traffic commissioners. As such it seems one of the biggest areas of concern, being dangerously long hours for light goods vehicle drivers will be addressed even without any move towards road pricing.

The outlook seems to be that the UK will probably follow the EU in having a similar if probably not identical system, if memory serves full implementation in the EU is within the next 3 years. End state will probably be a requirement for operators licensing and digital tachographs, probably with different drivers hours rules, but probably with a new lower level of operators license and transport manager training to take into account how long and expensive the process currently is. It is causing some interesting discussions as to what level will be captured e.g. it will quite obviously cover couriers or delivery drivers but does it cover a plumber carrying a new sink basin from a supplier to a job he is working on?

It will be interesting to see if the EU moves towards all vehicles being driven for commercial purposes requiring digital tachographs not just those transporting goods, which was a proposal that was rejected in the current legislation. At that point nearly every new vehicle will potentially have an easy retrofit to allow digital tachographs so a transition over would be much easier. I personally don't see it being very likely though.

My fundamental point is that more and more vehicles are moving towards having digital tachographs fitted and with no connection to road pricing schemes at all. From a safety point of view it is probably a good thing road pricing or not.

 

[Nym]

I'd suggest you need to plan more slack into your journeys; unexpected traffic can cause much longer delay if e.g. an accident occurs in front of you, and "driving against the clock" is itself quite dangerous because the priority ceases to be safety.

Its not driving against the clock causing that. More that I know how much time is lost to stops.

 

[Factotum]

Its not driving against the clock causing that. More that I know how much time is lost to stops.

Are there any statistics on how many accidents are caused bt driving for longer than two hours on a stretch?

 

[Nym]

Are there any statistics on how many accidents are caused bt driving for longer than two hours on a stretch?

I doubt it.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

If I'm driving to work in rush hour, it can take me 2 hours early in the morning. Not feasible for me to stop for a break.

If a tachograph was ever fitted to my vehicle; I am stuck in rush hour traffic and the system detects I have been driving for too long, I certainly would not be happy to be stung with a "penalty fare" I would refuse to pay it