IEP: Hitachi / Agility wins

[ukrob]

The initial proposal for tender stated that any new trains must be capable of 140mph to allow for future infrastructure upgrades. I have not seen or heard any changes to that by DafT. Anyway, I have found a link where statistics are shown compared to a 225, including weight.

You sure about that?

The minimum specified was 125mph and any faster came under the optional added value.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

You sure about that?

The minimum specified was 125mph and any faster came under the optional added value.

Yes, you're right. I missed out the word desirable. It also stated that that desirability was when trains were in electric mode.

My point remains that I have not heard of any changes to said tender agreement. I would have thought it be quite an oversight if these trains were not capable of 140mph. You never know, one day, the lines may be upgraded. Stranger things have happened.

 

[D841]

Yes, you're right. I missed out the word desirable. It also stated that that desirability was when trains were in electric mode.

My point remains that I have not heard of any changes to said tender agreement. I would have thought it be quite an oversight if these trains were not capable of 140mph. You never know, one day, the lines may be upgraded. Stranger things have happened.

The class 91s and Mk4s on the ECML were built to run at 140 mph, and many sections of the line will permit it. What stopped it happening was the refusal to spend the necessary money on upgrading the signalling to cope. If that policy changes, we might get 140 mph running, but after the WCML fiasco, I'm not holding my breath.

Of course, the residents of Kent are going to be commuting at 140 mph, but you could argue that that's a compromise too, given the linespeed of up to 186 mph on HS1.

 

[Kneedown]

If the MML was electrified I think it would get new IEP trains rather than cascaded 225s. I say this as the 225s would need replaceing a few years down the line anyway.

I think that the 91's would find their way to the MML, certainly for 10 years or so, and then it'll probably go IEP.
The 91's have a fair bit of life in them yet, the East Mid's never gets anything brand new and decent, the Norwich - London route is going EMU i believe (?)the production lines will be tied up for a good few years supplying the sets for the ECML, GWML, other routes etc, and i think it's also significant that the MML wasn't mentioned among the routes that will initially benefit from the IEP.
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The Hitachi bid mentions new sites in Doncaster, Bristol, Sheffield and West London. Anyone know where these sites are?

I believe the sites at Doncaster, Bristol and West London will be maintenance sites, which Hitachi will be contracted to provide i believe.

As regards Sheffield, and also Newcastle and Ashby De La Zouch, i believe it is intended that one of these will form the actual assembly site.

I'm surprised Melton Mowbray/Edwalton wasn't proposed, it has a handy length of ready electrified track for testing purposes.

 

[WillPS]

I think that the 91's would find their way to the MML, certainly for 10 years or so, and then it'll probably go IEP.
The 91's have a fair bit of life in them yet, the East Mid's never gets anything brand new and decent, the Norwich - London route is going EMU i believe (?)the production lines will be tied up for a good few years supplying the sets for the ECML, GWML, other routes etc, and i think it's also significant that the MML wasn't mentioned among the routes that will initially benefit from the IEP.

We got the Meridians, and before that the Turbostars, both very 'decent' trains if you ask me (a passenger).

That '10 years' figure seems to be based exactly on the time it took for the original HST to reach us, is that what you're going on may I ask?

 

[Kneedown]

We got the Meridians, and before that the Turbostars, both very 'decent' trains if you ask me (a passenger).

That '10 years' figure seems to be based exactly on the time it took for the original HST to reach us, is that what you're going on may I ask?

Come on, lets face it, you can hardly call the Turbo's and Meridians decent for a premier service into London. They're noisy, rattly, unreliable (running around daily with often several engines out on each set) plasticky and far inferior to the older HST's.

As regards the 10 year figure, it was purely a figure snatched out of the air. It might be 5, it might be 15 or something in between or either side, who knows.
If and when they get the MML wired the assembly facility will more than likely be busy churning out IEP's for the GWML, ECML and those other lines that were mentioned, so the MML will probably be towards the end of the queue, so it makes sense to cascade the 91's to it in the meantime. After all, they've still plenty of life left in them. The only other option really would be to sell them abroad.

 

[222001]

Come on, lets face it, you can hardly call the Turbo's and Meridians decent for a premier service into London. They're noisy, rattly, unreliable (running around daily with often several engines out on each set) plasticky and far inferior to the older HST's.

Brilliant ride qaulity though! The HSTs are looking tired and worn out (the sooner they are refurbished the better). I don't get this "plasticky" thing, HSTs have a fair amount of plastic in them too... and lets face it nothing is wrong with plastic and what else are they going to use?
Instead of going for the DEMU style for the 9 car Meridians they should have developed a HST style train with Meridian coaches.

 

[alpha_9]

Brilliant ride qaulity though! The HSTs are looking tired and worn out (the sooner they are refurbished the better). I don't get this "plasticky" thing, HSTs have a fair amount of plastic in them too... and lets face it nothing is wrong with plastic and what else are they going to use?
Instead of going for the DEMU style for the 9 car Meridians they should have developed a HST style train with Meridian coaches.

I kind of agree on that last part. Instead of Voyagers and Meridians being built as they were they should have gone for something with completely seperate power cars in that kind of order (and make them all 7-9 trailers in length).

 

[whoshotjimmi]

I kind of agree on that last part. Instead of Voyagers and Meridians being built as they were they should have gone for something with completely seperate power cars in that kind of order (and make them all 7-9 trailers in length).

Isn't that kind of what the Hitatchi proposal is?

 

[WillPS]

The IEP's interior looks nowhere near as lush and comfy as the Meridians'.

 

[Kneedown]

The IEP's interior looks nowhere near as lush and comfy as the Meridians'.

One can't really form an accurate opinion one way or the other. So far all we've seen is a computer generated impression. We'll all have to wait and see the real thing, try it out and then decide.
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I kind of agree on that last part. Instead of Voyagers and Meridians being built as they were they should have gone for something with completely seperate power cars in that kind of order (and make them all 7-9 trailers in length).

Have to agree there. Underfloor engines may give you a get out if one or two engines fail en-route, but they are running round with engines out as the norm. I'm not trained on Meridians yet, but on a 170 if you lost power to an engine, or it shut down, then the performance was seriously impaired. Underfloor engines also detract from the quality of comfort in the coach no matter how smooth the ride is. There is always going to be vibration and noise. That might not be much of an issue on a local service, but for a long distance journey i don't believe it's acceptable in this day and age. If a diesel is really neccessary in the absence of electrification then a power car at either or both ends is the way forward. If the engine(s) is/are sufficiently overengineered then reliability shouldn't be too much of a problem.

 

[222001]

Have to agree there. Underfloor engines may give you a get out if one or two engines fail en-route, but they are running round with engines out as the norm. I'm not trained on Meridians yet, but on a 170 if you lost power to an engine, or it shut down, then the performance was seriously impaired. Underfloor engines also detract from the quality of comfort in the coach no matter how smooth the ride is. There is always going to be vibration and noise. That might not be much of an issue on a local service, but for a long distance journey i don't believe it's acceptable in this day and age. If a diesel is really neccessary in the absence of electrification then a power car at either or both ends is the way forward. If the engine(s) is/are sufficiently overengineered then reliability shouldn't be too much of a problem.

I agree underfloor engines are bad for long intercity routes such as Sheffield - London. If anyone has been on a Meridian in a coach where the engine has failed you will see how much better the travelling experience is. Without the engine in the background you can finally experience the brilliant ride quality and excellent sound proofing from the outside.

Tip: Sit at the opposite end of the coach to what the engine is (they are about 1/4 of the way down the carriage) and you can hardly feel the engine.

I also agree that there are very few Meridians with all engines running. Probably 1 out of 10 what I see. I do think some are shutdown to save fuel as performance is not impaired to much if one fails.

 

[Chafford1]

Roger Ford's 'Informed Sources' in March's 'Modern Railways' is likely to have extensive coverage of the Intercity Express Programme decision. March's edition is out on Thursday /Friday next week (26/27 February).

However if you can't wait that long, Roger will email his 'e-preview' on the preceding Monday (23 February) and it should make especially interesting reading this month.

To register (free of charge) go to:

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/square/ca14/ALYCIDON%20RAIL/Informed%20Sources%20e%20preview.htm

 

[Chafford1]

The electric Super Express will have 140mph capability according to Roger Ford:

'I quote Hitachi " Max speed (mph) 125 (capable of 140 with minor modifications)'

 

[whoshotjimmi]

The electric Super Express will have 140mph capability according to Roger Ford:

'I quote Hitachi " Max speed (mph) 125 (capable of 140 with minor modifications)'

Superb news. Would have been a dreadful oversight on DaFT's part otherwise.

 

[ukrob]

The same as any other 125mph hour stock then - hardly a revelation.

 

[Chafford1]

The same as any other 125mph hour stock then - hardly a revelation.

The same as the Pendolinos and 91s but not other 125mph stock.

However it appeared from the initial announcement that 125mph was the limit for all versions of the Super Express Train.

140mph potential certainly makes sense given that in-cab signalling will be introduced from 2017 on the GWML and ECML.

 

[Edvid]

Here's a link to a recent interview with Geoff Hoon:

Mr Hoon, how will Bombardier's rival guarantee 12,500 jobs and will you change track and reconsider the £7.5bn award?

 

[Chafford1]

This from Professional Engineering Magazine (February 25):

http://www.profeng.com/archive/archive+2009/2204/22040003.htm

Super Express trains face slowdown


The next generation of Intercity Express train will only be able to travel as fast as the 30-year-old train it is replacing until signalling on the rail network is upgraded.

The government has selected Agility Trains’ Super Express design for its £7.5 billion Intercity Express Programme, to replace the existing diesel and electric High Speed Trains on the network. The order, for up to 1,400 carriages, is the largest ever procurement of rolling stock in the UK.

Agility Trains, a consortium comprising Hitachi, John Laing and Barclays, will make three variants of the train, a diesel “self-powered” train, an electric-only train, and a bi-mode train, capable of running on electrified and non-electrified track.

The non-electric trains will use hybrid engines similar to those used in Toyota’s Prius cars, where the diesel generator charges a set of capacitors and batteries to improve performance. They will also feature regenerative braking, and will use power normally lost when the train brakes.

The top speed of the train is 125mph, the same as the 30-year-old train it is replacing. John Elphick, bid manager for Agility Trains, said the design drew on 30 years of Hitachi’s train manufacturing experience.

The lightweight design, he said, used composite materials and metals joining technology such as friction stir welding. Japan, like the UK, he added, still has a lot of non-electrified track, and the hybrid engine was based on technology used on commuter trains in Japan.

Elphick said: “The train can go faster, it is capable of up to 140mph with a few modifications. It wouldn’t be hard to upgrade, there’s nothing structural restricting it. The problem is to do with the signalling.”

The first of the Super Express trains are due to enter full service from 2015. Network Rail does not plan to introduce the European Railway Traffic Management System (ERTMS) until 2017 at the earliest.

ERTMS signalling technology allows trains to travel faster and closer together using “moving block signalling”.

The system is being operationally tested now on the Cambrian line in North Wales.

Speaking at an IMechE lecture last week, Andrew Simmons, director of future train and operational control systems for Network Rail, said: “The next main ERTMS scheme after the Cambrian is likely to be the Great Western. Following on from the Great Western will be the East Coast mainline in 2019, West Coast in 2027, CTRL not until 2038. If there are other business benefits to installing it earlier, our plan would allow this to happen.”

© PE Publishing, 25 February 2009

 

[Railway Andrew]

My first post.

Am I alone, in being generally opposed to the SET.

1.Too compex,i.e. to much to go wrong.
2. As an old buffer still believe Loco, Coaches, and DVT is the answer,the Austrian 'Railjet' class 1116/1216 powered is just that. A proper 230kph train, at less than the Japanese kit.
3. 26m coach length! 100 extra seats per train. Sardine class won't be in it.

As a son of a PWay engineer, with gauging being a specialisation, the coaches will be so narrow,as to make a Voyager positively luxurious.

Now hear is an idea to chew on.
If, as well elec. loco and coaches,( a blend of class 89 ' flying badger' and class 92) how about the diesel need, coming from a '57' operation, on the unwanted Class 60,s.Rebuilt and regeared for 100mph running.

When the GW, MML, with existing have been done, there will be few main line sections needing higher speed.

In 02 edition of Modern Railway,Ian Walmsley has written a superb article.He makes the point that either the 'Taurus' or TRAXX, in which Europe is swimming, van be 'downsized'
as 'Warship' from German V200.

I will take some convincing that the skeletal hand of the Treasury rests on the shoulder of the DfT.Money matters, passengers don't except in election year, and Inter City is too diverse to hit the ballot box.


Andrew

 

[ukrob]

3. 26m coach length! 100 extra seats per train. Sardine class won't be in it.

As a son of a PWay engineer, with gauging being a specialisation, the coaches will be so narrow,as to make a Voyager positively luxurious.

3cm narrower than a Mk4 or Voyager. Tapered ends where the doors/vestibules/bogs are - not really a massive problem. I really hope he didn't specialise in gauging if that is what he has passed down to you