IEP - Express Rail Alliance Design unveiled:

[Broken Viking]

Hail All!
I've not had enough time for more than the briefest of skims through this thread since I last visited, but I have a feeling that the DaFT are completely barking up the wrong tree in seeking new designs of train for this project... :roll:

I mean: For a "dual-fuel" train solution; What's wrong with a Class 370 APT-P with a 50 or 66 marshalled between the two original APT power-cars? Although the loco in question wouldn't be capable of tilting into bends unlike the rest of the train, tilting suspension is only provided for passenger comfort, and - Assuming that I've been reading the research info in Two Miles a Minute correctly - It makes no difference whatsoever whether the train tilts or not, as far as potential to derail is concerned.
(Not to mention that "building" an APT-P fleet could be done very quickly and easily by just converting the existing IC-225 fleet, which was initially based on the APT anyway! )

My point here is: As the 50/66 arranged in the centre of the train would be unmanned and driven remotely, it could safely be used as a Diesel traction unit in the middle of an APT set without any form of safety or operational implications. What's wrong with Diesel, by the way? 8)

Farewell...
>> Death <<

 

[gordonthemoron]

What's wrong with Diesel, by the way?

it's running out

 

[Broken Viking]

Hail again!

[Diesel] is running out

Hmmm...Might explain why I've been running my car on cooking oil for the past few weeks, then!

Seriously speaking though: Most cars that run on Diesel will also run just as happily on well filtered cooking or vegetable oil (Used or otherwise) and at some point soon I might grab an old Diesel engine so that I can double-check that this would work in my car without problems.

If it'll work fine in my car (I know that people have already been found who were running their cars on takeaway oil) then it'll work just as fine in any kind of Diesel loco or DMU...And indeed I believe that South West Trains have already experimented with running one of their 159s on Bio-Diesel produced from Rapeseed oil. 8)
(I know that the very notion would be sacreligious for many of us, but could ye imagine a pure Valenta'd HST running on the stuff? )

So...Diesel as a fossil fuel may be running out (That'd explain the fuel prices, then! :roll::mad:) but Diesel as a bio fuel is a more than practical option IMO! 8)

Farewell...
>> Death <<

 

[gordonthemoron]

Diesel as a bio fuel is a more than practical option

if you don't mind starving

 

[Metroland]

it's running out

Well, it may have 'peaked' in supply. Nobody really knows because oil reserves are on the whole state secrets.

Nevertheless, production data shows there is no real increase in supply since 2005

This was one reason there is/was high prices, until 30 airlines went bust and people started cutting back driving here and elsewhere - especially in the US. The credit crunch has helped in that respect.

Either way it doesn't matter: 77% of oil is controlled, not by the likes of Shell, BP etc, but by foreign (mostly Arab, Russian and S American) governments, some of which hate the west and fund terrorism. Numerous well known and official sources: Google it.

'In the 1960s, 85% of known reserves worldwide were fully open to the international oil companies. That number is now 16%. The rest of the world's oil and gas is either restricted or entirely cordoned off. '

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_20/b3984001.htm

80% of Iranian government revenue comes from Oil.
70% of oil is used for transport in the world.

This is the situation for the UK

http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file46984.pdf

On top of this there is climate change: The latest ipcc forecast is here

One of the more pessimistic scenarios is (which are currently looking optimistic) is a 4 degree warming. If you want to see what 4 degrees and above warming does, look here:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article1480669.ece

So no, oil use (which includes diesel trains) is no longer a serious option, unless you are in the business of wishful or simplistic thinking. We need a plan B and so far the next best alternative, biofuels, don't look like they are going to cut the mustard, there is no where near enough land, many cause even more climate change than petroleum, most complete with food, and the ones that do look any good are far too expensive.

So yep, if the Dft go for some cheap and cheerful diesel, it would be a huge mistake in my opinion and the opinion of other commentators. We need to start thinking long term if we want to maintain our standard of living. The techno fix for medium-high speed journeys under 400 miles is electric rail.

 

[gordonthemoron]

unless you are in the business of wishful or simplistic thinking

or only have a short term business plan

 

[Metroland]

or are only in power for 4-5 years!

 

[Royston Vasey]

So no, oil use (which includes diesel trains) is no longer a serious option, unless you are in the business of wishful or simplistic thinking. We need a plan B and so far the next best alternative, biofuels, don't look like they are going to cut the mustard, there is no where near enough land, many cause even more climate change than petroleum, most complete with food, and the ones that do look any good are far too expensive.

So yep, if the Dft go for some cheap and cheerful diesel, it would be a huge mistake in my opinion and the opinion of other commentators. We need to start thinking long term if we want to maintain our standard of living.

Good post Metroland. I study the oil and energy industry as part of my work and there is a dizzying amount of data out there. Don't be too negative on biofuels, they will be part of the solution. Current options are unsustainable, you are absolutely right, bioethanol is a non-starter. But second generation and third generation fuels (diesel/gasoline from algae, waste biomass etc) are being developed by all the Western oil companies and their price will fall with economies of scale, as with any new technology. They aren't far away and commerical plants are already being built.

There isn't a single answer unfortunately, we'll see a mixture of fossil, bio, nuclear/renewable electricity, clean coal (by gasification and CO2 capture), renewable hydrogen etc all used in the decades ahead.

Diesel-powered transport is certain to be around for decades to come, certainly the life of a typical DMU, but it will be derived from both fossil and sustainable sources and (in some parts of the world, e.g China, USA) coal. It won't be the "biodiesel" we see today, which is a pretty crude esterified additive, not a like-for-like replacement. Sustainable bio-derived diesel is only a matter of a few years away, and the price will come down.

The overall cost of fuel plus infrastructure has to be taken into account too. Cost of electrification may well outweigh the projected cost of diesel over the life cycle of the IEP. And if both electric/diesel power cars can be used on the same unit, then this is some way towards being future proof anyway, isn't it? It may make sense to build some surplus electric PCs from day 1 or to produce a second batch down the line.

Incidentally the price of oil in the last few months is down in no way to any shortage of oil, though OPEC haven't been particularly keen to flood th emarket, understandably. Blame speculators, oil is a store of value in times of a weak dollar, and commodity prices in general have soared because of that.

Out of interest Metroland, you seem well informed on the whole debate? Are you involved in any of the industries? (PM if you wish)

 

[Metroland]

Well the oil price is really a matter of debate, you can read many different opinions - some is speculation of course, or dollar weakness. But rising demand isn't helping either against a steady supply. Mexico and the North sea have both seen heavy production declines, which are only just being offset by OPEC which may/may not be withholding supply for political, technical or geological reasons.

Yes, all biofuels aren't bad. That said, part of the problem is scale and water and soil degradation is still a problem with may crops - some better than others. Some still compete with food, by virtue of land space alone and create carbon payback times. Algae is the most interesting (and promising!) but the main issue here, right now, is cost.

While I try to keep anything related fairly conservative (there are those that will tell you the end of the world is nigh, which it isn't) I would say it's wrong to give an impression of a magic bullet either. Which is why careful planning is required!

It’ll be interesting to see what the DfT come up with, as a new HST won’t be retiring until most of us on the forum are in retirement or nearly in retirement in some 45 years time or so. Will it be based it on some wishful thinking or use tried and tested techniques that may well be out of date anyway? In some ways I don’t envy their task!

Nope, no connections, financial or otherwise - it's purely transport related interest. Most of my information comes from journals, newspapers and blogs written by scientists and energy and transport professionals like the www.theoildrum.com.

 

[Chafford1]

The Financial Times will be publishing a report on the Railway
Industry on 23 September 2008. This will include an examination of the
Intercity Express Programme:

FT summary:


"Case Study: The UK’s InterCity Express Programme: Few UK rolling
stock programmes have encountered as much controversy as the UK
government’s efforts to replace the country’s ageing fleet of 200kph
high-speed trains. The proposed trains will have to be available in
diesel-only versions, electric versions and versions that can use
either power source. The programme is so complex that France’s Alstom
has dropped out of bidding. The government insists it will work. This
piece assesses if it will – or not"

 

[Chafford1]

Preferred bidder for the IEP (likely to be Hitachi) is expected to be announced tomorrow - 19th December.

 

[Guinness]

I'd rather it be Bombardier so hopefully Derby can have some output in the work. Shame to outsource once again..

 

[90019]

So...Diesel as a fossil fuel may be running out (That'd explain the fuel prices, then! :roll::mad:) but Diesel as a bio fuel is a more than practical option IMO! 8)

Unfortunately not, as producing biodiesel takes up valuable land needed for producing crops for food production. So, as the population increases, biodiesel also becomes less viable as a fuel.

 

[Pumbaa]

Preferred bidder for the IEP (likely to be Hitachi) is expected to be announced tomorrow - 19th December.

Likely? Where's this come from?

IMO I'd like the consortium - in theory it should produce the best results. And I'm just not a fan of Hitachi doing it - doors on the inside on the Javelins at 1/3 and 2/3 down the cars? Don't think so somehow.

 

[Chafford1]

Likely? Where's this come from?

December's 'Informed Sources' Modern Railways.

Anyway, the announcement didn't take place today, and DfT have confirmed that a decision had been deferred until the New Year.

http://railwayeye.blogspot.com/

 

[Pumbaa]

Phew! That's another week for them to decide to like Express Rail Alliance!

 

[222001]

I also hope they choose Express Rail Alliance. I think Bombardier and Siemens will make a good team. Don't like the look of the Hitatchi artists impression too .

 

[Chafford1]

In the current economic climate, I'm sceptical that this project will ever see the light of day.

 

[Techniquest]

Quite so, the HSTs will be made to carry on until past breaking point.

 

[xtradj]

are these trains proposed for the ECML to replace HST's?

and as for seats, why dont trains use leather seats like planes? its common to have leather seats on planes even in standard class, its not expensive anymore, and so much more comfortable than rock hard cheap plastic

 

[Chafford1]

are these trains proposed for the ECML to replace HST's?

ECML - replacements for 225s and HSTs

GWML = replacments for HSTs

Other lines proposed: Cross Country, WCML (South), London- Kings Lynn.

If GWML and MML are electrified, then presumably the electric version of IEP would be built for these lines.

I read on another website this morning that the decision on the preferred bidder will now be announced on January 19th:

Agility Trains (Hitachi):

Express Rail Alliance (Siemens/Bombardier):

 

[jopsuk]

I realise that high-speed rail everywhere is going to full MU operation (see: all bullet trains ever, the newer ICEs in Germany, the AGV), but surely given the requirement for this project to have three motive types- electric, diesel and hybrid- coupled to impending electrification the sensible answer would have been a "Mark 5" coaching stock with DVT and three different locos (sharing a common body shell, control set up etc). The requirments of different routes would then be met by different interior fit-outs and rake lengths, and if a line was fully electrified the hybrid or diesel locos could be replaced by electric ones.

As it is, both bids seem to have slightly different designs for each of the requirements, with an MU approach to the electrics and a loco-type approach for the diesels. It's a mess.

 

[Chafford1]

..... the sensible answer would have been a "Mark 5" coaching stock with DVT and three different locos (sharing a common body shell, control set up etc). The requirments of different routes would then be met by different interior fit-outs and rake lengths, and if a line was fully electrified the hybrid or diesel locos could be replaced by electric ones.

Makes a great deal of sense, which makes you wonder why DfT aren't thinking along the same lines.

 

[jopsuk]

Makes a great deal of sense, which makes you wonder why DfT aren't thinking along the same lines.

Sheer bloody minded stupidity I'd guess.

 

[Techniquest]

I still do not like that Siemens/whatever partnership one, the Hitachi one looks much nicer to me!

I can't believe they've deferred the decision, I was really looking forward to hearing the result on Friday. Still, more time for Hitachi to win then!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . but surely given the requirement for this project to have three motive types- electric, diesel and hybrid- coupled to impending electrification the sensible answer would have been a "Mark 5" coaching stock with DVT and three different locos (sharing a common body shell, control set up etc).

Has anyone come across any work, anywhere, on developing a DVT that can act as a remote control for locos with and without their own engine? (ie for fixed voltage electricity pick-up AND ALSO for variable speed engine-driven generators?)

 

[jopsuk]

Has anyone come across any work, anywhere, on developing a DVT that can act as a remote control for locos with and without their own engine? (ie for fixed voltage electricity pick-up AND ALSO for variable speed engine-driven generators?)

I'm not entirely sure I understand you here, but the Mark 3 DVTs are in service with both Class 90s (NXEA to Norwich) and Class 67s (WSMR plus the EWS Company Train).

Before that, the Mark 2 DBSOs were initially designed to work with Class 47s, before being refitted and redeployed to the Great Eastern line where they worked with Class 86s.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . the Mark 3 DVTs are in service with both Class 90s (NXEA to Norwich) and Class 67s (WSMR plus the EWS Company Train).

That's exactly what I was wondering about - and I didn't realise that it HAD been done. Not that my DVT query is the only challenge for a hybrid powered train, but it is nice to know that we already have a solution to one of its challenges! Thanks a lot!

 

[Chafford1]

Apparently the announcement of the preferred bidder was called off at short notice, because the Treasury didn't like the funding model.

According to Modern Railways, January 2009 - the GWML is now an unfunded option for the IEP. Instead the focus is on the ECML, Kings Lynn and Euston - Northampton services.

IEP, finance permitting, will be a 140mph EMU. DfT are also still intending to procure a 'bi-mode' version for the ECML i.e. EMU with diesel powercar.

 

[Metroland]

Hmn, 140mph on conventional lines. Haven't we been here before?