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IEP for beginners

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AndyLandy

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According to the Platform 5 pocket books, Wikipedia is wrong, and FGW have 52 active sets, but 18 spare vehicles which is where the total of 54 might have come from; although those spare vehicles would not be able to form up two rakes in the correct formation.

Also according to Wikipedia, East Coast have 31 Class 91s, and 32 IC225 sets. Clearly one of these IC225 sets is magical and does not require a locomotive to haul it! ;)

But yes, clearly the numbers on Wikipedia do not represent the number of valid in-formation sets that can be used in service.

Oh, and just to complete the numbers, EC apparently have 14 HST sets, too.
 
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RobShipway

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Well from what he has written the only people who he has spoken to who think it is a good idea are the DFT civil servants who put the proposal forward! This coupled with my fathers view surely you can see that bi-mode is a non starter? I might email RAIL magazine and ask them to do a detailed peice on why bi-mode is such a bad idea.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


He states three heavy diesel engines per 5 car set dont think he would get his figures wrong as he would get slated if he did

I believe Christian Wolmar got his figures from Hitachi himself as I am sure he mentioned this in one of his columns in Rail magazine.

As Andy says, I also think it would be a good idea for Rail magazine to do an article on the advantages of the Hybrid over loco hauled trains, most have probably been written in thsi thread but it would be good to read it in the press.

That having been said, Bombardier did originally design the Class 220/221/222 trains to be DEMU trains, which had they been able to add a pantograph car would I think been a lot cheaper answer to IEP hybrid.
 

sprinterguy

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@sprinterguy: Is the 12x5 car electric you mentioned earlier for Cambridge/King's Lynn fasts? The situation on these isn't very clear-cut as of yet, as well as that of the non-Thameslink Peterborough/Cambridge services.
Not as far as I know, as at the time that the fleet orders were announced the additional electric trains were promised as being for the expansion of East Coast services, and EC already have four HST diagrams that run entirely under the wires.
A quick note, I recall the 5 180s are tied to GW until 2016? Does wonders for my dream to standardise fleets...
Yes, the 180s are covered by a section 54 agreement that keeps them on the Great Western until some time in 2016. After which they are free to go elsewhere.
 

AndyLandy

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A quick note, I recall the 5 180s are tied to GW until 2016? Does wonders for my dream to standardise fleets...

Oh. I'd forgotten about those. I assume some of the IEP numbers cover replacing them, too? Makes sense to hand them over to GC or HT, since they have the rest of the Adelantes. Particularly if we're serious about eliminating all the HSTs (Assuming GC still run some HST sets?)
 

sprinterguy

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Also according to Wikipedia, East Coast have 31 Class 91s, and 32 IC225 sets. Clearly one of these IC225 sets is magical and does not require a locomotive to haul it! ;)
I think that there was originally closer to thirty two mark 4 rakes, although now there is a total of thirty complete 225 rakes - One less than there are class 91 locos, of course.
 

sprinterguy

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Oh, and just to complete the numbers, EC apparently have 14 HST sets, too.
That sounds to be right. Although I will confess to be having difficulty at keeping up with how the loans and permanent transfers from EMT might have affected this total.
 

Dave1987

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Im just about the send an email the RAIL to ask them to do a detailed peice on whether or not loco hauling is better than bi-mode.
 

RAGNARØKR

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Yes, the 180s are covered by a section 54 agreement that keeps them on the Great Western until some time in 2016. After which they are free to go elsewhere.
Conjures up a picture of a team of people carrying out 24/7 surveillance to make sure they don't escape. Or perhaps they are tagged? A cleaner "stole" a train in Stockholm the other day and it demolished a house.
 

Erniescooper

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RobShipway

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http://www.dieselgasturbine.com/August-2012/Hitachi-Receiving-250-Powerpacks-From-Tognum-Subsidiary/
It's not just a diesel engine though , it's a power pack complete with generator and cooler group . The basic engine weighs 2075kg so I would imagine the complete raft weighs 8/9 tonnes and with a 2000 litre fuel tank adding another couple of tonnes i would think there would be nearly 60 tonnes of diesel traction equipment under a 9 car bi mode .

Couldn't exactly steal it then.......;)
 

sprinterguy

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http://www.dieselgasturbine.com/August-2012/Hitachi-Receiving-250-Powerpacks-From-Tognum-Subsidiary/
It's not just a diesel engine though , it's a power pack complete with generator and cooler group . The basic engine weighs 2075kg so I would imagine the complete raft weighs 8/9 tonnes and with a 2000 litre fuel tank adding another couple of tonnes i would think there would be nearly 60 tonnes of diesel traction equipment under a 9 car bi mode .
I did also include "and associated equipment" into my considerations - Based on Hitachi's figures I was assuming that each engine raft weighed 8 tonnes. This didn't seem too unrealistic based on the stringent weight restrictions that the DfT originally imposed on the IEP specification (But which Hitachi have flouted by around 100 tonnes for a 10-car set above the DfT target set, although still making them lighter than a comparable Pendolino formation). So the 9-car Bi-mode sets should be about 32 tonnes heavier than their electric bretherin, the 5-car Bi-mode sets half of that - A total of 40 tonnes in engine weight beneath a 9-car Bi-mode set or 24 tonnes beneath a 5-car Bi-mode.
 

AndyLandy

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That having been said, Bombardier did originally design the Class 220/221/222 trains to be DEMU trains, which had they been able to add a pantograph car would I think been a lot cheaper answer to IEP hybrid.

I've crunched the numbers on those, and there simply aren't enough of them. Even if you could hybridise them, there just aren't enough sets to cover the whole of IEP bi-modal.

Assuming firstly that hybridisation is even possible; assuming Nym is correct about needing two pan & tran cars for sets longer than five; assuming that you include the West Coast Super Voyagers and the Meridians as well as the XC fleet and assuming it's possible to form sets comprised of a mixture 221 and 222 vehicles (this is a lot of assumption!) You could form:

25x 7-car sets, which you make up to 9-car with 2 additional P&T trailers.
80x 4-car sets, which you make up to 5-car with 1 additional P&T trailer.

(That's still a procurement for 130 new carriages)

Now, you need to provide traction for:
  • All CrossCountry diagrams, except those that use Class 170 Turbostars.
  • All MML Intercity diagrams that aren't fully electrified.
  • All GWML Intercity diagrams that aren't fully electrified.
  • All ECML Intercity diagrams that aren't fully electrified.
  • All WCML Intercity diagrams that aren't fully electrified.
(I'm asuming you'd procure new EMUs for the fully-electrified services.)

You'll end up either procuring new DMUs, or "Chilternising" lots of HST rakes. Neither option is particulary desirable.
 

Dave1987

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I did also include "and associated equipment" into my considerations - Based on Hitachi's figures I was assuming that each engine raft weighed 8 tonnes. This didn't seem too unrealistic based on the stringent weight restrictions that the DfT originally imposed on the IEP specification (But which Hitachi have flouted by around 100 tonnes for a 10-car set above the DfT target set, although still making them lighter than a comparable Pendolino formation). So the 9-car Bi-mode sets should be about 32 tonnes heavier than their electric bretherin, the 5-car Bi-mode sets half of that - A total of 40 tonnes in engine weight beneath a 9-car Bi-mode set or 24 tonnes beneath a 5-car Bi-mode.

So for a 5 car bi-mode you are carting 32 tonnes of dead weight and a 9 car 40 tonnes of dead weight. And you have to accelerate that weight every time you stop. Am I the only one who thinks that is mad and an immense waste of energy??
 

AndyLandy

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So for a 5 car bi-mode you are carting 32 tonnes of dead weight and a 9 car 40 tonnes of dead weight. And you have to accelerate that weight every time you stop. Am I the only one who thinks that is mad and an immense waste of energy??

But the vehicles still come in lighter than Voyagers. We've seen those numbers already. Maybe you could make them even cheaper still, but they're not going to cost any more to run than Voyagers.
 

tbtc

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So for a 5 car bi-mode you are carting 32 tonnes of dead weight and a 9 car 40 tonnes of dead weight. And you have to accelerate that weight every time you stop. Am I the only one who thinks that is mad and an immense waste of energy??

Out of interest Dave, are the TRAXX locos for the GEML that you are discussing the ones with "last mile" capabilities?

And what is your alternative to bi-mode? Dragging engines around under the wires is inefficient, but then so is building locos for two drags a day. Nothing is perfect.
 

Manchester77

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oh god, please say we've not got more people thinking sticking a traxx loco on the end of an EMU will solve everything, or even worse will allow mark IIIs to be in service for another 30+ years like mentioned in another thread (not IEP though )
 
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Been following this thread for a while now and although I am indifferent to the idea of bi-modes vs loco haulage, I was wondering what would the 10 five-car and 13 nine-car bi-mode actually be used for on the ECML?
 

RobShipway

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Been following this thread for a while now and although I am indifferent to the idea of bi-modes vs loco haulage, I was wondering what would the 10 five-car and 13 nine-car bi-mode actually be used for on the ECML?

The hybrid would be used on the existing routes that the East Coast HST's currently run, such as up to Aberdeen where the train would travel uner the OHLE wires for most of the journey, then travel on the Hybrid diesel power the rest of the way.
 

sprinterguy

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Been following this thread for a while now and although I am indifferent to the idea of bi-modes vs loco haulage, I was wondering what would the 10 five-car and 13 nine-car bi-mode actually be used for on the ECML?
Replacing East Coast's HSTs. Having 10 x 5-car Bi-mode trains offers more flexibility to match train capacity to loadings at different times of the day and over different sections of route. Though admittedly 13 x 9-car IEP trains and 10 x 5-car Bi-mode IEP trains to replace 13 HST diagrams seems like a lot at face value.
 

AndyLandy

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Replacing East Coast's HSTs. Having 10 x 5-car Bi-mode trains offers more flexibility to match train capacity to loadings at different times of the day and over different sections of route. Though admittedly 13 x 9-car IEP trains and 10 x 5-car Bi-mode IEP trains to replace 13 HST diagrams seems like a lot at face value.

It does, particularly since some are slated as electric-only versions. Are there some EC HST diagrams that run entirely under the wires? Or are there perhaps some proposals to run new services?
 

tbtc

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Been following this thread for a while now and although I am indifferent to the idea of bi-modes vs loco haulage, I was wondering what would the 10 five-car and 13 nine-car bi-mode actually be used for on the ECML?

The thirteen bi-mode ECML IEPs are a direct swap for the EC HSTs whilst the others may be for routes like London - Hull
 

AndyLandy

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The thirteen bi-mode ECML IEPs are a direct swap for the EC HSTs whilst the others may be for routes like London - Hull

Is London-Hull (going to be) electrified? That's currently served by FHT using Adelantes, isn't it? I guess it makes sense to be wired up, and making it another EC destination makes a lot of sense too.
 

RobShipway

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On this wikipedia site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_train, I found this comment:

In February 2009, it was announced that Hitachi, as preferred contractors for the Intercity Express Programme (IEP) would deploy hybrid technology on the self-powered variants of the IEP trains. These trains would be capable of 200 kilometres per hour. Some hybrid-trains would also be bi-modal, allowing power to be taken from overhead lines.

Now, I think the page is out of date as I thought with the electrifiction now confirmed to Swansea that all the Hybrid's would be bi - modal?
 

sprinterguy

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It does, particularly since some are slated as electric-only versions. Are there some EC HST diagrams that run entirely under the wires? Or are there perhaps some proposals to run new services?
You are right in both cases - As I said in a previous post (Although I recognise that progress in this thread this evening has been rather fast paced), there are four East Coast HST diagrams that are entirely under the wires, and the additional electric units were also billed at the time that the fleet sizes were announced as allowing for additional and expanded services.
 

AndyLandy

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On this wikipedia site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_train, I found this comment:

In February 2009, it was announced that Hitachi, as preferred contractors for the Intercity Express Programme (IEP) would deploy hybrid technology on the self-powered variants of the IEP trains. These trains would be capable of 200 kilometres per hour. Some hybrid-trains would also be bi-modal, allowing power to be taken from overhead lines.

Now, I think the page is out of date as I thought with the electrifiction now confirmed to Swansea that all the Hybrid's would be bi - modal?

I would like to know what the difference is between "hybrid" and "bi-modal" since I'd always assumed one was a synonym for the other in IEP's case.
 

sprinterguy

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Is London-Hull (going to be) electrified? That's currently served by FHT using Adelantes, isn't it? I guess it makes sense to be wired up, and making it another EC destination makes a lot of sense too.
tbtc was suggesting that the 5-car Bi-modes, rather than the electric sets, could be used on Hull services. Though electrification to Hull in CP6, as an extension of Transpennine electrification, could be a possibility.
 

AndyLandy

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You are right in both cases - As I said in a previous post (Although I recognise that progress in this thread this evening has been rather fast paced), there are four East Coast HST diagrams that are entirely under the wires, and the additional electric units were also billed at the time that the fleet sizes were announced as allowing for additional and expanded services.

Ahh, that makes a lot of sense. Given there aren't any more IC225s to be had, it makes sense that EC would have had to look to acquiring more IC125s to run additional services, even if they were fully under the wires.
 

sprinterguy

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On this wikipedia site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_train, I found this comment:

In February 2009, it was announced that Hitachi, as preferred contractors for the Intercity Express Programme (IEP) would deploy hybrid technology on the self-powered variants of the IEP trains. These trains would be capable of 200 kilometres per hour. Some hybrid-trains would also be bi-modal, allowing power to be taken from overhead lines.

Now, I think the page is out of date as I thought with the electrifiction now confirmed to Swansea that all the Hybrid's would be bi - modal?
Yes, that particular era of the IEP story has been entirely surpassed now.
 
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