IEP criticism by Roger Ford

[Tetchytyke]

Having been on a Javelin a few times I don't get this. If anything they look and feel like slightly higher quality versions of a 350/1 inside.

Judging it against one of London Midland's 350/1s is a very low bar indeed.

I've not been impressed with the Javelins when I've travelled on them, for a supposed premium train they feel cheap. The plastic on the seats is cheap, the plastic on the walls is cheap, the door buttons are cheap. EMT's refurbished 158s are done to a better standard. It doesn't look like the IEP is any different, but I will of course reserve final judgment until I actually travel on one.

 

[najaB]

Interior design was by DCA design in Warwick. Although it'll have been to a DfT specification

Indeed. That was the point I was making - the DfT call the shots where IEP is concerned.

 

[coppercapped]

Roger Ford (who has been moaning about IEP for as long as I can remember) doesn't like the subjective comfort of the seating?

Gosh

Maybe they are comfortable, maybe not - I have no idea - but was anyone expecting a Damascene conversion from one of the biggest critics of the projects?

<BIG SNIP>

Just to respond to your remark about Roger Ford's position on the IEP. As I understand the general tenor of his comments over the years he is critical not so much of the engineering of the train but of the underlying specification, the faffing about before an order was placed with Agility Trains and the model adopted by the DfT for the financing and procurement of the trains. He has been complementary on Hitachi's ability to deliver what the customer, the DfT, wanted.

Whether the train as built matches the train operator's needs is an open question as is, indeed, how the very high costs per diagram will be hidden if ticket prices are not to be increased. For example using figures quoted in the National Audit Office's recent report on the Great Western electrification one arrives at large numbers.

The Department would have had to pay £400,000 per day to Agility Trains to lease new trains that could not be used until the overhead electrification was complete. We estimate that this would have cost the Department about £400 million over the three years that it took to complete electrification.

(My bolding)

This refers to the 21 9 coach electric versions which makes the daily charge for an IEP coach to be in the order of £2,100. This is, apparently, about twice the amount that Virgin pays for a Pendolino coach. Ouch.

However all this has been gone over in other threads.

 

[najaB]

This refers to the 21 9 coach electric versions which makes the daily charge for an IEP coach to be in the order of £2,100. This is, apparently, about twice the amount that Virgin pays for a Pendolino coach. Ouch.

However all this has been gone over in other threads.

If I understand it correctly, some of the difference in price is due to payment being per-diagram, rather than per-day and Agility trains takes a hit if they don't provide enough trains to cover the contracted diagrams or if a train isn't able to complete it's diagram due to a technical issue.

The storage charges are so high because Agility trains would have provided the units to cover the diagrams so the DfT will be paying for maintenance (and I suppose fuel) that isn't needed.

 

[ainsworth74]

You've read the specifications to see the lessons learned from the Voyagers?

I wouldn't bother mentioning the specification. I have, ad infinitum, and it never helped. Despite it being the specification that final assuaged a great many of my concerns that these were going to be Voyager Mk2...

 

[Dave1987]

Well the exact reason I posed the question of whether these are long distance intercity trains or commuter trains is because of what has now been said. Rock hard seats with little padding are perfectly adequate for short journeys. Its when you start to get to journeys of an hour or longer that comfort starts to come into real concern. I once travelled for over two hours on a commuter EMU with the typical rock hard seats. First hour was ok but after an hour it was getting very very uncomfortable and by the two hour mark I was thankful to get off and walk around. Where as I've travelled frequently on Chiltern from London to Birmingham and been comfortable all the way. If these seats are rock hard I will definitely be avoiding GW for any long distance journeys. Would rather travel in comfort even if it does take a bit longer.

If these are supposed to be intercity trains then you would expect them to be aimed at the leisure traveller, and so offer some degree of comfort to persuade people to take the train. It seems more and more that these are aimed at the commuter belt.

 

[Dave1987]

Just to respond to your remark about Roger Ford's position on the IEP. As I understand the general tenor of his comments over the years he is critical not so much of the engineering of the train but of the underlying specification, the faffing about before an order was placed with Agility Trains and the model adopted by the DfT for the financing and procurement of the trains. He has been complementary on Hitachi's ability to deliver what the customer, the DfT, wanted.

Whether the train as built matches the train operator's needs is an open question as is, indeed, how the very high costs per diagram will be hidden if ticket prices are not to be increased. For example using figures quoted in the National Audit Office's recent report on the Great Western electrification one arrives at large numbers.

Indeed he was very complementary of Hitachi in that clip saying how good their assembly line was and how efficient it was. The main criticism he has always had is with what the DFT specified.

 

[hurricanemk1c]

Surprised nobody has mentioned this yet

https://www.facebook.com/Railmagazi...809916245172/1213448102081343/?type=3&theater

(Accessable without a Facebook account)

Edit - it's an IEP 1st Class seat by the door pocket, showing the limited table leg/seat clearances

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes it should be said that window alignment is good. Apart from the seats next to the door pockets where it, er, doesn't even vaguely exist...

 

[Darandio]

Surprised nobody has mentioned this yet

https://www.facebook.com/Railmagazi...809916245172/1213448102081343/?type=3&theater

(Accessable without a Facebook account)

Surely you only get put in that one if you have been naughty?

 

[najaB]

Surely you only get put in that one if you have been naughty?

I hope that seat selectors don't treat it as a window seat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is not First Class by any stretch...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ld0595]

Would've been much more sensible to have that as an area for luggage in my opinion.

 

[najaB]

That is not First Class by any stretch...

Well, on many services First Class is exactly the same seat as standard. 2+1 seating, head rests, every seat a table - looks like First Class to me.

 

[Bungle965]

It looks hard to even get into that seat, look at the gap between the table leg and the seat!
Sam

 

[najaB]

It looks hard to even get into that seat, look at the gap between the table leg and the seat!Sam

I'm guessing that is in the fully reclined position.

 

[ainsworth74]

I hope that seat selectors don't treat it as a window seat.

Nah you'll only get it if you tick the 'Seat with a view' box

 

[XCTurbostar]

Wow. The evidence is stacking up on this thread!
Thanks,
Ross

 

[ainsworth74]

Evidence of what?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, on many services First Class is exactly the same seat as standard.

That it is, and I won't pay for that. But you can't compare InterCity First Class (for extra comfort) with London commuter first class (which is basically equivalent to a seat reservation).

2+1 seating, head rests, every seat a table - looks like First Class to me.

Narrow seat, awkward mini-table, almost no legroom. To squeeze in one (1) extra seat on that side they made a muck of the lot.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would've been much more sensible to have that as an area for luggage in my opinion.

Agreed.

 

[najaB]

Narrow seat, awkward mini-table, almost no legroom.

There's plenty of leg room in that single seat. And when the seat is in the full upright position I'd wager there's plenty of room to get your legs under the table.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

How? You would have still have to run the train on our existing loading gauge at some point so you would still have the same space constraints.

the 'massive' 'bulged' floors i suppose

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's plenty of leg room in that single seat.

Have you sat in it?

And when the seat is in the full upright position I'd wager there's plenty of room to get your legs under the table.

It doesn't look reclined very much. FWIW, I don't like the same seats on VTWC either, they force your knees straight forward just like IC70 seating.

For a gain of one (1) seat per vehicle, they have ended up with non-window-aligned "1 side" so-called First Class seating with this silly layout.

Very poor design indeed.

 

[coppercapped]

If I understand it correctly, some of the difference in price is due to payment being per-diagram, rather than per-day and Agility trains takes a hit if they don't provide enough trains to cover the contracted diagrams or if a train isn't able to complete it's diagram due to a technical issue.

The storage charges are so high because Agility trains would have provided the units to cover the diagrams so the DfT will be paying for maintenance (and I suppose fuel) that isn't needed.

Absolutely - but my understanding is that fuel is billed separately as it wasn't possible to predict fuel prices reliably over the next 27.5 years. It's also a bit more nuanced than my simple 'back-of-the-envelope' calculation. For example, Virgin pays for maintenance and cleaning separately but, for the IEP order at least, these are included in the payment-per-diagram and so are included in the global figure. It's also not clear whether the NAO figure covers only the scheduled diagrams that couldn't be used or whether it covers the whole electric fleet.

Whatever, even allowing for all of this, it wouldn't halve the cost per coach per day. The IEP order is still expensive.

In addition, because of the way the DfT has passed essentially all the risks to Agility Trains, Agility has ordered more trains from Hitachi than would seem necessary using normal availability figures to ensure there are a couple of spares available at all times. Coupled with this it has been reported that because of the maintenance agreement between the DfT and Agility (the TARA?) concerning the period of time allowed for maintenance for each train they will be stopped longer for maintenance than the HSTs. This in spite of having electric brakes which mean the brake pads won't need such frequent replacement and, at the time the agreement was made, 21 of the trains were electric so they wouldn't need fuelling (apart from the donkey engine). So that's another extra train or two.

It will be fascinating to see the percentage of the whole fleet scheduled to operate each day.

 

[najaB]

Have you sat in it?

No. But in that photo I can see the distance from the front edge of the seat cushion to the back of the seat in front and there's loads of it. There's no danger that your knees will butt up on the seat in front.

 

[Starmill]

If this Forum had existed in the 1970s we'd see lots of complaints from the We Fear Change brigade - these multiple units shouldn't be allowed to replace traditional loco haulage like Deltics - it's madness replacing the Deltics from front line service so soon - my idea to use Deltics on the Heart Of Wales - HSTs mean no more flexibility to change train lengths at the drop of a hat - this new thing is the end of the world...

Given the only thing you ever post is criticism of the forum, you would say that, wouldn't you? Very ironic given you opening lines.

 

[Clarence Yard]

It will be fascinating to see the percentage of the whole fleet scheduled to operate each day.

For GWR, it will be 32 out of 36 5 cars and 17 out of 21 9 cars.

It was 18 out of 21 9 cars when they were electric but the DfT went for 17 when the bi modalisation was agreed. So, to avoid short forms, FG stuck another 9 car on their GWR 802 order to make up the difference.

The required daily maintenance windows (at the required locations) are in the TARA but the published version on the DfT website predates the bi modalisation and now there are more onerous maintenance windows for the 9 car fleet.

 

[yorksrob]

If this Forum had existed in the 1970s we'd see lots of complaints from the We Fear Change brigade - these multiple units shouldn't be allowed to replace traditional loco haulage like Deltics - it's madness replacing the Deltics from front line service so soon - my idea to use Deltics on the Heart Of Wales - HSTs mean no more flexibility to change train lengths at the drop of a hat - this new thing is the end of the world...

My goodness, if anyone's petrified of change on here it's yourself, going by your reaction to any suggestion to expand the network from its current wizened 1994 state. Are there any reinstatements not currently underway that you do support ?

 

[RichmondCommu]

If rail travel isn't particularly comfortable or enjoyable, I will either choose not to travel, or take a different route, or use a different mode if possible.

I'm sure someone who had bought an expensive train ticket and then couldn't get a seat on an Intercity service would say exactly the same thing.

The provision of extra seats can surely only be good thing can't it?