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IET rumours....

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supervc-10

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A sensible world would build some new 9s (or even 7s) and send the 5s to XC or even TPE who want more 80x, but it's not a sensible world :)
This is definitely what *should* be what's done.

Extending some (most?) of the 5-cars to 9-car, to reduce the 10-car running, would be a good idea. I'd also argue that any IETs sent to XC should also be extended to maybe 7 cars.
 
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Bletchleyite

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For example, I'd be tempted to argue that XC need something more than just five coach trains for their services (which is what you'd be cascading to them, if you had your way)

5.221: 26 1st, 236 Std, total 262
5.800: 36 1st, 290 Std, total 326 (and in a far lower density layout) - 64 more

Thus, the 800 is equivalent to a 6 car 221 - and vastly superior in many ways. Pretty good for XC, I reckon.

Convert the galley to a smaller one as per the TPE 802/2s: 24 1st, 318 Std, total 342, or 80 more than the Voyager. That's very close to being equivalent to a 7 car Voyager, given how inefficient the Voyagers are for space.
 

skyhigh

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Because it is thinking on a holistic basis, e.g. not having mixed age coaches in a set.
Does that really matter that much? See classes 333 and 345 for examples where coaches have been added to lengthen units already in service.
 

irish_rail

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This is definitely what *should* be what's done.

Extending some (most?) of the 5-cars to 9-car, to reduce the 10-car running, would be a good idea. I'd also argue that any IETs sent to XC should also be extended to maybe 7 cars.
I agree that extending some 5s to 9s with new build vehicles would be desirable however where would the money come from. Money will go to whom shouts loudest, and that's why it'll be the metro cities of the north that will get any available money for new stock.
I also agree that 7s for XC would be better as 5s wouldn't cut it on a number of services and 10s seems overkill.
 

Horizon22

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12-car 387 is somewhat shorter than a 12-car IET. I'm not sure where a 12-car IET formation would fit.

It is indeed, just wanted to check it was IETs we were discussing as per the thread.
 

Mintona

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OK, so I've heard the following messroom gossip today, not sure how accurate it is, but apparently its come from quite high up.

GWR are looking at reducing a number of 9 car sets to 7 car sets by removing 2 coaches and placing the 2 removed coaches into a number of 5 car sets to make up a fleet of 7 car sets, so overall a reduction in number of 9s and 5s but a creation of 7s.

Now before all the usual people poo poo this, it has apparently come from a pretty decent source, however, we must always take what we hear in the messroom with a pinch of salt....

Anyone able to elaborate?

I was told this was ‘definitely about to happen’ in Paddington messroom in early 2019.

Can’t see which trains you’d want to take a 9 car off.
 

irish_rail

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I was told this was ‘definitely about to happen’ in Paddington messroom in early 2019.

Can’t see which trains you’d want to take a 9 car off.
I imagine they'd force the west country go back to 10s (ie pairs of 5s on everything), to make up the shortfall of 9 cars, but that's just my hunch. Everywhere east of Taunton thus benefitting from being generally a 9 or 7, with some 5s.
 

Mintona

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I imagine they'd force the west country go back to 10s (ie pairs of 5s on everything), to make up the shortfall of 9 cars, but that's just my hunch. Everywhere east of Taunton thus benefitting from being generally a 9 or 7, with some 5s.

There are definitely some trains that could do with being more than 5 without necessarily needing 9 or 10. But I can’t see many that would benefit from having two coaches removed.

I think the main reason that this is unlikely is that Stoke Gifford and North Pole are all geared up towards 9 and 10 car trains. I don’t think there’d be the depot capacity for it.
 

Horizon22

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There are definitely some trains that could do with being more than 5 without necessarily needing 9 or 10. But I can’t see many that would benefit from having two coaches removed.

I think the main reason that this is unlikely is that Stoke Gifford and North Pole are all geared up towards 9 and 10 car trains. I don’t think there’d be the depot capacity for it.

Yeah there’s a few. Immediately comes to mind are the Worcester / Hereford services with a big Slough (Windsor) & Oxford flow, but petering out beyond.

The depots are definitely not built for this and you’d have a pretty inefficient use of space, especially on arrival roads.
 

Techniquest

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My view here is what happens when the world changes again, and someone decides 5 car trains are all we actually need? Away with the 9ers and 7ers, it'll all be 5ers.

An unlikely situation, granted, but let's say we roll with it, and have nothing but 5ers. The depots are all reconfigured at great expense, diagrams changed, platform workings altered and all that, then a world event arises and the ultimate decision is made to go all over to 5ers and 10ers only.

Another expensive round of changes would have to happen. It is unlikely such a world event would happen, certainly in the lifetime of these trains, but then who actually thought we'd have the world event we did have arise 2 years ago?

I say leave the IETs as they are, all the costs and efforts to reform them just don't make sense. Surely providing more capacity is a good thing? I'm certainly not ready to return to overcrowded, short-formed trains. We have enough of that on TfW, we don't want it on GWR or, indeed, elsewhere!
 

irish_rail

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I'm certainly not ready to return to overcrowded, short-formed trains. We have enough of that on TfW, we don't want it on GWR or, indeed, elsewhere!
And thats the trouble on GWR, too many short forms due to too many 5 car sets! LNER where lucky they got a decent balance between 9s and 5s whilst GWR got the sh**y end of the stick with a ridiculous number of 5s. I've lost count of the amount of times I've had a 5 vice 9, (or more likely 5 vice 10).
 

Techniquest

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And thats the trouble on GWR, too many short forms due to too many 5 car sets! LNER where lucky they got a decent balance between 9s and 5s whilst GWR got the sh**y end of the stick with a ridiculous number of 5s. I've lost count of the amount of times I've had a 5 vice 9, (or more likely 5 vice 10).

I must be lucky then, I don't remember ever having a short formed train. Well, not on GWR. I have once on LNER, last autumn, which was incredibly awkward. 5 versus 10 was not ideal whatsoever, especially for my first LNER experience and I've not been back with them since. Except for 3 single station leaps with my red pen, but even then I just can't get on with them, no doubt permanently ruined by that first experience!

I honestly don't see how making a load of 5ers in 7ers will help in most situations. We may not be in a perfect situation with the fleet we have, but we have it and need to adjust.

Easier for me, granted, as I don't need to use the trains in Devon and Cornwall in the height of summer, and my travel on GWR is not often long-haul and is often with alternatives.
 

HamworthyGoods

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And thats the trouble on GWR, too many short forms due to too many 5 car sets! LNER where lucky they got a decent balance between 9s and 5s whilst GWR got the sh**y end of the stick with a ridiculous number of 5s. I've lost count of the amount of times I've had a 5 vice 9, (or more likely 5 vice 10).

Just remember if you’ve 5v9 or 5v10 you’ve a train. Chances are if you’ve an all 9 car fleet when something goes wrong you can’t recover the service so easily and you end up with 0v9 on one working, ie CANCELLED as more regularly happens on LNER. Be careful what you wish for half a train is better than no train I think you’ll agree….
 

Pete_uk

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I've had a Cheltenham - Paddington 9 car replacing a unavailable 5 car in the middle of the day. I only did Gloucester to Stroud but I think there were about 3 to 5 people in each carriage!

Anyway, the only way I could see longer units being created is if there was a specific route that requires them. As others have said everything has been set up for lengths of 5, 9 or 10s.
 

Mitchell Hurd

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I must be lucky then, I don't remember ever having a short formed train. Well, not on GWR. I have once on LNER, last autumn, which was incredibly awkward. 5 versus 10 was not ideal whatsoever, especially for my first LNER experience and I've not been back with them since. Except for 3 single station leaps with my red pen, but even then I just can't get on with them, no doubt permanently ruined by that first experience!

I honestly don't see how making a load of 5ers in 7ers will help in most situations. We may not be in a perfect situation with the fleet we have, but we have it and need to adjust.

Easier for me, granted, as I don't need to use the trains in Devon and Cornwall in the height of summer, and my travel on GWR is not often long-haul and is often with alternatives.
In my opinion, 2 more 88-seat coaches for each 5-car IET should be considered but perhaps leave about say 15-20 IET's as 5 coaches to displace Castle sets. 58 you'd need which would take a lot less longer than a whole new train.

If there's enough left over - send some IET's to CrossCountry!
 

Techniquest

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In my opinion, 2 more 88-seat coaches for each 5-car IET should be considered but perhaps leave about say 15-20 IET's as 5 coaches to displace Castle sets. 58 you'd need which would take a lot less longer than a whole new train.

If there's enough left over - send some IET's to CrossCountry!

I like the concept of IETs displacing HSTs, although of course I do like the GTi HSTs as well, from a financial point of view. I still don't agree with making the 5ers into 7ers, even though there are a handful of services between Hereford/Worcester and London that could definitely take advantage of that extra space. My journey on the 0643 Hereford-Paddington last week could have certainly used the extra 2 coaches, but until Kingham we were absolutely fine, plenty of seats. Even after Oxford, there were still a number of seats going in coach C, it was certainly busy but not overwhelmingly so. So while the extra two coaches would have been welcome, from a personal space point of view, it wasn't essential.

If there's any IETs left over, I am sure there would be plenty of use in other places for them on GWR, having enough to hand over to XC just doesn't seem likely whatsoever. Let's say, for example, there's 10 left over as unlikely as that is. For one thing, the Bedwyn-Paddingtons would need to go back over to IET, but then let's say there's still 6 left for argument's sake (I don't have any fleet size figures or whatever to work with here). Before XC gets them, surely use for the IETs could be found in Devon and Cornwall, or even just in the Thames Valley. Point being that XC should have no claim to them whatsoever, even though I'm sure they would be a welcome fit with the operator. Sending them there, well yes it would be good but to make it a more sensible prospect then in my eyes having a micro-fleet would be silly, you'd be better off ordering a new batch of IETs to replace the 220s and/or 221s completely.

If I was a betting man, I'd have 50p on GWR not ordering any more coaches/moving formations around in the next year. 1p on it never happening, but that's a bit of a bold statement!
 

LNW-GW Joint

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This thread reads like BR Intercity circa 1980s, deciding how to distribute shiny new BR-owned HSTs around its wider network rather than being concentrated on the GWML/ECML, making sure the MML, XC and eventually WCML got a share.
Aren't folk forgetting that most of the 80x are not in TOC (or GBR) ownership and belong to the manufacturer for the next 25-odd years?
The various fleets have different specifications and maintenance regimes, so you can't just switch vehicles around, "because you can".
New 125mph electric trains might not be Hitachi 80x either, any bids will have to go to open tender.
Maybe FirstGroup's collective fleet of 802s could be reconfigured, but that's about the limit.
 

irish_rail

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Just remember if you’ve 5v9 or 5v10 you’ve a train. Chances are if you’ve an all 9 car fleet when something goes wrong you can’t recover the service so easily and you end up with 0v9 on one working, ie CANCELLED as more regularly happens on LNER. Be careful what you wish for half a train is better than no train I think you’ll agree….
Yeah the thing is the trains would still be prioritised to the busiest routes. So yes, they might perhaps have to cancel a Banbury or something, but the major routes to Bristol, Swansea and Plymouth would very unlikely see cancellations, they would just shuffle the sets about to ensure the busiest route still got a train. In HST days this was always the case, I never remember my train on the Wofe route being cancelled due to no available set, something would always be found (ie the early morning Paignton to Padd may be caped, but this was always pretty dead anyway for much of the way. ....overall passengers would be better off with a greater number of 9s.
 

HamworthyGoods

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Yeah the thing is the trains would still be prioritised to the busiest routes. So yes, they might perhaps have to cancel a Banbury or something, but the major routes to Bristol, Swansea and Plymouth would very unlikely see cancellations, they would just shuffle the sets about to ensure the busiest route still got a train. In HST days this was always the case, I never remember my train on the Wofe route being cancelled due to no available set, something would always be found (ie the early morning Paignton to Padd may be caped, but this was always pretty dead anyway for much of the way. ....overall passengers would be better off with a greater number of 9s.

I have however found my Paddington train at Penzance has been cancelled due to one of the HSTs failing overnight…
 

QSK19

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Be careful what you wish for half a train is better than no train I think you’ll agree….
Yep, what us folk in EMR-world are very accustomed to! I do, though, have some doubts over whether 33 Auroras is actually enough - on paper, that number is sufficient to run around half the services as ten cars; but the reality may be very different (eg 21x 360s is theoretically more than sufficient for the Connect services, however the various ongoing issues are proving otherwise; and as for the Regional services, let’s not even go there!).
 

MattRat

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Surely the best solution is for GWR to buy more 5 car units. Then they can near guarantee doubled up units when needed. Maybe even combine it with a 5 car order to replace Castle HSTs while they're at it.
 

HamworthyGoods

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When does it ever have money? Either we invest in the railway now, or never, as it'll end up collapsing in on itself soon if nothing is done.

The treasury has made it quite clear at the moment it isn’t going to increase funding to the railways. For many people the cost of living issues/rises are higher up the agenda for now. GWR has enough IETs to deliver the service currently needed.
 

MattRat

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The treasury has made it quite clear at the moment it isn’t going to increase funding to the railways. For many people the cost of living issues/rises are higher up the agenda for now. GWR has enough IETs to deliver the service currently needed.
And yet politicians are finding no issues in increasing their bank accounts, and the complaints about overcrowding are clear to see. Something has to change, this isn't right.
 

Techniquest

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Sounds very expensive and money the railway doesn’t have at the moment!

Indeed, I was of similar thinking when reading the relevant post. Great idea, don't get me wrong, investing now is a good idea for the future, before as a nation we decide that we want more IETs but the production line shuts down.

OK, so the factories won't soon run out of orders, so that's not a concern for any time soon, but it is still something to think about.

The treasury has made it quite clear at the moment it isn’t going to increase funding to the railways. For many people the cost of living issues/rises are higher up the agenda for now. GWR has enough IETs to deliver the service currently needed.

This is a valid point, the cost of living is getting a touchy subject for many of us. I've had to dial back my own spending, as much as it pains me to do so, as the food shopping alone is getting expensive. Unnecessary purchases, such as maps I may never use for just one example, well they're going out of the window. If it means good food or poor food but a complete collection of maps (for example) then the good food will always win.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

And yet politicians are finding no issues in increasing their bank accounts, and the complaints about overcrowding are clear to see. Something has to change, this isn't right.

This post could easily have been made in 2019. Things needed to change then, and we had a pandemic which changed it all for us. We don't seem to be learning our lessons though, do we?
 

HamworthyGoods

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And yet politicians are finding no issues in increasing their bank accounts, and the complaints about overcrowding are clear to see. Something has to change, this isn't right.

Is there actually lots of overcrowding on GWR IET services? Not seen this reported anywhere!
 

Techniquest

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Is there actually lots of overcrowding on GWR IET services? Not seen this reported anywhere!

It doesn't happen much, outside of times of disruption, from what I've been told. The 1734 Paddington to Hereford, when I did it in November, was very busy but still had seats spare. Granted, I was in coach A but moved to coach B (as I had a lengthy call to make, so needed out of A) after Reading when lots of passengers disembarked.

That's a fairly key peak time train, by Oxford and Charlbury it emptied out quite a bit. By Moreton-in-Marsh, while still fairly busy, there were loads of seats and this was an 802/0.

I do wonder what said train is like, now there's no legal restrictions?
 
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