IET rumours....

[Bletchleyite]

Most GWR overcrowding was classically Reading commuters, who if they were that bothered would have got a seat on the stopping services.

 

[skyhigh]

Surely the best solution is for GWR to buy more 5 car units. Then they can near guarantee doubled up units when needed.

However that means more cabs full of very expensive equipment and more services with non walk-through sets compared to 'simply' purchasing new intermediate coaches to extend the existing sets.

 

[JonathanH]

Most GWR overcrowding was classically Reading commuters, who if they were that bothered would have got a seat on the stopping services.

Prior to March 2020 that would have led to passengers at the intermediate stations between London and Reading being more likely to have to stand. It isn't just a case of Reading commuters crowding the long distance services - some of the capacity is for them (and passengers travelling west from Reading).

Sending 7-car units (instead of 9-car or 10-car formations) out of Paddington in the evening peak doesn't appear to be a great use of track capacity (but I haven't been to see whether 7-car units would be more appropriate with the lower post-March 2020 passenger loadings).

 

[JamesRowden]

Most GWR overcrowding was classically Reading commuters, who if they were that bothered would have got a seat on the stopping services.

It was actually a combination of:

• Weekday peaks
• Saturday mornings in late HST days into London at about 10AM at Reading because the longer distance travellers had already taken all the seats before the Reading non-commuters got on. Just as busy as getting the 1800 Paddington-Bristol service from Paddington in those days. The real answer to get a seat was to leave Reading at 9AM on a Saturday, rather than 10AM, when the trains were quiet.
• The other times of overcrowding were when a 2/3 car turbo was running Sunday services and all Evening Weekend services to Oxford/Cotswolds (once when 6 out of use carriages were connected to the train).

On the probably 5 times I travelled on a fast train between Reading and Paddington during the peak in late HST days, I only failed to get a seat once.

Standing for 30 minutes is also much better than catching a slow service which is less frequent which takes 30 minutes longer to get to the destination.

West Country services seem to be slightly busier west of Reading than they are East.

The main easy to solve problem in late HST days was not providing enough capacity to leisure passengers. For which the solution was to run more/longer trains. A combination of Reading Station remodeling and longer more frequent peak trains should have solved the peak capacity issues. The new IETs/387s and higher frequency off-peak timetable probably solved the off-peak capacity problem (except possibly Sundays where engineering works limit the frequency, but the trains should now longer). Cut the frequency and length of off-peak services by enough and the off-peak overcowding problem would surely be recreated since demand for leisure journeys are not so affected as demand for commuter journeys.

Create a whole load of 7-car sets (which cannot form part of a 9/10 car set) and one is creating the situation, compared with having 5/10 car sets, where higher off-peak and peak frequencies would be required to limit overcrowding.

So 7-Car IETs probably do not have a place on express services in/out of Paddington. Perhaps somewhere else.

 

[CptCharlee]

Seems DfT messed up when it ordered so many 5 car units. They should have ordered more 9 cars. Why they thought GWR operated like fast commuter services. Yet LNER got more 9 cars which has worked better. Really doesn't make sense.

I always look back and think maybe it would have been better if the proposal to split GWR devon and cornwall services into its own franchise. Least then you would have has a fleet of 9 car IET for Penzance/Plymouth and a buffet car . At least devon and cornwall would have a greater influence on its franchisee.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I always look back and think maybe it would have been better if the proposal to split GWR devon and cornwall services into its own franchise. Least then you would have has a fleet of 9 car IET for Penzance/Plymouth and a buffet car . At least devon and cornwall would have a greater influence on its franchisee.

As has been mentioned many times over regardless of who ran the franchise you wouldn’t have got 9 car IETs with Buffet Cars for Cornwall:

DfT required the specification of the 802s to be the same as the 800s.

There was only funding for Cornish Half Hourly if the London services were 5 cars in Cornwall (it saved 2 sets overall).

 

[irish_rail]

Sounds very expensive and money the railway doesn’t have at the moment!

Agree, the 5 car order for the wofe route has proved an expensive mistake. The 10s where always going to cost a fortune staffing wise, especially in terms of additional drivers for all the fiddly ecs moves and additional catering staff for each portion. More 5s most definitely isn't the way forward!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Mar 2022 ==

I have however found my Paddington train at Penzance has been cancelled due to one of the HSTs failing overnight…

Too be fair that still occurs now even with lots of 5 car sets floating about.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Mar 2022 ==

However that means more cabs full of very expensive equipment and more services with non walk-through sets compared to 'simply' purchasing new intermediate coaches to extend the existing sets.

Correct. Some new build coaches to extend some 5s is a far cheaper idea both long and short term.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Mar 2022 ==

Seems DfT messed up when it ordered so many 5 car units. They should have ordered more 9 cars. Why they thought GWR operated like fast commuter services. Yet LNER got more 9 cars which has worked better. Really doesn't make sense.

I always look back and think maybe it would have been better if the proposal to split GWR devon and cornwall services into its own franchise. Least then you would have has a fleet of 9 car IET for Penzance/Plymouth and a buffet car . At least devon and cornwall would have a greater influence on its franchisee.

Ironically had the Devon and Cornwall franchise been allowed to come to fruition, it would have inherited ONLY 5 car sets and no 9s, so we can probably breathe a sigh of relief that didn't happen!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Mar 2022 ==

There was only funding for Cornish Half Hourly if the London services were 5 cars in Cornwall (it saved 2 sets overoverall

Problem with cornish half hourly is people are wised up to catching the faster London trains and not the stopping HSTs. I suspect this is why most of the London trains in the up direction are timetabled to sit at every station for 2 to 3 minutes to attempt to make the journey time to Plymouth on them less attractive.

 

[Techniquest]

Regarding that point on Penzance to Plymouth being deliberately timed to make them less appealing to the masses, now that sounds way too much like an urban myth!

 

[irish_rail]

Regarding that point on Penzance to Plymouth being deliberately timed to make them less appealing to the masses, now that sounds way too much like an urban myth!

Why else does it take nearly 2 hours to do pz to ply when it could be done in nearly 1 hr 30????

 

[Techniquest]

Why else does it take nearly 2 hours to do pz to ply when it could be done in nearly 1 hr 30????

I couldn't tell you, I'm not a local (I'm up in the more northerly parts of the GWR empire!) but I cannot honestly imagine the timetable has such long stops to persuade people to use the GTi HSTs, instead of the IETs. I might actually have a look at RTT actually for tomorrow, just out of interest!

EDIT: A quick look at two Paddington services in the morning, and the 0740 Penzance to Cardiff Central (the Paddington services being the one before and the one after the GTi HST) has revealed no real difference in the schedules. Yes there are some station stops of 2 and even 3 minutes in the Paddington services, but it is absolutely not all of them! Why they're there, I honestly could not tell you, I don't know the area well enough to even hazard a guess. What I am convinced of though is that there will be there for very good reason, and not to encourage people to use the GTi HSTs instead.

 

[Bluejays]

Cant really think on what routes the 7s would be any benefit. Cardiff and Exeter maybe. Diagramming would need to be spot on to get any benefit.

There'd also be a big imbalance of first class spaces between 7s, unless they turn the large first class into a composite coach

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Why else does it take nearly 2 hours to do pz to ply when it could be done in nearly 1 hr 30????

1hr 30 is undeliverable if your schedule is compliant with Network Rail Train Planning Rules (TPR) which mandates things such as Minimum Dwell times and Allowances.

The Up Hind (05.05 ex PNZ) has the least number of stops (misses out St Erth and Cambourne for example), has MINIMUM mandated dwells and no allowances above the minimums and that takes 1hr 43 from Penzance to Plymouth. Add in the St Erth and Cambourne you are back up to around 1hr 50 which isn’t much less than the standard daytime Paddington service.

 

[irish_rail]

1hr 30 is undeliverable if your schedule is compliant with Network Rail Train Planning Rules (TPR) which mandates things such as Minimum Dwell times and Allowances.

The Up Hind (05.05 ex PNZ) has the least number of stops (misses out St Erth and Cambourne for example), has MINIMUM mandated dwells and no allowances above the minimums and that takes 1hr 43 from Penzance to Plymouth. Add in the St Erth and Cambourne you are back up to around 1hr 50 which isn’t much less than the standard daytime Paddington service.

Yes but the timings are all way to slack, trust me. IF all engines are running the timings will be easily beaten. Even with one engine out the timings can be beaten, and I don't drive overly "hard". Its almost as if they are the same timings from HST 2+8 days. Someone needs to actually come down to Cornwall and see what the IETs are capable of down here, as their abilities are very much being muzzled for some reason.

 

[MattRat]

Yes but the timings are all way to slack, trust me. IF all engines are running the timings will be easily beaten. Even with one engine out the timings can be beaten, and I don't drive overly "hard". Its almost as if they are the same timings from HST 2+8 days. Someone needs to actually come down to Cornwall and see what the IETs are capable of down here, as their abilities are very much being muzzled for some reason.

Perhaps they are the exact same timings. It'd be the easiest thing for management to do. Not saying it's right, of course, Devon and Cornwall deserve better where possible, but I also know how most managers tend to think.