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IEP setback
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Harbon 1
Member
I don't think there are any other than the APT
LexyBoy
Established Member
You've clearly not travelled on a FGW HST. I travel down to Kent from time to time and the 395 is a much nicer environment internally than the HST- they can be a bit shaky at speed but the Mk 3s can be noisy too and are prone to wheelflats.
I'm hopeful that lessons will have been learnt when designing the IEP (or whatever) interiors - high density doesn't have to mean not being able to see anything more than 2' away, and well-lit doesn't have to mean having your retinas scoured by light as bright as a million suns. (Little known fact- the lighting on HSTs consumes the entire power output of one power car. If all coaches are set to full lighting, the train will stop).
Photohunter71
Member
Bite the bullet and order UK Traxx to replace the 91's etc,a tag on order for 68's for Inverness/Aberdeen to London/Birmingham services and new coaching stock from Bombardier and that should suffice! Although the class 91's could perhaps end up on Edinburgh to Glasgow routes under Scotrail?
junglejames
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Add them onto whatever replaces the 125s.
If the 225s were enough to cover all bar the remaining 125 diagrams on the GWML, then it could well be worthwhile transferring the 225s then. With The ECML having a common fleet. The GWML wont be having a common fleet no matter what, so no problems there.
Of course, that would only be if IEP was totally scrapped. Fingers crossed.
All certainly isnt well with IEP, and you could scrap it no problem, for the same reasons the WCML franchise award was scrapped. Any legal action would see the government lose. Only difference is none of the other manufacturers have decided to take legal action in this case, unlike Virgin in the WCML case. But its still a valid reason for scrapping it.
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A little shaky? The 395s can be more than a little shaky, and they are also noisier than a Mk3 as well (apart from when in the Mk3 vestibule, but then, thats not where you are sitting). Even a Mk3 with a wheelflat is often quiter.
The lighting isnt much worse on a 395, and the seats actually make FGWs seats seem quite comfy.
The lessons to learn. Dont buy Japanese trains.
The difference is that the GW IEP order has actually been signed so the government can't just cancel it (unless there is a clause in the contract allowing them to do so). It's possible that legal action could have resulted in the contract award getting declared null and void if any of the companies had elected to take it. The government never entered into a legally binding contract with First for the West Coast franchise. The decision to proceed with Hitachi was announced on 1 March 2011 but the contract was not signed until 9 July 2012 so there was more than enough time for legal action to be taken.
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junglejames
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But whats hauling this new coaching stock? and what are the 91s hauling? Anyway, Edinburgh to Glasgow is not suited to 91s.
A cheaper solution, would be to keep the 225s as they are, on the ECML. Do a Chiltern jobbie on the Mk3s in the HST sets, but instead of putting them back into the HSTs, chuck them onto the back of a TRAXX loco. So a fleet of TRAXX locos, and 68s for off the wires services. New stock can be ordered when the Mk3s eventually reach the end of their working life. The 225s have plenty years life left in them.
Same thing should be done on the GWML. Chilternise the Mk3s. Some stay in the HST sets for Cornish services. The rest used as conventional loco hauled coaches, with a fleet of TRAXX and 68s purchased.
A lot cheaper, and leaves everyone with a far superior train.
JamesRowden
Established Member
A big advantage that IEP has over the locos that you have suggested is aerodynamics. When the train is running at a contant speed the required power output is directly proportional to the train's drag coefficient (bigger value for less aerodynamic trains). Since the drag force is directly proportional to the square of the speed the output power required to run at 125 mph is over 56% more than at 100 mph.
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Only they won't because that would be a timetabling nightmare. Also have there been any official sources that suggest that the 225s will be doing 140mph when ERTMS arrives?
route:oxford
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So...
An HST power car is rated at 1678kW so assumming 100% efficiency in transmission and generation (for ease).
The "average" HST has 8 coaches.
So you're saying that each coach would use around use around 210Kw in power if all the lights were switched on?
That's 21000 10w energy efficient bulbs...
Are you sure?
Nym
Established Member
To give you an idea of scale, 210kW is more than the lighting load for a medium sized office block...
LexyBoy
Established Member
I may have been exaggerating very slightly 
Railforums personnel seem to reguarly fall to a dose of sarcasm!Anyway, I have done Paddington to Reading on a FGW HST - only saw one of the carriages..one of the 'High Density Configuration' or whatever...cattle class, sardine configuration or perhaps poverty class I think would be more appropriate given the amount of space they give your knees on them.
They did seem like horrid things. I think the only saving grace of the 395 is that it seems cleaner. But as you say E-Rail..the hospital ambience does nothing. I too always look forward to getting off and getting on something more pleasant at Kings Cross...even a 180...
And they definately still shake; perhaps not to the completely absurd level they did but still enough to be noticeable and annoy. Considering this was a few weeks ago I assume Southeastern or whoever assume its a job done with the 'fix' and thats how its going to be. Which is a complete joke and an utter embarrassment for the monies that were spent on these units.
Oh, I am not talking about seats lining up - I'm talking about no window at all. I'd rather have 6" of natural light from an ill-aligned seat than to be entombed in the no-window seats on the 395s. Some of them are where the pantograph is but I think there possibly may be some where there is no panto above and it has been carried out for amusement or otherwise.
If this is how Hitachi build the other bullet trains then quite frankly Japan, I'm not interested.
I'd be very interested to see the evidence you have for making these statements.
Please don't say you just ead some nonsense on WNXX!
This whole thing is just going beyond lunacy now, I wish they would hurry up and just either order the things or preferribly kill the whole idea off.
The MK4s doing 140 would be a huge risk and reliability push on the 91s which have spend 99.99% of their current working lives at 125. 140 running down the EC would have to be with new stock IMO.
The MK4s doing 140 would be a huge risk and reliability push on the 91s which have spend 99.99% of their current working lives at 125. 140 running down the EC would have to be with new stock IMO.
That cannot be true. They're just fluorescent tubes.. Say 55 Watts each? I doubt there are any more on a refurbished HST than a 317 or similar Mk 3 coach.
They're not that bright and those high seats are bloody comfortable in my opinion. Great tray tables for working from the many airline seats.
Now if less people wanted to travel, we could have more tables - but there's always first class.
Photohunter71
Member
Well I'll agree with that,would love to see sets of MK4 or even a new if it exists MK5 coaches hauled by a 68 to Inverness/Aberdeen and also Traxx from whereever to Edinburgh.
Remember the Class 91 pushed at 162mph in its record setter; granted it was probably short-formed but still, thats not 5 or 10mph over its design speed but 22.
I mean they have done 125mph for 24 years or so, I am not a driver but it doesn't seem to me that they struggle to get there; however, without being a bit pot-kettle, I wonder if you are informed enough to say it would be a 'huge risk'
sprinterguy
Veteran Member
That was under special conditions with a shortened carriage rake though. Even the 154mph record that 91031 attained (Which is the UK domestic record for a train conveying passengers), again with a shortened rake, was reported to be detrimental to the locomotives gearbox.
It has been reported that the reliability issues that began to plague the class 91s before they were modified have started to return to the fleet once more. There is no doubt that increasing their daily operational speed to 140mph would put greater strains on the locomotives and negatively affect their reliability.
LexyBoy
Established Member
Not to mention making naff all difference to timetables.
It's a mechanical device not a person. It doesn't need to 'get used' to doing something.
Having driven cars and vans that have had extended local use only I beg to differ - engines seem to free up after extended running at mid range revs if they havent done much of it, over a period of weeks they slowly run free-er. I tend to put it down to gradual de-coking of buildup around the valves.
But the Class 91 is an electric locomotive?
Nym
Established Member
Mechanical components will still tend to settle into a routine...
Thank you,
No dstrat I'm not a driver but do see a lot of/am involved with the sets in question by other means, above all common sense tells you that you don't push a loco which is already having reliability issues at 125mph up to 140 without fleet wide upgrades
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The power consumption of the hotel services on one mark 3 vehicle is 20kW (in round figures). It is a bit less when in heating mode than in cooling mode.
It is of course on all the time, which adds up on a long journey. The most efficient heating systems utilise waste heat. It is inherently inefficient to draw heat from a generator.
If energy really is an issue you keep the speed down to around 140 kph and use a passive ventilation system. That will not be able to cope in really hot weather except by opening all the windows and having a good blow-through.
As late as 2005 you could sit in a mark 1 with the droplight down and do just that, which was quite pleasant on a hot summer day at the speeds they were normally doing. You can still do that in some types of stock in Sweden, where it can also get surprisingly hot in the summer. Better than a failed air-con system.
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