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IEP for beginners

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RAGNARØKR

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1) flexibility of go-anywhere, regardless of wiring spread progress and pace.
When the routes have been cleared for the 26 metre vehicles. They will not be going anywhere on the Southern any time soon. That might not matter but the need for diversionary routes does.
2) avoids the need for a wasteful specialised class of diesel locos that are inflexible in their location (especially coping with change due to electrification) and detrimental to current timetable times/frequencies through reduced numbers of powered axles. Nice theories about reusing the locos are fancifully wasteful as we have no shortage of modern heavy freight locos, they seem unsuited for freight anyway and all of that future use prediction is based on absolutely zero evidence or confidence it will be true on the day in the future - it doesn't survive the first moment's reflection of a business case assessment. Freed up engines on the other hand can have a virtually guaranteed 2nd hand usage - a few months back I was involved in the installation of a mixture of 2nd hand engines into a remote location generator facility in Afghanistan. There is a strong market for engines in this class to be used in a huge range of applications globally (especially where new, specialised solutions are unaffordable as is often the case in developing countries).
When would you expect places like Hereford, Penzance, Holyhead, Inverness and Aberdeen to be wired? Are you suggesting that electrification will happen so quickly that locomotives will not work out a reasonable economic life? And what about the possibility of exporting the stock? UK stock can and has been regauged for an after-life in countries with narrow gauge tracks.
"1950s in the 21st Century" railway dream has no bearing on reality.
You are probably right but what have things come to when the ordinary trains of the 1950s are regarded as too luxurious to be affordable sixty years later? What kind of progress is that? And how come railways in mainland Europe are able to provide spacious comfortable trains, and not just in the fringe places like Scandinavia where standard class corresponds to first in the UK and even commuter trains have generous seating space?
 
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starrymarkb

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At least with the IEP bi-modal the train if it is under the OHLE and the power is turned off, could at least rescue itself with the underfloor diesel engines.

My only question about the IEP bi-modal train, is that in such situations as above please have them be designed so that they can also help with the rescue of the non bi-modal trains with their diesel power if possible Hitachi?

The straight EMU will have a Bi-Mode generator vehicle in the rake for an emergency limp home/generator to provide hotel power in case of a power failure. I believe it's intended to give a speed of 30mph for about 30 mins
 

tbtc

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RAGNARØKR;1346665 said:
When the routes have been cleared for the 26 metre vehicles. They will not be going anywhere on the Southern any time soon. That might not matter but the need for diversionary routes does

So now you're complaining that IEPs might be diverted via the Southern Region?

You're right - it might not matter

RAGNARØKR;1346665 said:
how come railways in mainland Europe are able to provide spacious comfortable trains, and not just in the fringe places like Scandinavia where standard class corresponds to first in the UK and even commuter trains have generous seating space?

For the umpteenth time, UK trains are narrower. IEP should have standard class leg room on a par with First Class seats on planes though, if that's any consolation.
 

AndyLandy

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Right! I have a much better idea!

We should refurbish the HSTs and build a fleet of new Class 91s to haul them under the wires. That way you can have fiddling light engine moves and haul diesel engines under the wires! Everybody wins... I mean loses.
 

Dave1987

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No it doesn't solve that particular one at all. As i have pointed out elsewhere, the peak loads west of Oxford and Swindon can fill HSTs now, so however any future train is powered, you will be sending long formations all the way.



Yes, the new Class 68 will be suitable for both freight and passenger use - and will, as a result, have gearing that is a compromise between those two requirements, like the Class 47, which was displaced from heavy freight duties by purpose-built designs in the shape of 56s, 58s and 59s. The class 68 might do an okay job on duties like the Cotswold Line's start-stop cycle if required, like the HST does, but it will never, ever match the speed off the mark of a Class 180, nor the similar IEP bi-mode.

And, as I have noted previously, the Class 68's Caterpillar engine has never been put though that kind of duty cycle on a railway - it took a very long time until the VP185 and the big MAN diesels came along that something that could take the same punishment as a Valenta was available for the HSTs.

If wiring continues to spread, then the chances are the freight operators may look to make more use of electric locos - especially if the so-called 'last-mile' small diesel engines in new electric loco types on the Continent prove their worth for work in non-electrified sidings and terminals - or maybe they should be banned from our shores for wastefully carting around a diesel engine and fuel under the wires?

A move in this direction over here would mean a diminishing requirement for diesels in a country which currently has hundreds of pretty young heavy-haul diesels with lots of life left in them. Will a small number of much lighter engines (a 68 weighs in at just 85 tonnes v 129 tonnes for a 66 and a 70), which will have been put through punishing use on fast passenger work, actually be a very attractive proposition for freight use?

Well I doubt there will be a demise in diesel locos for freight traffic. There is normally a very good reason that freight locos are diesel. Because most of the freight depots have cranes or machinery around them means that they cant have 25kv wires over the top.

I have seen locos accelerating with what would be considered a very light load for them before and I am sure that a class 68, that could haul 2000 tonnes, hauling a 200 tonne passenger train would accelerate it very fast and easily match a voyager. Especially if the gearing on the loco was right.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As I said, bi-mode strikes me as an engineer, as the right answer. A purpose designed e-Voyager in fact.

It offers:

1) flexibility of go-anywhere, regardless of wiring spread progress and pace.

2) avoids the need for a wasteful specialised class of diesel locos that are inflexible in their location (especially coping with change due to electrification) and detrimental to current timetable times/frequencies through reduced numbers of powered axles. Nice theories about reusing the locos are fancifully wasteful as we have no shortage of modern heavy freight locos, they seem unsuited for freight anyway and all of that future use prediction is based on absolutely zero evidence or confidence it will be true on the day in the future - it doesn't survive the first moment's reflection of a business case assessement. Freed up engines on the other hand can have a virtually guaranteed 2nd hand usage - a few months back I was involved in the installation of a mixure of 2nd hand engines into a remote location generator facility in Afghanistan. There is a strong market for engines in this class to be used in a huge range of applications globally (especually where new, speialised solutions are unaffordable as is often the case in developing countries).

3) matches current 22X comfort wrt underfloor noise, an issue hugely over egged by obsessive enthusiasts and barely noticeable to 99% of travellers, whilst eliminating it on electrified sections. I travelled on a crammed 4-car 220 yesterday, luckily got a seat as the door stopped opposite me, and I completely forgot about it other than in the first few minutes when I was reflecting on this very issue. Underfloor engines are a non issue for all but a tiny minority of people, most of whom I suspect hardly use the services and who are thus of little to no relevence to the modern railway system and it's future. I also suspect if this was eliminated as per their wishes, they'd find something else to vociferously complain about instead as it is their nature that is the problem, not the train's.

4) The diesel system coming in at 5-10% of weight (less?) is irrelevent to being carried around, and the overall train is still lighter than peer EMU/DMUs, and much lighter than EMU+loco wrt track charges.

The overriding requirement on UK railways is to shift existing/increasing numbers of people and give them the seat for which they've paid. Not to reduce capacity and journey times or increase procurement (multiple classes of things) and operational (manning) costs.
Your proposals utterly fail to acheive the former, at the expense of the latter, all in the name of a specious and frankly unnessecry level of comfort that only you seem interested in.
It is better 100 people get a seat, any seat, than 60 get a seat much wider than they are and perfectly aligned with a window most wont look out of. We need maximum numbers of travellers to pay the fares, and to do what we can to keep fares down so the system is open to all. Not as you seem to intend, reducing capacity and raising costs so that only the wealthy can travel and thus give them a commensurate comfort level. If you want more space, go 1st class or use VSOE, or better still, start your own open access operator with the locos and coaches you love and see how quickly it goes downhill.

As I said before - I originally supported an EMU+loco. Now, I'm firmly in IEP & bi-mode camp. Perhaps you should reflect on the persuasiveness of your arguments vs. those of others, and consider that your "1950s in the 21st Century" railway dream has no bearing on reality.

Enough said.

(See, other people can also try and cut others off to give themselves the last word).

I am also from an engineering background. And am currently doing a degree in engineering part time. Your comment that all people who support loco hauling emus off the wires means that we are all living a 1950's dream is to me pretty insulting to be honest. I want a modern efficient railway. What I dont want is vast amounts of money spent on something that is extremely wasteful and just a one size fits all train that doesn't work! You has addressed nothing about the total inefficiency of bi-mode. You have not addressed the massive cost bi-mode is going to have. You have not addressed the fact that the very knowledgable people in the railway have said this is a pointless expensive project. They will not as some people have said electrify to Reading then electrify a bit more then a bit more. No one has addressed the point that bi-modes are wasting energy constantly yet having an emu + a loco to haul it off the wires, for most of the journey there is no waste what so ever under the wires.

And your point that these locos would have no use once the wires are fully up is baseless. Why would DRS have just put the order in for the class 68's if they had loads of spare locos for hauling freight??
 

tbtc

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They will not as some people have said electrify to Reading then electrify a bit more then a bit more

Do you think they'll wire all the way from the Airport Junction to Oxford overnight?

Of course they'll be doing it in stages.

No one has addressed the point that bi-modes are wasting energy constantly yet having an emu + a loco to haul it off the wires, for most of the journey there is no waste what so ever under the wires

Wasting energy constantly?

Are you still saying that having a loco dragging an eleven coach 390 from Oxford to Hereford on off peak journeys (compared to a five coach bi-mode powering itself) isn't a waste?

Even with the fuel tanks, a five coach bi-mode weighs less than a five coach Voyager - the fuel tanks really aren't the weighty issue that you claim they are.
 

Dave1987

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Do you think they'll wire all the way from the Airport Junction to Oxford overnight?

Of course they'll be doing it in stages.



Wasting energy constantly?

Are you still saying that having a loco dragging an eleven coach 390 from Oxford to Hereford on off peak journeys (compared to a five coach bi-mode powering itself) isn't a waste?

Even with the fuel tanks, a five coach bi-mode weighs less than a five coach Voyager - the fuel tanks really aren't the weighty issue that you claim they are.

I think we have established that these bi-modes are going to have about 50 tonnes of excess weight with the engines/fuel tanks + fuel/associated equipment. That is like dragging an extra empty coach along behind an emu all the time. How isnt that extremely wasteful? You keep saying ow but they will weigh less than a voyager. But they will weigh a darn sight more than an emu would!! A voyager is not exactly light on its feet with each coach weighing around the 50 tonnes mark when you take into the 500ish gallons of fuel. You compare that to an emu weighing about 40 tonnes per coach. So saying they are going to be lighter than a voyager is not something to shout about considering they are 25% heavier than an emu.
 

swt_passenger

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RAGNARØKR;1346665 said:
When the routes have been cleared for the 26 metre vehicles. They will not be going anywhere on the Southern any time soon.

You've ignored this before, but I'll remind you again. The published IEP infrastructure alterations do include the diversionary route from Reading to Waterloo.

That is pretty clearly 'on the Southern'.
 

RobShipway

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I think we have established that these bi-modes are going to have about 50 tonnes of excess weight with the engines/fuel tanks + fuel/associated equipment. That is like dragging an extra empty coach along behind an emu all the time. How isnt that extremely wasteful? You keep saying ow but they will weigh less than a voyager. But they will weigh a darn sight more than an emu would!! A voyager is not exactly light on its feet with each coach weighing around the 50 tonnes mark when you take into the 500ish gallons of fuel. You compare that to an emu weighing about 40 tonnes per coach. So saying they are going to be lighter than a voyager is not something to shout about considering they are 25% heavier than an emu.

But as I stated in my previous note in this thread, the IEP bi-modes in severe weather like we have had across the country, would be able to recover themselves track permitting if the Electric OHLE had to be switched, an EMU would not be able to do this would it? Since we seem to be in more recent years getting heavy snow fall, I think it best that trains are better being able to recover itself rather than wait for a Diesel engine to come along.

Trust when I say that trains like Voyagers maybe heavier than your any EMU or standard IEP, but that extra weight enables it to get through situations that in years gone by when the same services where Diesel hauled they could not get through. This is the point where the bi - mode trains come into their own as mentioned above.
 

tbtc

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But as I stated in my previous note in this thread, the IEP bi-modes in severe weather like we have had across the country, would be able to recover themselves track permitting if the Electric OHLE had to be switched, an EMU would not be able to do this would it? Since we seem to be in more recent years getting heavy snow fall, I think it best that trains are better being able to recover itself rather than wait for a Diesel engine to come along.

Trust when I say that trains like Voyagers maybe heavier than your any EMU or standard IEP, but that extra weight enables it to get through situations that in years gone by when the same services where Diesel hauled they could not get through. This is the point where the bi - mode trains come into their own as mentioned above.

True - the lines came down between Wigan and Preston today, rendering the 390s useless.

Since we have more "extreme" weather (not just snow but also winds, flooding) and fewer "spare locos just sitting around" (like BR had), there's a definite benefit to trains able to cope with disruption (and diversion etc).
 

jimm

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And your point that these locos would have no use once the wires are fully up is baseless. Why would DRS have just put the order in for the class 68's if they had loads of spare locos for hauling freight??

Baseless? There would still be some work for diesels to do but nothing like the amount there is now. Certainly not enough for the hundreds of heavy-haul engines there are around now with years of life in them, never mind any putative lightweight mixed-traffic machines looking for something to do after wiring spreads.

Why would DRS have ordered Class 68s? How about so that they have something more reliable and cheaper to maintain than elderly British Rail diesels dating back to the 1960s? Duties such as the charters for cruise passengers they worked for the past couple of years. Not forgetting that WCRC's 47500 committed suicide by fire only the other day.

As for your claims back up the thread about overhead wiring and freight terminals, you seem to have managed to ignore the fact that electrics operate from places like Trafford Park now and my point that the 'last-mile' diesel engines now being adopted in European electric locos remove any need whatever to wire the terminal area. Or did you just, yet again, ignore the bit that doesn't fit in with your views?

The gearing for hauling a 2,000-tonne freight is quite different from that best suited to swiftly accelerating a passenger train weighing a few hundred tonnes. I don't have an engineering background but that's just plain common sense.
 
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starrymarkb

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RobShipway

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Baseless? There would still be some work for diesels to do but nothing like the amount there is now. Certainly not enough for the hundreds of heavy-haul engines there are around now with years of life in them, never mind any putative lightweight mixed-traffic machines looking for something to do after wiring spreads.

Why would DRS have ordered Class 68s? How about so that they have something more reliable and cheaper to maintain than elderly British Rail diesels dating back to the 1960s? Duties such as the charters for cruise passengers they worked for the past couple of years. Not forgetting that WCRC's 47500 committed suicide by fire only the other day.

As for your claims back up the thread about overhead wiring and freight terminals, you seem to have managed to ignore the fact that electrics operate from places like Trafford Park now and my point that the 'last-mile' diesel engines now being adopted in European electric locos remove any need whatever to wire the terminal area. Or did you just, yet again, ignore the bit that doesn't fit in with your views?

The gearing for hauling a 2,000-tonne freight is quite different from that best suited to swiftly accelerating a passenger train weighing a few hundred tonnes. I don't have an engineering background but that's just plain common sense.

The Class 68 is also lighter in weight than the current BR 1960's designed loco's, but can be geared for up to 100mph which is why I believe DBS/Chiltern Railways are looking at replacing the class 67 on their loco hauled trains.

In my opinion all Electric loco's and Emu's should have either a last mile diesel engine built within it or even better have a battery pack that enable it to move the last mile in the depot or freight terminal where OHLE cannot be placed due to cranes and other items being in the way.

The above is why the full IEP EMU's will have last mile powerpack as per the comment below from the IEP Wikipedia page:

In late 2012 MTU was announced as the preferred supplier of diesel engines; bi-mode trains are to be fitted with between three and five 700 kW (940 hp) engine generators powered by the 12-cylinder MTU 12V 1600 R80L. Electrically powered trains are also to be fitted with a single powerpack of the same design to be used for auxiliary and emergency power, and for shunting in depots.
 

Dave1987

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Baseless? There would still be some work for diesels to do but nothing like the amount there is now. Certainly not enough for the hundreds of heavy-haul engines there are around now with years of life in them, never mind any putative lightweight mixed-traffic machines looking for something to do after wiring spreads.

Why would DRS have ordered Class 68s? How about so that they have something more reliable and cheaper to maintain than elderly British Rail diesels dating back to the 1960s? Duties such as the charters for cruise passengers they worked for the past couple of years. Not forgetting that WCRC's 47500 committed suicide by fire only the other day.

As for your claims back up the thread about overhead wiring and freight terminals, you seem to have managed to ignore the fact that electrics operate from places like Trafford Park now and my point that the 'last-mile' diesel engines now being adopted in European electric locos remove any need whatever to wire the terminal area. Or did you just, yet again, ignore the bit that doesn't fit in with your views?

The gearing for hauling a 2,000-tonne freight is quite different from that best suited to swiftly accelerating a passenger train weighing a few hundred tonnes. I don't have an engineering background but that's just plain common sense.

I'm not going to comment on 47500 because the loco didnt "commit suicide" I've heard rumours of what actually happened with that but not going to discuss as its not been confirmed yet and is only rumours.

The gearing of a loco would be very simple to change over. That prob why they have been advertised as suitable for freight and passenger. Seems to me you have got it in for anything that isn't absolutely brand new or is loco hauled. Chilterns loco+mk3+dvt seem to be doing alright for themselves!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Class 68 is also lighter in weight than the current BR 1960's designed loco's, but can be geared for up to 100mph which is why I believe DBS/Chiltern Railways are looking at replacing the class 67 on their loco hauled trains.

In my opinion all Electric loco's and Emu's should have either a last mile diesel engine built within it or even better have a battery pack that enable it to move the last mile in the depot or freight terminal where OHLE cannot be placed due to cranes and other items being in the way.

The above is why the full IEP EMU's will have last mile powerpack as per the comment below from the IEP Wikipedia page:

In late 2012 MTU was announced as the preferred supplier of diesel engines; bi-mode trains are to be fitted with between three and five 700 kW (940 hp) engine generators powered by the 12-cylinder MTU 12V 1600 R80L. Electrically powered trains are also to be fitted with a single powerpack of the same design to be used for auxiliary and emergency power, and for shunting in depots.

For all those who say that we people who advocate loco hauling emus off the wires are living in a 1950's dream world, what about the Germans eh? A lot of their suburban trains are push/pulls and what about our supposedly "knackered" class 87s that are working just fine in Bulgaria??
 

RobShipway

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For all those who say that we people who advocate loco hauling emus off the wires are living in a 1950's dream world, what about the Germans eh? A lot of their suburban trains are push/pulls and what about our supposedly "knackered" class 87s that are working just fine in Bulgaria??

Please note that the push - pull are working the Suburban trains they are not working the Intercity trains which certainly on the GWML, is what the IEP trains will be working.

Yes, some of the German Suburban trains can cover as much in distance as our InterCity trains do here, but they have a far greater network setup with many depots where replacement locos can be provided, but we no longer have the large amount of depots to achieve the same due to closure of quite a few of these in the last 40 plus years.

Please also remember that even their Diesel InterCity trains are DMU trains no different than the likes of the HST, why do think they use those?
 

Dave1987

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Please note that the push - pull are working the Suburban trains they are not working the Intercity trains which certainly on the GWML, is what the IEP trains will be working.

Yes, some of the German Suburban trains can cover as much in distance as our InterCity trains do here, but they have a far greater network setup with many depots where replacement locos can be provided, but we no longer have the large amount of depots to achieve the same due to closure of quite a few of these in the last 40 plus years.

Please also remember that even their Diesel InterCity trains are DMU trains no different than the likes of the HST, why do think they use those?

I do appreciate what you are saying. But they still run push/pulls which people seem to think need to be withdrawn immediately because all the the loco's are knackered, cant match the units on performance etc etc. Most of which is rubbish. Why would the Germans be happy to run push/pulls on stopping services if it wasnt quick enough. And like I said our supposedly "knackered" class 87's are working perfectly fine in Bulgaria. We seem to have the attitude of scrap everything that is more than 10 years old in this country.

Anyway we are getting off the subject of this thread.

As we are going round in circles as AndyLandy has quite rightly said. You all know what my opinion is. Industry experts seem to feel exactly the same well. I just hope this ridiculous project is scrapped before to much money is wasted on it. Would be far far cheaper with off the shelf electric traction and loco haul off the wires..... end of :D
 

asylumxl

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Why would the Germans be happy to run push/pulls on stopping services if it wasnt quick enough.

Because many of the European operators have an excess of locomotives doing nothing so they find ways to utilise them. Hence the use of Taurus locomotives on services like Railjet.
 

AndyLandy

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As we are going round in circles as AndyLandy has quite rightly said. You all know what my opinion is. Industry experts seem to feel exactly the same well. I just hope this ridiculous project is scrapped before to much money is wasted on it. Would be far far cheaper with off the shelf electric traction and loco haul off the wires..... end of :D

I still reckon bi-modal will be cheaper in the long run. I guess we'll just have to agree to differ on that one. Time will tell, it always does.
 
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sprinterguy

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Because many of the European operators have an excess of locomotives doing nothing so they find ways to utilise them. Hence the use of Taurus locomotives on services like Railjet.
That's not the case across the board in Europe by any means though. New locomotives have been built specifically for passenger services in the last decade, and in fact continue to be so (Such as DB's class 146s).
 

tbtc

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That's not the case across the board in Europe by any means though. New locomotives have been built specifically for passenger services in the last decade, and in fact continue to be so (Such as DB's class 146s).

Are any built for use on both freight and passenger duties?

(genuine question - my knowledge of continental operations isn't great!)
 

sprinterguy

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Please note that the push - pull are working the Suburban trains they are not working the Intercity trains which certainly on the GWML, is what the IEP trains will be working.
Loco hauled trains still seem to be in the majority on the electrified German Intercity network as well, either conventional loco hauled or push-pull formations. Though admittedly I'm not aware that this method of operation is being perpetuated with new rolling stock orders any more.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Are any built for use on both freight and passenger duties?

(genuine question - my knowledge of continental operations isn't great!)
There are mixed traffic loco designs that have seen batches ordered at different times for either freight or passenger uses - For example the DB Class 146s that I mentioned were derived from the class 145, which was built for freight use. However, from my observations in France, Germany and Switzerland locos are allocated specifically to either the passenger or freight sectors of the business, they are not used indiscriminately on both sorts of traffic.
 

D365

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A number out of how many?

Just the 146s, all in Germany or across Europe? Of the former, 31 are currently in operation with DB Regio with a further 32 on order. In general there's many stopping services still operated by LHCS.
 
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asylumxl

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Just the 146s, all in Germany or across Europe? Of the former, 31 are currently in operation with DB Regio with a further 32 on order. In general there's many stopping services still operated by LHCS.

I'm asking for information purposes by the way. Once I have that then I'll draw my conclusions.

How many diagrams or services do they operate daily?

How many diagrams or services do DB Regio have daily?

What's the average distance between stops?
 

D365

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I'm asking for information purposes by the way. Once I have that then I'll draw my conclusions.

How many diagrams or services do they operate daily?

How many diagrams or services do DB Regio have daily?

What's the average distance between stops?

Ah, of that information I possess none. Sorry :oops:
 

jimm

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But they still run push/pulls which people seem to think need to be withdrawn immediately because all the the loco's are knackered, cant match the units on performance etc etc. Most of which is rubbish. Why would the Germans be happy to run push/pulls on stopping services if it wasnt quick enough. And like I said our supposedly "knackered" class 87's are working perfectly fine in Bulgaria. We seem to have the attitude of scrap everything that is more than 10 years old in this country.

Anyway we are getting off the subject of this thread.

As we are going round in circles as AndyLandy has quite rightly said. You all know what my opinion is. Industry experts seem to feel exactly the same well. I just hope this ridiculous project is scrapped before to much money is wasted on it. Would be far far cheaper with off the shelf electric traction and loco haul off the wires..... end of :D

And all these allegations you make come from where exactly, because I can't see them anywhere, except in your posts? You brought push-pull trains into this thread, not anyone else. We have push-pull trains here too, no-one seems to be suggesting that they should be withdrawn, never mind any in Germany. Though the Germans are thinning out the numbers steadily, with many new mus on order for DB and other operators, and the new DB push-pull sets are concentrated in areas with long trains, where the costs probably favour using a loco.

Who said the 87s were knackered? Again you introduced the suggestion into the thread. They weren't knackered, just that no-one here had a use for them after Virgin got Pendolinos. The worst examples were scrapped, while most of the rest have been reactivated for somewhere that does have work for them.

Who said anything over 10 years old should be scrapped? Again, you have introduced the suggestion. If you mean we should just keep HSTs going forever, some are closing in on their 40th birthdays - bit different from their 10th. DRS is buying new locos because much of its fleet is very old.

And what off-the-shelf electric traction do you have in mind? The current West Coast Pendolino design is now history after completion of the lengthening programme. For all the talk of mini-Pendolini for West Coast, they would have to be derived from the most recent versions built for European operators, so plenty of design work to be done there - and Pendolinos tilt, a feature not needed on the GWML, with a body profile to match. Pretty much all the other high-speed passenger units in production in Europe from Alstom, Siemens, Talgo, etc are designed to run at 200mph or so, so a bit ott for our requirements. And none fit the UK loading gauge - even the GW one. So not very off the shelf at all - and then you have to finance them... and your diesel locos, which will not perform on frequent start-stop cycles as well as any kind of multiple unit or an electric loco.
 
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HSTEd

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The Germans may be ordering new locomotives for passenger work, but they are also plotting the replacement of almost all remaining loco hauled electric intercity trains with multiple units.
(The ICx project).
 

RobShipway

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The Germans may be ordering new locomotives for passenger work, but they are also plotting the replacement of almost all remaining loco hauled electric intercity trains with multiple units.
(The ICx project).

Will any of the loco's be such that after they have employed DMU's & EMU's to replace them, that they could also be used for rescue purposes?
 
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