IET running on diesel

[coppercapped]

It still isn't anywhere near where most people want to go compared with Euston etc. The main business/financial centres are a long way east with little sign of that changing, and people don't generally fly to Heathrow to go shopping at Westfield.

Two things:

1. Are you suggesting Paddington should be moved east?
2. Can you quantify the shortfall in the traffic over the years due to its, in your eyes, less than optimum location?

Without supporting evidence I can only assume that you are pontificating again.

The station has been in the same place for 183 years so people have got used to its location — pre-Covid it seemed quite busy so it must be doing something right.

Maybe many people travelling long distances in from the west have no great interest in getting to the financial centres? The City grew up attracting clerks from the inner London suburbs along the Great Eastern to Liverpool Street and the SER/LCDR and LBSCR routes to London Bridge and Cannon Street; there never were large flows travelling to and from work on the GW main line [1]— the countryside was largely pastoral west of Slough. The 'intensive' local GW service essentially petered out here.

The more intensive local service operations out as far as Reading didn't really start until the early 1960s when Fiennes re-organised the service pattern from being a random collection of calling points and frequencies. Until then the outer suburban service was mainly in the hands of the large Prairie tanks of the 61XX class and (IIRC) at the most two or three an hour arrived at or departed from Reading in the peaks.

[1]Of course there was local traffic into the City via the GW's branch to Hammersmith, what became the Hammersmith and City line, and this was electrified quite early. In this case the location of Paddington was irrelevant, the Hammersmith branch was competing with the District.

 

[TPO]

Accuracy will also depend on how accurately the GPS device can calculate its position, which in turn depends on how many satellites it can 'see' (I think). Even sat here in my house, my phone thinks it's several metres away from where it actually is.

GPS needs a clear sky view. Sat in a tin box it will only see a few satellites. Some buildings are also effective radio black holes. My house has thick stone walls and no radio (Mobile, VHF)radio gets inside.
so accurate speed by GPS in a train is difficult. balancing your phone on the windowsill may help, but not a lot.

A professional GPS speed measuring device such as Racelogic Vbox and its derivatives use Doppler shift within the GPS signal primarily to calculate speed - rather than position. If the antenna is located in the centre of the window with a good view of the sky, the results are surprisingly accurate - possibly more accurate than a train speedo - where the train speedo is reliant on a specific wheel diameter. These devices rely on an external antenna the size of a matchbox and some sort of ground plane. Or a ground plane antenna that is the size of a 10cm plate.
Accuracy can be affected by obstacles such as tall buildings, deep cuttings, heavy foliage. But in the main the results are surprisingly accurate with good equipment.

The accuracy of any phone GPS app relies on the accuracy of the GPS chipset and how the app has been designed to read the GPS data.

Phone apps such as Harry's GPS Lap timer try to use the doppler shift. Best results are obtained using an external bluetooth GPS device. The Dual XGPS 160 is one of the better external devices as it refreshes at 10hz and uses both GPS and Glonass signals - increasing the reliability of the signal and ensuring more satellites are in view at any one time.

Whereas most phones internal GPS refresh at only 1 hz and the antenna is compromised as it has to fit within the limited space of a device primarily used for making calls and sending receiving internet data. Therefore the antenna size within most mobile phones is quite small and not suited to decent GPS reception, but okay for hiking etc - but not accurate speed measurement.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jan 2022 ==


I understood from various GWR drivers on this and other forums that they would drive more cautiously to avoid ATP braking interventions - which could occur at close to 125mph on trains with worn wheelsets.

All of this.

Receivors for signals from GNSS (global navigation satellite systems) vary considerably.

The system on my big commercial drone (M300) can pick up the GPS, GLONASS, Galileo and Beidou constellations. Need at least 14 satellites in view for return to home and decent stabilisation, once you are seeing 21 or more the locating is down to 50cm or less. Not unusual to have 24-27 satellites in view. To improve on that you combine the satellite signals with a RTK base station to get down to a cm or so. (There's some fancy electronics can improve the satellite positioning resolution too I think.). There's also a minimum number of satellites required from one constellation to get the basic locating.

My big drone carries 2 decent size GNSS antenna on the top. There are apps to check expected visible number of satellites in a given location at a given time, plus an estimate of the likelihood of interference from solar storm activity.

The right set up gives you accurate speed and position info- although in drones the data from the compass and IMU (inertial measurement unit, basically a solid state gyro) is combined with the satellite signals to achieve this.

You could certainly set up a satellite system on a train for accurate and precise speed measurement which also self-diagnosed if losing precision. But why would one want to when the speedo is in reality sufficient in practical terms, and location to within a quarter of a mile or so is adequate for passenger info.

TPO

 

[Railperf]

But why would one want to when the speedo is in reality sufficient in practical terms, and location to within a quarter of a mile or so is adequate for passenger info.

Because passengers who are interested in how fast the train is going have no access to the train speedo. Quarter mile posts are often obscured by vegetation and hard to see at high speeds.

Granted - in some countries the TOC's do have a passenger information screen that displays the speed of the train and its current location - either permanently - or intermittently - which can be helpful, but even that is dependent on the data source and can be 'laggy'.

I found Trenitalia speed display to be quite slow at updating!

 

[Ken H]

Do all trains leave the depot with fuel tanks topped up? For an IEP on an electric only diagram is a lot of weight to lug around all day. And a big hit on cashflow.
But if they are not full what if it's suddenly decided to send one without full tanks to Penzance? Or one breaks it's pan and needs to run on Diesel?

And diesel siting unused in a tank will grow 'diesel bug' in the layer between the diesel and the inevitable bit of water. That will clog the fuel lines and filters.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Two things:

1. Are you suggesting Paddington should be moved east?
2. Can you quantify the shortfall in the traffic over the years due to its, in your eyes, less than optimum location?

Without supporting evidence I can only assume that you are pontificating again.

The station has been in the same place for 183 years so people have got used to its location — pre-Covid it seemed quite busy so it must be doing something right.

Maybe many people travelling long distances in from the west have no great interest in getting to the financial centres? The City grew up attracting clerks from the inner London suburbs along the Great Eastern to Liverpool Street and the SER/LCDR and LBSCR routes to London Bridge and Cannon Street; there never were large flows travelling to and from work on the GW main line [1]— the countryside was largely pastoral west of Slough. The 'intensive' local GW service essentially petered out here.

The more intensive local service operations out as far as Reading didn't really start until the early 1960s when Fiennes re-organised the service pattern from being a random collection of calling points and frequencies. Until then the outer suburban service was mainly in the hands of the large Prairie tanks of the 61XX class and (IIRC) at the most two or three an hour arrived at or departed from Reading in the peaks.

[1]Of course there was local traffic into the City via the GW's branch to Hammersmith, what became the Hammersmith and City line, and this was electrified quite early. In this case the location of Paddington was irrelevant, the Hammersmith branch was competing with the District.

I know in your eyes the Western can do no wrong, but literally none of the above is relevant to Heathrow Express, which is what I was talking about. A fast airport express is only useful if it goes fast to where you are going. Crossrail will win out because it goes to more places people want to go to without changing to it, the Tube or a taxi and thus losing any time gain.

 

[Annetts key]

Granted - in some countries the TOC's do have a passenger information screen that displays the speed of the train and its current location - either permanently - or intermittently - which can be helpful, but even that is dependent on the data source and can be 'laggy'.

The GWR HST services that at one time had a video entertainment system fitted to the seat backs, could display a moving map and the current speed. I don’t know how accurate the speed information was, but the moving map was somewhat erratic at times.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jan 2022 ==

I know in your eyes the Western can do no wrong, but literally none of the above is relevant to Heathrow Express, which is what I was talking about. A fast airport express is only useful if it goes fast to where you are going. Crossrail will win out because it goes to more places people want to go to without changing to it, the Tube or a taxi and thus losing any time gain.

Err, I would have thought that the vast majority of Heathrow airport customers are currently U.K. residents. So it’s going to be more like “from somewhere near home to the airport”.

Also the “catchment” area for Heathrow airport is rather large. So it’s more likely that customers will be using a variety of services, as they will be coming from all over the place. Unless you actually have some firm evidence based figures…

Will some people use Crossrail as part of their journey to the airport, yes. But if you are coming from somewhere that Crossrail does not serve, people may continue to use the existing services.

Oh, and of course West is BEST

 

[800001]

Do all trains leave the depot with fuel tanks topped up? For an IEP on an electric only diagram is a lot of weight to lug around all day. And a big hit on cashflow.
But if they are not full what if it's suddenly decided to send one without full tanks to Penzance? Or one breaks it's pan and needs to run on Diesel?

And diesel siting unused in a tank will grow 'diesel bug' in the layer between the diesel and the inevitable bit of water. That will clog the fuel lines and filters.

Yes, they would be full of fuel, when the units arrive on depot all units will be filled up with fuel.

someone mentioned about the amount of units with engines out.
Some depots, are running extremely low on staffing some nights due to Covid, on the East coast at Bounds Green, some nights only 4 staff have been on, instead of about 20, so repairs are taking longer to rectify.

 

[D365]

In the perfect world the HeX services should really have been 125mph EMU's - especially as the Class 800's now have equal acceleration to the 387's.

Perhaps, but there were 387s spare and it will be possible to convert them back to a regular spec if HEx is ever withdrawn.

 

[cactustwirly]

I know in your eyes the Western can do no wrong, but literally none of the above is relevant to Heathrow Express, which is what I was talking about. A fast airport express is only useful if it goes fast to where you are going. Crossrail will win out because it goes to more places people want to go to without changing to it, the Tube or a taxi and thus losing any time gain.

Euston is not really any more convenient than Paddington.
Especially for the West End.

Paddington also has the Bakerloo line to Oxford/Piccadilly circus

 

[coppercapped]

I know in your eyes the Western can do no wrong, but literally none of the above is relevant to Heathrow Express, which is what I was talking about. A fast airport express is only useful if it goes fast to where you are going. Crossrail will win out because it goes to more places people want to go to without changing to it, the Tube or a taxi and thus losing any time gain.

My apologies, I had missed the point that you were referring to Heathrow Express in particular. In the case of those travellers arriving at Heathrow and whose immediate destination is along the Central Line corridor or is one of the financial areas you are right, Crossrail will certainly take some of this market. However as it will seem slower than the non-stop HEx, the trains calling five or six times on the way to the central core, we'll have to wait to see how the passenger split between the service groups pans out.

For all those using Heathrow who do not live or work in the Crossrail corridor, not a lot will change.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jan 2022 ==

Do all trains leave the depot with fuel tanks topped up? For an IEP on an electric only diagram is a lot of weight to lug around all day. And a big hit on cashflow.
But if they are not full what if it's suddenly decided to send one without full tanks to Penzance? Or one breaks it's pan and needs to run on Diesel?

And diesel siting unused in a tank will grow 'diesel bug' in the layer between the diesel and the inevitable bit of water. That will clog the fuel lines and filters.

The extra weight isn't so much as you might think. I cannot find quickly any figures concerning the fuel capacity of these trains, but typically main line mixed traffic locomotives used to have a tank of around 1,500 litres. (The Class 66 freight locomotives have 6,400 litre tanks and the Class 68s have a 5000 litre tank, but these are special cases).

Diesel fuel has a specific gravity of about 0.85, so 1,500 litres would weigh around a tonne and a quarter. (1500 litres of water weigh a tonne and a half). This means that the weight of all the diesel fuel on a five coach Class 800 set would be less than four tonnes. Compared to the weight of the train at around 250 tonnes, this is negligible.

 

[class ep-09]

My apologies, I had missed the point that you were referring to Heathrow Express in particular. In the case of those travellers arriving at Heathrow and whose immediate destination is along the Central Line corridor or is one of the financial areas you are right, Crossrail will certainly take some of this market. However as it will seem slower than the non-stop HEx, the trains calling five or six times on the way to the central core, we'll have to wait to see how the passenger split between the service groups pans out.

For all those using Heathrow who do not live or work in the Crossrail corridor, not a lot will change.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jan 2022 ==


The extra weight isn't so much as you might think. I cannot find quickly any figures concerning the fuel capacity of these trains, but typically main line mixed traffic locomotives used to have a tank of around 1,500 litres. (The Class 66 freight locomotives have 6,400 litre tanks and the Class 68s have a 5000 litre tank, but these are special cases).

Diesel fuel has a specific gravity of about 0.85, so 1,500 litres would weigh around a tonne and a quarter. (1500 litres of water weigh a tonne and a half). This means that the weight of all the diesel fuel on a five coach Class 800 set would be less than four tonnes. Compared to the weight of the train at around 250 tonnes, this is negligible.

And to add , 60 passengers averaging 70kg each, will weight as much as all fuel on 9 cars 8xx ( 5 tanks) .

 

[hexagon789]

And to add , 60 passengers averaging 70kg each, will weight as much as all fuel on 9 cars 8xx ( 5 tanks) .

Given most airlines assume 85kg nowadays I'd use that method (11 stone seems rather light... )

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given most airlines assume 85kg nowadays I'd use that method (11 stone seems rather light... )

Lifts often use 65 if children are likely to be in the mix as they drag it down.

 

[Tester]

Lifts often use 65 if children are likely to be in the mix as they drag it down.

Surely they do the opposite of drag it down

 

[class ep-09]

Given most airlines assume 85kg nowadays I'd use that method (11 stone seems rather light... )

Double that for US )

 

[FGWHST43009]

An interesting thing to compare would be the diesel performance of an 800 and an 802. Also I think the engines on the 9-car 800s may rated at 940hp.

 

[Railperf]

An interesting thing to compare would be the diesel performance of an 800 and an 802. Also I think the engines on the 9-car 800s may rated at 940hp.

We have done that, and there was a marked difference between Class 800 and 802 engine performance when they were first introduced. Since then, the two fleets performance has been 'equalised' as reported on this forum and where all engines are running - that is the case 'on the road'. Nine-car sets are slightly slower than 5-cars as they have a slightly lower power to weight ratio.
LNER sets still run at the original Class 800 lower engine rating.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jan 2022 ==

As an example of the difference between current and previous IET performance - the early spec 800's took around 7 mins to reach 9 miles from a start at @ 107mph. The latest spec seems to achieve the same distance around 20 seconds faster @ 110mph. For comparison an HST would take around the same time as a current IET but would now be travelling faster @ 120mph.

Electric only Class 801 gets to the same distance in around 5 min 20 seconds @124/5 mph
From what i can see a Pendolino is around 15 to 20 secs slower!

For comparison I recorded a HST on one power car taking close to 9 mins @90mph!

 

[FGWHST43009]

Is there already a forum about the IET's capability of changing from electric to diesel and vice versa while on the move?

 

[Railperf]

I see 1L80 has suffered a delay at Swindon today and timings suggest it may be on diesel only ?

 

[NoOnesFool]

I see 1L80 has suffered a delay at Swindon today and timings suggest it may be on diesel only ?

A bird struck the pantograph and caused sparks resulting in electrical conductor damage.

 

[Mintona]

I see 1L80 has suffered a delay at Swindon today and timings suggest it may be on diesel only ?

1L80 was most definitely not diesel only today. The wait at Swindon was caused by the delay to 1L23, awaiting the relieving driver.

 

[Wychwood93]

A bird struck the pantograph and caused sparks resulting in electrical conductor damage.

A long stop at Swindon for 1L80.

Quite a bit of late running around that time:
Realtime Trains - Departures from Swindon

 

[Horizon22]

Is there already a forum about the IET's capability of changing from electric to diesel and vice versa while on the move?

Not sure there's a thread but it can certainly be done at designated changeover points and also whilst stationary at other locations.

 

[cambsy]

Horizon22, there are designated places, where IET’s, Change from Diesel to electric, and vv. if memory correct, they are area, where OHLE, is specially strengthened, to cope with the rising and falling of pantograph, so overhead wires aren’t damaged, Moreton cutting, near Didcot Parkway, is one such location, mainly for Oxford and Cotswolds-Paddington trains and vv, there’s one, at or near Newbury, then various others.

 

[JN114]

No special strengthening, but tougher maintenance regime and more regular inspections

 

[Horizon22]

Horizon22, there are designated places, where IET’s, Change from Diesel to electric, and vv. if memory correct, they are area, where OHLE, is specially strengthened, to cope with the rising and falling of pantograph, so overhead wires aren’t damaged, Moreton cutting, near Didcot Parkway, is one such location, mainly for Oxford and Cotswolds-Paddington trains and vv, there’s one, at or near Newbury, then various others.

Indeed there are. I was just mentioning that a) it can be done and b) there's not a (recent) thread regarding it.

 

[Bikeman78]

I travelled on 1E06 from York to Doncaster on Saturday. It was formed 800208+801111. For some reason it was running on diesel. The performance can best be described as sedate; it got to 90 mph and took 29 minutes. By comparison 91109 took 22 minutes in the down direction, with a brief stop outside York, and 25 minutes in the up direction, with a two minute stop outside Doncaster.

I was surprised that a class 801 was diagrammed to a train that was diverted via March. Is that normal? Four engines on a 10 coach train seems a bit optimistic.

Realtime Trains | 1E06 0648 Glasgow Central to London Kings Cross | 15/01/2022

Real-time train running information for 1E06 0648 departure from Glasgow Central to London Kings Cross on 15/01/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[43055]

I travelled on 1E06 from York to Doncaster on Saturday. It was formed 800208+801111. For some reason it was running on diesel. The performance can best be described as sedate; it got to 90 mph and took 29 minutes. By comparison 91109 took 22 minutes in the down direction, with a brief stop outside York, and 25 minutes in the up direction, with a two minute stop outside Doncaster.

I was surprised that a class 801 was diagrammed to a train that was diverted via March. Is that normal? Four engines on a 10 coach train seems a bit optimistic.

Realtime Trains | 1E06 0648 Glasgow Central to London Kings Cross | 15/01/2022

Real-time train running information for 1E06 0648 departure from Glasgow Central to London Kings Cross on 15/01/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

800+801 combinations are common for LNER.

 

[800001]

I travelled on 1E06 from York to Doncaster on Saturday. It was formed 800208+801111. For some reason it was running on diesel. The performance can best be described as sedate; it got to 90 mph and took 29 minutes. By comparison 91109 took 22 minutes in the down direction, with a brief stop outside York, and 25 minutes in the up direction, with a two minute stop outside Doncaster.

I was surprised that a class 801 was diagrammed to a train that was diverted via March. Is that normal? Four engines on a 10 coach train seems a bit optimistic.

Realtime Trains | 1E06 0648 Glasgow Central to London Kings Cross | 15/01/2022

Real-time train running information for 1E06 0648 departure from Glasgow Central to London Kings Cross on 15/01/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Issues with Potteric Car feeder at the weekend, so, bimodes operated in diesel mode from just north of Doncaster to near Retford, makes sense operationally for this to change over whilst static at York station.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jan 2022 ==

Issues with Potteric Car feeder at the weekend, so, bimodes operated in diesel mode from just north of Doncaster to near Retford, makes sense operationally for this to change over whilst static at York station.

And it would be slower than normal, as 800208 is dragged 5 dead coaches behind it. As the 801 would only be providing hotel power to lights toilets etc.

 

[Bikeman78]

Issues with Potteric Car feeder at the weekend, so, bimodes operated in diesel mode from just north of Doncaster to near Retford, makes sense operationally for this to change over whilst static at York station.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jan 2022 ==


And it would be slower than normal, as 800208 is dragged 5 dead coaches behind it. As the 801 would only be providing hotel power to lights toilets etc.

Thanks for the info. I'm not sure I agree about dropping the pans at York. If it had run on electric initially, it would have got to 125mph and kept time. Does LNER do changeovers on the move? Given your last sentence, I'm even more surprised than an 801 was booked along the non electrified line from Peterborough to Ely.