If a Class 442 was to be kept for charter work...

[RobShipway]

Ah, but... <Insert comments about 3rd rail world speed record here>

That is why I think that SWR should allow at least a driving trailer for said unit to go to the NRM.

Even that's not much of a record. The only country with mainline 3rd rail running (i.e. 100mph) manages to get one of it's highest powered multiple units to do a fast run, just 9mph above normal linespeed. If one of the LNR Class 350/1 sets had shoes put back on (and any current software bars on DC running removed), it could do 110mph in service (PW dept permitting on 3rd rail).

Rather than add shoes to the class 350 units, could you not just update the software on class 444's or class 450 units, as they are all desiro units, just built at different times.

interesting to note that most emus that have been preserved, most havnt been restored and and are sat around, only a small number have been, and not to mane line working condition, so it seems at the moment theres no real love for anything that isnt a steam train

only the demu thumper and the brighton bell and the tc set i think are the closest things mainline rail worthy, is a shame as there is a gap in the market for that sort of thing, a small gap but still, for me being on that tc set hauled by some 73s was more interesting that a steam or diesel tour...mabey im alone in thinking that

Having lived down in Bournemouth between 1991 - 1996, it was fun to both see and be sat on a class 442 unit being hauled down to Weymouth as there has been issues with the 3rd rail setup between Bournemouth to Weymouth. Other than 73003 at Swindon & Cricklade Railway, 73129 at Gloucestershire & Warwickshire Railway and a few other 73's, I am not sure that the changes to any of the others that they would be haul a class 442 unit anymore.

 

[swt_passenger]

That is why I think that SWR should allow at least a driving trailer for said unit to go to the NRM.

Academic point if NRM don’t actually want one…

Rather than add shoes to the class 350 units, could you not just update the software on class 444's or class 450 units, as they are all desiro units, just built at different times.

No you couldn’t, because there were also changes to the motors required to enable 110 mph running…

 

[JonathanH]

the tc set

Even with the Swanage TC set, it has been out of everyday service for 30 years and is costing a lot to restore.

A day on a preserved railway where a 33/1 and TC ran one diagram and a 73 and a 442 ran on the other would be an interesting spectacle but it isn't going to happen on a regular basis. How does the 442 earn its keep the rest of the time?

It is a shame that there isn't a place for air braked stock (such as a 442) to replace 'translation' of mainline locomotives at diesel galas but it just isn't a viable year round proposition.

 

[RobShipway]

Academic point if NRM don’t actually want one…

No you couldn’t, because there were also changes to the motors required to enable 110 mph running…

Ah, okay. But it would have to be a 350/1 unit that is equipped as any of the rest of the class 350's where not equipped with being able to run on 3rd rail.

 

[CBlue]

That is why I think that SWR should allow at least a driving trailer for said unit to go to the NRM.

My comment was very much tongue in cheek in that regard. Being an obscure record holder isn't enough for something like the NRM to get involved, IMO. The class was a compromise built on the cheap with fancy seats chucked in to fool people into thinking they were better than they were.

 

[JonathanH]

The class was a compromise built on the cheap with fancy seats chucked in to fool people into thinking they were better than they were.

I don't think they would have had less of a following with 2+2 Ashbourne seats like a 156. The windows might have seemed a bit high up though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My comment was very much tongue in cheek in that regard. Being an obscure record holder isn't enough for something like the NRM to get involved, IMO. The class was a compromise built on the cheap with fancy seats chucked in to fool people into thinking they were better than they were.

OK, they had used traction equipment, but I'd not do them down that much. They were everything the Mk3 hauled and HST coach should have been.

 

[RobShipway]

My comment was very much tongue in cheek in that regard. Being an obscure record holder isn't enough for something like the NRM to get involved, IMO. The class was a compromise built on the cheap with fancy seats chucked in to fool people into thinking they were better than they were.

I don't think they would have had less of a following with 2+2 Ashbourne seats like a 156. The windows might have seemed a bit high up though.

As was the HST trains built on the cheap, just to get bums on seats as they knew that the APT trains needed many more years of development before they could enter service.

OK, they had used traction equipment, but I'd not do them down that much. They were everything the Mk3 hauled and HST coach should have been.

Quite the Mk3 coaches for class 442's where everything that the HST trains should have been from introduction. Yet, you have a class 43 power car at the NRM! Okay, that power car is suppose to hold the world record for the fastest diesel locomotive in the world, which yes is a greater thing to obtain than the world's fastest 3rd rail EMU. But it achieved that record in parallel with another class 43 power car.

 

[VEP3417]

some good points made for and against

i was talking about the LU tc set that does tours now and again, was going to go on the last one but it got cancelled due to the pandemic ect
i went on the lu tc set when it was running at swanage which was great

 

[D365]

But it achieved that record in parallel with another class 43 power car.

In series, if you want to be technical

I think we just have to accept the fact that, other than 313201, all British Rail second-gen EMUs will either be converted to bi-modes, or scrapped.

 

[Western Sunset]

But 43102 was the leading one, so if only one was preserved, I'd go for that one as that was where the driver was sitting at the controls. 43102 was in Swallow (like the current repaint), whilst the rear power car (43159) was in Executive livery. So if (at some point) that was also preserved, it'd make a good livery contrast too. But I digress...

I still feel the 3rd rail world speed record is of historic significance. Pity the NRM (or whatever it labels itself nowadays) doesn't appear to.

 

[Bevan Price]

Like the HSTs, the 442s have provided useful service for many years, but they are getting old, past their best, and the time has come for them to be replaced.
As for use as charter sets - I don't see the point, they cannot go anywhere off the 3rd rail network under their own power. And there is surely only a limited market for charter trains confined within that 3rd rail network.

 

[D6130]

As for use as charter sets - I don't see the point, they cannot go anywhere off the 3rd rail network under their own power. And there is surely only a limited market for charter trains confined within that 3rd rail network.

Seasonal evening dining specials Hunt's Cross-Liverpool Central-Southport?

 

[londonteacher]

Why don't we replace the Scotrail HSTs with the 442s hauled by Class 43s? Easily the most sensible option!

 

[JonathanH]

Why don't we replace the Scotrail HSTs with the 442s hauled by Class 43s? Easily the most sensible option!

Huh? What is your thinking and what is sensible about it? The HST power cars can't supply the 442s with electric train supply.

 

[londonteacher]

Huh? What is your thinking and what is sensible about it? The HST power cars can't supply the 442s with electric train supply.

I think it was quite clearly sarcasm!

442s should be scrapped. We are too sentimental in the UK of old rubbish!

 

[AM9]

I think it was quite clearly sarcasm!

442s should be scrapped. We are too sentimental in the UK of old rubbish!

Agreed. Sentimentality about 'old' is the essence of most rail enthusiasts, but some can't discriminate between classic and scrap.

 

[Nym]

Huh? What is your thinking and what is sensible about it? The HST power cars can't supply the 442s with electric train supply.

Nothing can supply the 442s Electric Train Supply. Because it's been removed(!)

 

[XAM2175]

I think it was quite clearly sarcasm!

I'd like to introduce you to Poe's law:
Poe's law is an adage of Internet culture stating that, without a clear indicator of the author's intent, it is impossible to create a parody of extreme views such that it cannot be mistaken by some readers for a sincere expression of the views being parodied.

 

[RobShipway]

In series, if you want to be technical

I think we just have to accept the fact that, other than 313201, all British Rail second-gen EMUs will either be converted to bi-modes, or scrapped.

Class 313201 last Sunday on it's way into Bishopstone station. I can understand that this EMU is being kept as I have stated before, due to the fact that it was the dual voltage EMU on British tracks.

But you could also argue that the class 442, is the first specifically built third rail express train other than those used on an Airport shuttle service.

 

[CBlue]

But you could also argue that the class 442, is the first specifically built third rail express train other than those used on an Airport shuttle service.

Playing full devils advocate here...


The Class 309 was the first 100mph EMU under BR, are any of them preserved for that reason?

 

[JKF]

In series, if you want to be technical

I think we just have to accept the fact that, other than 313201, all British Rail second-gen EMUs will either be converted to bi-modes, or scrapped.

Isn’t one of the scottish PEP-based units being preserved too?

I’ve always thought of the 313s as quite iconic, they were pictured a lot in the mid-late 70s in publicity materials and train books, along with the HST as the definitive ‘modern’ vehicle of this era.

 

[JonathanH]

Isn’t one of the scottish PEP-based units being preserved too?

Not preserved - 314209 is a test bed for a hydrogen conversion.

There is a group trying to preserve a 315.

 

[D365]

Not preserved - 314209 is a test bed for a hydrogen conversion.

Inferred in my comment about conversion to bi-mode

 

[AM9]

But you could also argue that the class 442, is the first specifically built third rail express train other than those used on an Airport shuttle service.

It wasn't though. The first purpose built express for 3rd rail was the SR's
4COR/4RES/4BUF/4GRI, the 4CORs survived to be class 404s. They were introduced on the Portsmouth direct line in 1937, and were capable of 75mph, which we aren't untypical for express services in the '30s.
Next came the class 410/411s. These were 90mph units of standard MkI construction (like the class 309s) with a slightly lower top speed of 90mph - again typical of express speeds in the '50/60s before the WCML was electrified.
So the 442s weren't that special when viewed as part of the big picture.

 

[bramling]

In series, if you want to be technical

I think we just have to accept the fact that, other than 313201, all British Rail second-gen EMUs will either be converted to bi-modes, or scrapped.

Must admit I do find this slightly depressing, especially given how many Pacers have been preserved.

I do realise a Pacer is several orders of magnitude more flexible, but even so.

 

[D6130]

The first purpose built express for 3rd rail was the SR's
4COR/4RES/4BUF/4GRI, the 4CORs survived to be class 404s.

Even earlier than those were the Brighton Line 6PUL/6PAN/5BEL units of 1932-33....also with a theoretical maximum speed of 75mph - but initially with no speedometers fitted!

 

[AM9]

Even earlier than those were the Brighton Line 6PUL/6PAN/5BEL units of 1932-33....also with a theoretical maximum speed of 75mph - but initially with no speedometers fitted!

OK fair enough, but I specifically didn't include those because they were a very small class rather than general express rolling stock, and unlike the 404s and 410s, not through gangwayed as the 442s are.

 

[D6130]

OK fair enough, but I specifically didn't include those because they were a very small class rather than general express rolling stock, and unlike the 404s and 410s, not through gangwayed as the 442s are.

Granted there were only three 5BEL units, but there were twenty 6PUL units and another twenty 6PAN units....i.e. twenty twelve car trains to cover the non-all Pullman Victoria/London Bridge-Brighton/Littlehampton/Eastbourne/Ore fast services. True, they were not gangwayed between sets, so you had to make sure that you were in the correct portion from London....or face a sprint along the platform at Hove, Haywards Heath or Eastbourne, as appropriate!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

But you could also argue that the class 442, is the first specifically built third rail express train other than those used on an Airport shuttle service.

Which Airport shuttle stock do you have in mind as the exception? Gatwick Express started with modified 4-VEP units, which were replaced by 73s+Mk2s with a driving motor luggage van on the other end: all of which were drafted in from elsewhere.
The first purpose-built stock for GatEx were the 460s (which funnily enough are also likely to be discarded in the coming months... perhaps the NRM will save one of those seeing as they were such a success, and marked such a milestone! )