IEP: Hitachi / Agility wins

[jamesontheroad]

Just been announced on BBC Radio 4 news at 08:00.

DfT press release:


http://nds.coi.gov.uk/environment/fullDetail.asp?ReleaseID=392467&NewsAreaID=2&NavigatedFromDepartment=False

 

[PhilipW]

.. but what exactly is being ordered ? ... or is that still to be decided. The article is very vague.

All that one can deduce is that the order is for x trains of y carriages with some trains being electric, some diesel and some "bi mode". Not really that informative.

 

[gordonthemoron]

also it says that as the coaches are 26m long rather than the 23m the existing trains have, then there will be a 21% increase in seats. Surely that only applies if the new trains have the same number of coaches?

 

[Guinness]

Sounds good for British Jobs.

Agility - a British-led consortium comprising of John Laing, Hitachi and Barclays - will make a significant inward investment as part of this contract. They will build a new train manufacturing plant in the UK, as well as depots in Bristol, Reading, Doncaster, Leeds and west London with upgrades to existing depots throughout Great Britain. This will create or safeguard some 12,500 manufacturing jobs in these regions.

I see that Bombardier have won some form of Stansted Express contract, presume more Electrostars?

Interesting to note that 225s are been replaced as well? Surely these are far to useful to be withdrawn yet or will they be going Anglia?

 

[Metroland]

Looks like most of the weight saving is through longer coaches, better materials and energy efficiencies through regenerative braking and diesel hybrid engines. With a 30 year design life, they must be relying on second generation biofuels.

 

[Failed Unit]

Sounds good for British Jobs.



I see that Bombardier have won some form of Stansted Express contract, presume more Electrostars?

Interesting to note that 225s are been replaced as well? Surely these are far to useful to be withdrawn yet or will they be going Anglia?

I guess the will be another class of unit for the company

I agree with you about the 225's surely too early to go for scrap. I don't expect them to go to East Anglia, I expect when the mk3's are finished with on that route it will go to EMU no matter what.

If MML ever goes electric they could end up on that route, also Birmingham - Scotland could aslo make use of them. I know they don't tilt but niether do the 185's!

Failing that maybe we will see them still in use on the ECML with open access operators. Even if they shorterned the set lengths, the mk4's can be hauled by the 90's. I don't know how much hassle converting the former WCML DVT's to work with Mk4's should shorter trains be used take.

One really long shot if a rolling program of electrification is introduced is we could see them on Cross Country.

 

[222001]

Website: http://www.agilitytrains.com

They appear to have changed something about the designs which I now like.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

This looks like good news. If DafT are commited to using hybrid trains instead of electrification, then this looks, on the face of it, a good plan. I would assume that Hitatchi will have some valuable experience with Class 395 by the time these trains are entered into service. It also looks like good news for British jobs.

I just have one reservation and perhaps it is me that misunderstands.

DafT say they are looking to use a mix of electric, diesel and hybrid propelled trains. The Agility website makes the same claim but also talk about future felxibility of the fleet. Surely best flexibility would be achieved if all the trains were hybrid. Then any train could go anywhere and utilise whatever was available to it.

As for 225's, I think it is an excellent idea to move them over to East Anglia, but twice as many 225 sets exist as East Anglia have Mk sets. What would happen to the rest of them?

 

[Danielo]

Is that the bi-mode version on the Super Express Video?

 

[Royston Vasey]

DafT say they are looking to use a mix of electric, diesel and hybrid propelled trains. The Agility website makes the same claim but also talk about future felxibility of the fleet. Surely best flexibility would be achieved if all the trains were hybrid. Then any train could go anywhere and utilise whatever was available to it.

The weight of two powertrains in one locomotive would negate many of the efficiency benefits.

The flexibility claim could mean a number of things. It may be that

- An electric power car can be switched for a diesel power car depending what line the set is needed on: a run 100% under the wires would be much more efficient with an electric-only powertrain than a hybrid where the diesel isn't needed at all. However for mixed routes (like Cross Country Edinburgh-Penzance, hypothetically) the hybrid may be more efficient and cleaner than using diesel all the way.
- Flexibility also seems to refer to future use in terms of adding or removing vehicles according to route and demand. Perhaps there will be a loco + DVT option for shorter trains and 2 x locos for the longer trains for bigger Intercity routes?
- It could also mean they are rated to attain higher speeds and longer trains than their original use, hence allowing for future growth

 

[schmoo_smith]

excellent news! great for british jobs too at this time of need. well done to all parties involved.

 

[175001]

I hope the seats will have a little more padding than it shows on the promo vid :P

 

[mrcheek]

I hope the seats will have a little more padding than it shows on the promo vid :P

The internal layout will need to be DRAMATICALLY improved on what is shown! The trains look great from the outside, but the inside looks cramped and cheap.

 

[Phoenix]

As with the class 91's they wont be streaight away displaced they will most likely stay till 2014/15 but they are sure to be cascaded as just there acceleration alone makes them fit to be introduced on any electrified mainline which wants them the options really should be.

1.The MML as this will replace a decent amount of their Hst's if the wires are extended further.

2.The GE as they generally never get a new build and once the 90's are done with their only option is the class 92 which don't handle the amps round there very well and the current engineering works may actually increase line speeds.

On a different note I am definatly impressed by this whole development as it is bring back many british jobs and are making british trains being built in britain theres a major shock.
Also the look of the thing is enough to impress anyone.

 

[Mojo]

If they are built in Britain then I hope the Japanese will have a good amount of quality control built into it so we don't end up churning out the usual rubbish built in Britain.

 

[Failed Unit]

On a different note I am definatly impressed by this whole development as it is bring back many british jobs and are making british trains being built in britain theres a major shock.
Also the look of the thing is enough to impress anyone.

Been very cyincal on anything that the government says, as they always spin it to make themselves sound like they are "doing us a favour". I wonder how many British jobs would have been created if Siemans / Bombardier had won? Is the Stansted express order a consulation to prevent the factory from closing?

Yes it is quoting that 12500 UK jobs will be created, which is excellant news. Unless the other winning bid would have created 15000 UK jobs. I guess that is something we will never know.

Just saying for the point of debate, don't get over excited by the press release we may have still lost out!

 

[Phoenix]

Been very cyincal on anything that the government says, as they always spin it to make themselves sound like they are "doing us a favour". I wonder how many British jobs would have been created if Siemans / Bombardier had won? Is the Stansted express order a consulation to prevent the factory from closing?

Yes it is quoting that 12500 UK jobs will be created, which is excellant news. Unless the other winning bid would have created 15000 UK jobs. I guess that is something we will never know.

Just saying for the point of debate, don't get over excited by the press release we may have still lost out!

When it comes down to it I don't think they have done us a favour they have done their duty to us.
Yes they can spin just about everything but they arn't lieing about it there will be new jobs at a new Hitachi factory to be built and let's face it at the moment anything is better than nothing even if only 10,000 people get jobs that's on average (by the typical family demographic) 40,000 people being fed housed and clothed and and if they are telling the truth thats 50,000 people who benefit.

Also for a change they have stated it will only do 125MPH but has faster acceleration and will not shave major amounts of time off journeys but RELIABILITY will be majorly increased.
This is a problem which is actually bothering this country at the moment not how fast were going.

The idea for this is to replace the HST and so far it will.

1.Increase capacity (my god more room than a MK 3).
2.Increase reliability.
3.Cut down journey times.
4.Be multi-functional in the case of the power it uses.

The HST's are marvelous machines and it will be very sad on their last day in ECML/GWML service but they are destined to be phased out and after such a long time in service the only natural thing is to replace them but not dramatically as you can see but with the IEP supper express the actual changes aren't large scale other than the look of the thing but if it is similar to the HST but with only slight improvements then it's successful.

 

[gordonthemoron]

no doubt XC will pick up the HSTs which are no longer required by ECML & GWML

 

[TEW]

I still have reservations about this due to the fact they say it is only an option to use them on the Berks and Hants route to Exeter, Plymouth and Cornwall. This isn't good news for anyone down here as we will be left with ever ageing HSTs no doubt.

 

[mrcheek]

we will be left with ever ageing HSTs no doubt.

LUCKY YOU!!!

 

[Edvid]

Is the Stansted express order a consulation to prevent the factory from closing?

Bombardier (Derby) have orders for 377s, 378s, 172s, Gautrain units, Victoria Line 2009 Stock and Circle/District/H&C/Met Line S Stock (the last group alone is comprised of well over 1000 carriages).

To put it another way, their order book is quite full.

 

[Mintona]

I still have reservations about this due to the fact they say it is only an option to use them on the Berks and Hants route to Exeter, Plymouth and Cornwall. This isn't good news for anyone down here as we will be left with ever ageing HSTs no doubt.

I doubt it, they will be used to the darkest southwest I suspect.

 

[TEW]

I doubt it, they will be used to the darkest southwest I suspect.

Just where I live. If they aren't run down here we will just be left with HST for all the tourists, it does get quite busy down here.

 

[Metroland]

The HSTs will be scrapped, they are 30 plus years old as it is, 35 the time the first of these new trains come in. The design goes back to the late 60s, they are well past their sell by date. There is spec in the IEP programme for XC routes as well as commuter trains to places like Oxford, Northampton and Cambridge.

 

[PhilipW]

Please note that Hitachi will have a "train assembly" facility in Britain, not a "manufacturing plant". Read into that what you will. The devil is always in the detail.

I read elsewhere that three locations are currently being evaluated - Asby da la Zouch (near the Old Dalby test track), Gateshead and Sheffield.

 

[Techniquest]

222001: What was the change that persuaded you to like this now? I'm curious to the extreme!

I have to say, their promo vid made quite an impression on me, although I was already hoping they'd win from the previous images we'd seen. I, like most others it would seem, would like additional padding in the seats to what is shown in the video though. Currently they look like they'll be as comfortable as Voyager seats. By my guess, on an Inverness to London trip on one of these you'd need a walk about (to avoid DVT, sore rear end and sore back!) 23 times! No ta!

I'm looking forward to these running, it'll be interesting to compare the actual product to the HSTs. I'm in little doubt that there will be a lengthy transisition time from all-HST on London to Bristol (for example) to all-SE and that I'm still going to prefer my beloved HSTs for quite some time.

Conner: I would expect they would use the SE on the core routes first, much like they did with the prototype and production models of the HSTs. I'd reckon they'll start on London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads, expanding then to Cardiff Central, then the same but with a couple a day to Swansea and Plymouth, then much more regularly to Plymouth and Swansea with one a day to/from Penzance and ending the production run with all services operated on the Western Region by SEs. Depending on how fast they're built, that would see Cornwall not getting them for quite a long time yet.

Of course, I could be wrong with the SE starting with Penzance and Plymouth services, then the Cardiffs, Swanseas and finally Bristols before having an all-SE-operated service. Personally I'm hoping it's the former, but we will have to wait and see for a few years yet!

Hopefully this is going to be a successful design. Whether it'll match the HST to any extent in the success of the design remains to be seen but I would like it to be, so that Britain will have a success 21st Century train design. So long as it doesn't become a new version of Operation Princess, we should do OK.

All-in, we know the SE is on its way, marking the absolute beginning of the end of HSTs on the Western Region. A few years time they'll start getting withdrawn...And with that, I had to pause for a few moments after being overcome with emotion!

Well done to this Hitachi group-thing, I'm looking forward to the day I get to travel on one of these in a few years time!

 

[PhilipW]

How about this for a imaginative way of making the new trains better than the ones that they will replace ----------- namely making the seats align with the windows so that you can see out.

Surely in 2009 that should not be beyond the wit of man !

As to its likelihood ----- err ... not much

 

[Pumbaa]

Please note that Hitachi will have a "train assembly" facility in Britain, not a "manufacturing plant". Read into that what you will. The devil is always in the detail.

I read elsewhere that three locations are currently being evaluated - Asby da la Zouch (near the Old Dalby test track), Gateshead and Sheffield.

Already been revealed (I'll try and find the link) that the bodyshells will be built in Japan. The wheelsets and the assembly of the pre-packaged stuff will be at Longbridge, as agreed with the stupid named redevelopment plan. Other facilities will be opened as yet to be confirmed.

If I were Express Rail Alliance, I'd be celebrating and drinking champagne by the bucket to avoid having anything to do with this mess.

 

[222001]

222001: What was the change that persuaded you to like this now? I'm curious to the extreme!

After seeing it from different angles in the promotional videos and new pictures released I thought it looks very impressive.
The original picture didn't do it justice!
Also I am more happier now the things will be built/assembled here instead of shiped from accross the world. I also have a feeling Hitachi will produce a quality product that will last decades - like the HST has done.

I wonder what number allocation these will get? Multiple units or locos and stock?

 

[Techniquest]

I'd say they'll be MUs, much like the Voyager and Meridian family are.