IEP & Thameslink

[sprinterguy]

Why on earth would the 365 have needed a full refurbishment when they are just over 20yrs old? You simply do not do that level of work on a new train. In fact I'd argue the point they don't need much changing as they are brilliant units for what they do, they just need some tlc.

"Half life" refurbishments are usually undertaken on rolling stock after fifteen years in service, and sometimes refreshes or refurbs are undertaken after as little as 10. 20 years old does not constitute a "new" train, if you waited much longer to undertake the first refurbishment then it wouldn't be cost effective for the probable length of life the trains had remaining!

Plus as others have said they'll be even older than this by the time the Thameslink programme is complete, and if they were were to hypothetically be relocated elsewhere (which I also don't believe that there's a great chance of) then it would be the best opportunity to refurbish the 365s to bring them up to modern standards of interior specification (Making them fully DDA compliant if they presently fall short in any areas) and passenger expectations, and also to ensure that they are best matched to any new role they are expected to fulfil.

 

[TGV]

Just to reiterate - a train's life is usually in the order of 30 to 35 years. In some cases they are required to go on longer but at some point in those 30-35 years, a mid life overhaul or refurb is very common. Some trains need it more than others from the point of view of repairing damage or a worn-out fleet, but in most cases, it is to ensure the next 15 to 20 years of running have some mitigation against known failures which are more understood after the first 15 to 20 years of running. This can also be used as an opportunity to fit new/improved technology that has been introduced since the units were built.

If they didn't have some form of overhaul then the reliability and availability would slowly get worse and worse until at some point it will likely fall off a cliff face and you'll end up with a tired fleet that isn't fit for purpose or is a financial liability.

Now, the 365s are a long way from that, but to ensure they are still as reliable as they are now in 15 to 20 years' time, it makes sense to give them a major overhaul.

Class 91s and HSTs are all getting on a bit, but they've had major work doing to them on more than one occasion to get them this far, and the 91s still have problems that will need a heavy work load planned to resolve.

 

[D365]

I thought that EMUs, on average, lasted 40 years, with an overhaul of some sort at 20. A number of SE Networkers had the a traction package replacement, but perhaps not all classes will require as much of an overhaul as others. Slightly back on topic, the entire 319 is supposed to recive a compelete interior overhaul and possibly even new AC motors, I have heard. But will the delay in the procurement of the new Thamelink fleet change the timescale for this? Will enough 319s have been refurbished in order to run an electric service when GWML and the work up north is finished? And any ideas which stock will/should leave Thameslink/Great Northern first as the new trains enter squadron service?

 

[WatcherZero]

No doesnt look like the 319's will be freed up in time, 317's have been mooted to operate early switching services in the first couple of years of electrification.

 

[sprinterguy]

And any ideas which stock will/should leave Thameslink/Great Northern first as the new trains enter squadron service?

In a linked question, is there a known timescale for the delivery of the new Thameslink trains? There is essentially no reference made as far as I can see in the Combined Thameslink-Great Northern-Southern franchise consultation to the introduction of the new trains or their operation, which would suggest that it is not presently known when they are due for delivery. The new Thameslink train fleet is something of a massive critical component of the next franchise, so it is a glaring omission for the consultation not to mention any details in outlining the specification of the franchise.

Is it the case, as I seem to recall reading somewhere, that the new Thameslink fleet will be introduced on the Thameslink route (as it is currently) first, before the Great Northern services are connected into the Thameslink network in 2018?

 

[tbtc]

No doesnt look like the 319's will be freed up in time, 317's have been mooted to operate early switching services in the first couple of years of electrification.

There have been a lot of comments on here about the Lancashire lines being wired up before the 319s are "free", but presumably some of the Thames Valley ones will be in a similar position too?

Does anyone know which will be first to be able to replace some diesels with electrics?

 

[WatcherZero]

On the topics of refurbs, you expect a refurb after 10-15 years and putting off one for longer actually reduces the life expectancy of the train after the refurb as your not addressing wearing and corrosion problems early enogh before they do permanent damage.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There have been a lot of comments on here about the Lancashire lines being wired up before the 319s are "free", but presumably some of the Thames Valley ones will be in a similar position too?

Does anyone know which will be first to be able to replace some diesels with electrics?

With the Thames Valley its not so much converting to electric services as expanding capacity by increasing frequency and length. You dont need stock to cover because your bringing in new stock anyway, you just have to face a slightly longer wait. Its also not due to be completed until 2016.

 

[D365]

In a linked question, is there a known timescale for the delivery of the new Thameslink trains? There is essentially no reference made as far as I can see in the Combined Thameslink-Great Northern-Southern franchise consultation to the introduction of the new trains or their operation, which would suggest that it is not presently known when they are due for delivery. The new Thameslink train fleet is something of a massive critical component of the next franchise, so it is a glaring omission for the consultation not to mention any details in outlining the specification of the franchise.

Is it the case, as I seem to recall reading somewhere, that the new Thameslink fleet will be introduced on the Thameslink route (as it is currently) first, before the Great Northern services are connected into the Thameslink network in 2018?

I heard somewhere on the forum that the government are looking to tie up thr contract with Siemens Mobility in the next month or so. When Siemens were announced as the winners last year, I believe that 2015 was when the fleet would begin squadron service, with all stock running by 2018 for the full 24tph service. However, 2016 for passenger introduction seems more likely now.

I assumed that the loaned 377s will be replaced first in order to move to their intended duties, but with the 377/6 batch arrivinug soon, the 319s may be released first in order to br refurbished and moved to their new routes as quickly as quickly as possible.

Yes, it's strange that the NXEMUs are not mentioned... They will be introduced first onto Thameslink, and then will take over a number GN Outer Suburban services. Not much more information is known about the stock; I'd christen it "Class 355" for various reasons or something...

At this rate, the wires will be up along the GWML and up north wih no rolling stock to use it!

 

[sprinterguy]

I heard somewhere on the forum that the government are looking to tie up thr contract with Siemens Mobility in the next month or so. When Siemens were announced as the winners last year, I believe that 2015 was when the fleet would begin squadron service, with all stock running by 2018 for the full 24tph service. However, 2016 for passenger introduction seems more likely now.

I assumed that the loaned 377s will be replaced first in order to move to their intended duties, but with the 377/6 batch arrivinug soon, the 319s may be released first in order to br refurbished and moved to their new routes as quickly as quickly as possible.

Yes, it's strange that the NXEMUs are not mentioned... They will be introduced first onto Thameslink, and then will take over a number GN Outer Suburban services. Not much more information is known about the stock; I'd christen it "Class 355" for various reasons or something...

At this rate, the wires will be up along the GWML and up north wih no rolling stock to use it!

An assumption has been made in some parts of the industry that the 377/5s will be available for redeployment from December 2017. I don't know whether that comes from some sort of official source higher up, but if it ends up being remotely accurate then it would suggest, given the timescales you have stated, that the 319s will be released first.

 

[D365]

That's what I said in the end; refurbishment work will need to be quick in order to get the 319 units running as soon as possible afterwards for testing, driver training etc.

 

[Class377/5]

I'm not trying to be arrogant here, but I do understand what the Thameslink Programme entails: in short; platform lengthening, signalling upgrades and a new fleet. This will all add to 24tph of mostly 12 carriage length by 2018 (with luck!), a great increase in capacity we will all appreciate. Services will split at St. Pancras, with 16tph to/from the MML, and 8tph to/from Finsbury Park and the ECML via the "Canal Tunnels".

Actually it's not most 12 car services. It's 8x 12 cars off peak and 16x 12 cars in peak vs 10x 8 cars all day. So th main increase in capacity for the MML is going to a mimimium 8 cars which will help. There's been some changes since the DfT went out to tender for the new Thameslink fleet, will be interesting to see how these changes will affect the final order.

I understand the upgrade was in the planning stage for a long time (basically straight after Thameslink launched? I wasn't alive then), but the tunnels were only bored in 2005 (and the low-level station box dug out) as it would be a lot more difficult doing this after the St. Pancras rebuild. The low-level platforms are in full use as I write, but the Canal Tunnels will only be fitted out and operation begun in 2018 because "The simple reason is that London Bridge station won’t be able to cope with the extra trains from the East Coast mainline until it has been rebuilt and its track upgraded..."

Actually the Thameslink 2000 original ideas where pre Thameslink launch. As for linking the BML to MML & ECML, that pre-dates the Thameslink work completely. Actually the Canal Tunnels will be in operation from mid 2015 as they are needed to allow the new class 700's to access Hornsey depot for commissioning and testing on the ECML.

No, all 365s were built exactly the same, aside from the current pickup equipment that was fitted (16 with shoegear for SE area, 25 with pantographs for GN). Obviously, all are fitted with pantographs now and no 3rd rail shoegear. The units aren't in a terrible condition (I probably was exaggerating a little), but as I have mentioned before, there are several faults which need to be rectified, and they are looking a bit scruffy on the inside.

Maybe so but without any attention is the system suitable for running? Look at the 375/6 with the pantographs that are never likely to be used as its been left. If they did move the trains over they are going to have to test every unit. Also what will replace them?

Now that I come to think of it, there surely aren't enough for peak-time GN services out of Kings Cross AND the Wimbledon Loop, are there? The latter might (MIGHT) be taken over by London Overground and run with Class 378s, however.

Post 2018 all stock running into Blackfriars is planned to be ATO compatible. So you can see the 365's there. The 700's will be the better train allowing more people onto the trains but still providing seats. Overground may take the Loop but it's unlikely until after 2020, at which point you aren't able to order any 378's. Not that the current passengers would be happy, they like seats.

The plans haven't changed that much since then, have they? And I haven't seen any difference in the information given from the Network Rail website...

Seriously the plans have changed a hell of a lot since then. For example Kings Lynn, Eastbourne services have long been thrown out. Funny that Network doesn't decide where trains run. If you read the Thameslink consultation you find that the currently under construction link between the KML and Thameslink isn't likely to actually be used as it would require a reduction in services to Cannon Street in the peak.

"Half life" refurbishments are usually undertaken on rolling stock after fifteen years in service, and sometimes refreshes or refurbs are undertaken after as little as 10. 20 years old does not constitute a "new" train, if you waited much longer to undertake the first refurbishment then it wouldn't be cost effective for the probable length of life the trains had remaining!

I understand how train refurbishment cycles go but the post I was quoting was asking why they haven't had it yet, because so far it's been to early. Only now are steps being made for the 365's to get attention.

In a linked question, is there a known timescale for the delivery of the new Thameslink trains? There is essentially no reference made as far as I can see in the Combined Thameslink-Great Northern-Southern franchise consultation to the introduction of the new trains or their operation, which would suggest that it is not presently known when they are due for delivery. The new Thameslink train fleet is something of a massive critical component of the next franchise, so it is a glaring omission for the consultation not to mention any details in outlining the specification of the franchise.

Is it the case, as I seem to recall reading somewhere, that the new Thameslink fleet will be introduced on the Thameslink route (as it is currently) first, before the Great Northern services are connected into the Thameslink network in 2018?

There is no public timescale of the introduction of the new class 700's yet. The reason why the consultation doesn't mention the new trains is because the DfT and Siemens are still talking about the contracts and until it's fully signed off its not going to be public.

What has been said us around about 24 months after contract signing (and depending on testing) tpbefre th first new train is seen in service. In this months Modern Railways it's stated the last train needs to be in service no longer than month 69 after contract signing.

The linking of GN to Thmeslink Core services is dependant in London Bridge rebuilt, earliest this can be achieved current is the May 2018 timetable change. In fact recent documents have been suggesting that the interim step up from today's 16tph to 20tph will occur then with full 24tph in late 2018.

 

[sprinterguy]

Is there any particular reason for your assumption that the new Thameslink trains will be class 700, Class 377/5? I can think of nothing that would suggest that they would be included in anything but the typical 300 series numbers allocated to AC electric, and many new third rail, EMUs.

Thanks for shedding some light on the probable timescales for delivery of the new train fleet

 

[Class377/5]

I heard somewhere on the forum that the government are looking to tie up thr contract with Siemens Mobility in the next month or so. When Siemens were announced as the winners last year, I believe that 2015 was when the fleet would begin squadron service, with all stock running by 2018 for the full 24tph service. However, 2016 for passenger introduction seems more likely now.

Offical sign off is still expected in summer. You may wish to know that originally 2015 was the date for the full introduction of the new fleet not the start date. In fact when the DfT announced it was looking for 1,200 next generation trains the plan was for the first train to be in service 01/02/2012, a date past a little while ago. As it stands the first train should be in service in late 2015 but large numbers are unlikely until 2016 as you suggested.

I assumed that the loaned 377s will be replaced first in order to move to their intended duties, but with the 377/6 batch arrivinug soon, the 319s may be released first in order to br refurbished and moved to their new routes as quickly as quickly as possible.

Latest rumours ate the 377's will go last to allow the 319's to be released north. Currently the withdrawnal of the 377's from Thameslink won't be known as the DfT is seeing what the new franchise bidder suggest first. But as the 377/6 has removed the urgent franchise need, the only thing driving the need for them to return to Southern routes (although when they go back it'll all be Thameslink so it's an internal move only) is to allow the current 1tph Croydon - Milton Keyes to go 2tph and 8 cars.

Yes, it's strange that the NXEMUs are not mentioned... They will be introduced first onto Thameslink, and then will take over a number GN Outer Suburban services. Not much more information is known about the stock; I'd christen it "Class 355" for various reasons or something...

The new trains are currently referred to as Class 700. Been confirmed to me and to NR staff on here in our jobs.

Will say not much is know publicly yet but these new trains are going to be amazing. I seriously can wait o see the public reaction to them once in service.

At this rate, the wires will be up along the GWML and up north wih no rolling stock to use it!

It's not clever.

An assumption has been made in some parts of the industry that the 377/5s will be available for redeployment from December 2017. I don't know whether that comes from some sort of official source higher up, but if it ends up being remotely accurate then it would suggest, given the timescales you have stated, that the 319s will be released first.

Currently no-one knows what's going to go first as I put above. It depends on what the winner bidder wants to do with the fleet. I'm sure the DfT would like an early release of the 319's.

 

[Firestarter]

How is 24 tph justifiable north of the Thameslink core, on the MML? One branch in the north to gazillions in the south? That's can't be right, where would the units be reversed north of London?

Ah, I know! Kings Cross is right next door to St Pancras. We could build a short pair of tunnels from the new St Pancras low-level station to the ECML outer tracks, in order to soak up the extra trains and to release capacity in Kings Cross. Quick, better get it all done before EuroStar arrives!

Yes, St Pancras low-level is linked to Finsbury Park on the outer tracks.

Or just use Tottenham north curve tunnel, no?

 

[sprinterguy]

The new trains are currently referred to as Class 700. Been confirmed to me and to NR staff on here in our jobs.

Ah, fair enough, I merely wondered. Seems an odd choice.

 

[Class377/5]

Is there any particular reason for your assumption that the new Thameslink trains will be class 700, Class 377/5? I can think of nothing that would suggest that they would be included in anything but the typical 300 series numbers allocated to AC electric, and many new third rail, EMUs.

Thanks for shedding some light on the probable timescales for delivery of the new train fleet

Well chatting to a few people we're stumped. I believe it's because these trains are very different to all that's gone before. Plus they are also the first mainline train built for the UK railway that are designed to be driven automatically from day 1.

Tho I've always thought that DV should have its own series number. What could be interesting if Siemens get the Crossrail contract then you could have 8/12 car class 700 Desiro Cities and 10 car class 345 Desiro Cities.

Or just use Tottenham north curve tunnel, no?

That would have made sense as it just needs some wires, not that expensive to do. As you could do MML straight to Hornsey in less than half the time.

 

[D365]

Strange that the Thameslink fleet is Class 700 (?) and Crossrail is Class 345, especially since the originally proposed Networker fleet for Thameslink 2000 was in the 3xx series.

And I didn't know about the existing rail link, but since the Canal Tunnels are there now... Does anyone else agree that St. Pancras low-level should have been built with 'Spanish' platforms; one for boarding trains and one for alighting on each track (Munich S-Bahn is a good example of this; three stations in the combined 60tph core are built like this).

 

[Class377/5]

Strange that the Thameslink fleet is Class 700 (?) and Crossrail is Class 345, especially since the originally proposed Networker fleet for Thameslink 2000 was in the 3xx series.

And I didn't know about the existing rail link, but since the Canal Tunnels are there now... Does anyone else agree that St. Pancras low-level should have been built with 'Spanish' platforms; one for boarding trains and one for alighting on each track (Munich S-Bahn is a good example of this; three stations in the combined 60tph core are built like this).

See my post over the numbering. Crossrail is unusual as it decided the class prior to even starting looking for trains.

St Pancras was built like it was due to the massive cost of an extra platform or two because the station above would have needed a lot more work to keep it standing.

Also having one platform for entering and one for leaving isn't th best soluation for a service like Thameslink. It has different services serving very different route so people I'll be waiting in platforms for 15mins plus on a good day. That alone means you need as wide a platform as you can.

Metros on the other hand don't work quite this way as they have far less branches and far more trains.

 

[Rhydgaled]

They'll be thirty years old by the earliest date of their possible replacement by IEPs. That's little different to the age of the 87s, mark 2s and mark 3s (The mark 3s were younger than that but have gone on to lead successful second lives elsewhere on UK rail services) when they were replaced on the West Coast by Pendolinos.

Aye, but unpowered coaching stock doesn't seem to be life-expired at 30-years old. Mark3s have been assessed to be good until 2035, and while most have been withdrawn some mark2s are still used (they don't provide the modern facilities you'd want, but they still work). I'd say mark4s could probably have just as long a life-span, especially given that they have power doors (unlike mark3s). Also, 30 years tends to be the life-expiry limit of diesel stock, electric stock (and hence, I assume, the class 91s) tends to have a 35 or 40 year lifespan I think.

Though of course it's worth noting that there are only nine passenger vehicles and that top speed of 140mph is pretty much theoretical at this point in the IC225s lives

Nine passenger vehicles, but having 11 vehicles means the cabs and crumple zones aren't taken out of the passenger vehicles. This meaning an 9-vehicle IEP replacement (even given the longer vehicles) is unlikely to provide an increase in capacity of each set, so there isn't a pressing need to replace IC225s with IEPs on capacity grounds. It would probably be cheaper, and really would increase capacity, to replace the DVTs with passenger carrying DVTs, and replace the locos, than to replace the IC225s with IEP in full.

People already get into front and rear sets on numerous services and suggesting that "London is the front set, Plymouth is the rear set" would not be particularly difficult.

Portion working is fine with sensibly-designed regional stock like class 158s, and given passengers don't seem to like changing trains I would suggest it is a good way to provide through services between a greater range of destonations.

However, it cannot work with 125mph trains because (I think) the ends need to be streamlined and so there cannot be a corridor connection between units. With a pair of 158s, if you board the wrong portion you can walk through to the right one, with 125mph trains in multiple that isn't an option. Using 5-car Voyagers or IEPs in multiple at peak times (with single 5-car units off-peak) would be alright as long as 5-cars is sufficent capacity off-peak, revenue protection and catering staff are present in both units, and all 10 cars run the full length of the service (no dropping coaches for the quieter bits, passengers might have boarded the wrong portion).

 

[jon0844]

While I get the benefits of EMUs and DMUs.. when you look at the Intercity trains, I can't help but wonder why we can't just build a shed load of carriages designed with a range of interfaces to make them totally interchangeable between different engines - which could be diesel, electric, hydrogen, filled with batteries or whatever the future holds.

Then, as the years go on, you can simply build more of these generic carriages that can be kitted out inside however you want - and easily changed if it's designed with that in mind. If any are involved in accidents, you have an easy way to replace them as you've got this design in mind for the next 10-20 years.

If you thought ahead, you could even build new coaches in the future with newer interfacing for things we haven't thought of yet, and simply make sure it's backwardly compatible.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There have been a lot of comments on here about the Lancashire lines being wired up before the 319s are "free", but presumably some of the Thames Valley ones will be in a similar position too?

Does anyone know which will be first to be able to replace some diesels with electrics?

Liverpool-Manchester/Wigan electrification is due to be completed by Dec 2014, although the train requirement is not that great (20 units?).
The Bolton/Blackpool/Stalybridge routes come 1-2 years later.
On top of that there are some DMU workings under the existing wires as it is (Alderley Edge stoppers run by Pacers for instance) because of the shortage of 323s, so Northern can use some extra EMUs immediately.

The 319s were also supposed to be refurbished and upgraded (air conditioning was mentioned by that nice Andrew Adonis), so there will have to be some time in the programme for this work.

The Thames Valley electrification to Oxford/Newbury will not be ready till Dec 2016, so there is more time to sort out the rest of the 319 fleet for that.

 

[tbtc]

Nine passenger vehicles, but having 11 vehicles means the cabs and crumple zones aren't taken out of the passenger vehicles. This meaning an 9-vehicle IEP replacement (even given the longer vehicles) is unlikely to provide an increase in capacity of each set, so there isn't a pressing need to replace IC225s with IEPs on capacity grounds

The crumple zones needed in Voyagers are a lot shorter than the entire length of a Class 91/ DVT though

While I get the benefits of EMUs and DMUs.. when you look at the Intercity trains, I can't help but wonder why we can't just build a shed load of carriages designed with a range of interfaces to make them totally interchangeable between different engines - which could be diesel, electric, hydrogen, filled with batteries or whatever the future holds.

Then, as the years go on, you can simply build more of these generic carriages that can be kitted out inside however you want - and easily changed if it's designed with that in mind. If any are involved in accidents, you have an easy way to replace them as you've got this design in mind for the next 10-20 years.

If you thought ahead, you could even build new coaches in the future with newer interfacing for things we haven't thought of yet, and simply make sure it's backwardly compatible.

Whilst I can accept multiple units, the ability to build "generic" coaches would be a big "plus" for loco hauled operation. For example, at the moment we could do with more coaches for 150s, 158s, 170s, 175s, 185s, 221s etc - maybe a couple of hundred coaches could be built which would be enough to warrant opening a production line, but because these are all different types of DMU you couldn't simply build two hundred generic DMU coaches (in the way that you could build two hundred Mk3s).

Look at the way that the centre coaches for 185s couldn't be built because it was only a small order and the regulations had moved on since. You'd never have that problem with generic underpowered coaches.

Liverpool-Manchester/Wigan electrification is due to be completed by Dec 2014, although the train requirement is not that great (20 units?).
The Bolton/Blackpool/Stalybridge routes come 1-2 years later.
On top of that there are some DMU workings under the existing wires as it is (Alderley Edge stoppers run by Pacers for instance) because of the shortage of 323s, so Northern can use some extra EMUs immediately.

The 319s were also supposed to be refurbished and upgraded (air conditioning was mentioned by that nice Andrew Adonis), so there will have to be some time in the programme for this work.

The Thames Valley electrification to Oxford/Newbury will not be ready till Dec 2016, so there is more time to sort out the rest of the 319 fleet for that.

Cheers

 

[HSTEd]

Do we have an estimate for how many EMUs will be required for local trains for the committed Great Western electrification project? With none of the branch lines being done it can't be that high.

EDIT:
Additionally how many EMUs will be required for the suburban diagrams in the Manchester area compared to how many will be needed for the longer distance diagrams like TPE and the Liverpool-Manchester trains. (I am pondering shuffling 323s to Northern and wondering how many could be put to use around Manchester).

 

[D365]

In reference to my earlier question about the St. Pancras low-level platforms, I understand why it would have been difficult and more expensive to fit more platforms in. How wide are the platforms; I haven't been down there before. I hope the decision won't come to be regretted in the future...

Do we have an estimate for how many EMUs will be required for local trains for the committed Great Western electrification project? With none of the branch lines being done it can't be that high.

The 86 4-car Class 319 units have been deemed "more than enough" for both the GWML and northern electrifications. Remember that stopers to Maidenhead (or Reading) will be taken over by Crossrail, and several people have also suggested replacing all current Northern EMUs with refurbished 319s. They wouldn't be happy to lose their 333s though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
TPE will run Manchester Airport-Glasgow services with 10 brand new 110mph 350/4s. I believe Liverpool-Manchester will be 319.

Aren't the Trans-Pennine and Northern franchises being merged?

 

[Class377/5]

In reference to my earlier question about the St. Pancras low-level platforms, I understand why it would have been difficult and more expensive to fit more platforms in. How wide are the platforms; I haven't been down there before. I hope the decision won't come to be regretted in the future...

This picture shows how wide the platforms are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stpancrasthameslink.jpg

The 86 4-car Class 319 units have been deemed "more than enough" for both the GWML and northern electrifications. Remember that stopers to Maidenhead (or Reading) will be taken over by Crossrail, and several people have also suggested replacing all current Northern EMUs with refurbished 319s. They wouldn't be happy to lose their 333s though.

Isn't there some peak 6 car workings? That could be a problem if they get 8 cars in peak. It could work out that the north gets more EMU's and GW gets more 319's. After all a order for new TP trains could include new trains for locals as well.

TPE will run Manchester Airport-Glasgow services with 10 brand new 110mph 350/4s. I believe Liverpool-Manchester will be 319.

Aren't the Trans-Pennine and Northern franchises being merged?

At the moment, no-one knows what's happening. They may keep to different types but exchange routes around yet.

The 350/4's are for Manchester - Scotland services as Edinburgh will get services too.

 

[WatcherZero]

Story seems to be pulling in two directions today, RMT is claiming that if the contract isnt signed by the end of August the contract expires (The Government says theres no such clause) and that ministers have put off signing it for another year. Meanwhile ITV Meridian has done a behind the scenes piece touring the Japanese factory where they will start their life and interiviewing Hitachi staff (these kind of media pieces are normally put out by the Government and companies a couple of days before an announcement).

 

[Bald Rick]

Friday apparently. But don't hold your breath.

 

[HSTEd]

I imagine they are piling up the champagne bottles at Hitachi ready for celebrating winning such an absurdly generous cash cow of a contract.

 

[Class377/5]

Just wish there was positive news over Thameslink. Especially no we know a prototype units is around but hidden until sign off.

 

[Skimble19]

Just wish there was positive news over Thameslink. Especially no we know a prototype units is around but hidden until sign off.

Is there any proof of this prototype existing? Last I heard they'd only built some prototype bogies?