IEP - Contract Awarded for 596 Cars

[Nym]

You proberbly would if 222s where running the route too, it is likely that these would be re-formed and 'electrodieselificated' ie. Two panto/transformer cars added.

 

[TheWalrus]

Underfloor engines all the way from London to Penzance?! No thanks! At least with an IEP you'd have the choice of sitting in an unpowered coach.

So youd rather have no catering? Or no train?
They run voyagers on aberdeen-penzance with underfloor engines.

 

[DXMachina]

Also it would be initially 50 miles on electric then diesel, and probably more and more electric running over time.

If you have bi-modes on all long distance services it becomes much more worthwhile to extend existing electrified sections (a performance gain and cost reduction with no associated rolling-stock cost)

 

[TheWalrus]

No underfloor engines does give a nicer travelling experience but for me personally its no big deal.

 

[HSTEd]

Underfloor engines all the way from London to Penzance?! No thanks! At least with an IEP you'd have the choice of sitting in an unpowered coach.

At this point your alternative is an IEP to Plymouth and then a Sprinter/Turbostar to Penzance.

 

[TheWalrus]

At this point your alternative is an IEP to Plymouth and then a Sprinter/Turbostar to Penzance.

…with underfloor engines! Id rather have a meridian throughout to Penzance with a restaurant/pullman/travelling chef!

 

[Rich McLean]

…with underfloor engines! Id rather have a meridian throughout to Penzance with a restaurant/pullman/travelling chef!

I think this could be the way with Cornwall servives and Plymouth services after Midland Mainline Electrification, with panto cars.

Would make a lot of sense

 

[TheWalrus]

I think this could be the way with Cornwall servives and Plymouth services after Midland Mainline Electrification, with panto cars.

Would make a lot of sense

I think so. What about the Carmarthen and Herefords itd make sense on those as well. But their SDO would need commissioning.

 

[RobShipway]

I think so. What about the Carmarthen and Herefords itd make sense on those as well. But their SDO would need commissioning.

I think it is more likely that First or whoever is running the trains on the GWML would be running the Carmarthen and Hereford services with Class 180's and possible Hybrid IEP's if there is enough sufficient. Otherwise, it will be HST's and Class 180's.

 

[sprinterguy]

I think it is more likely that First or whoever is running the trains on the GWML would be running the Carmarthen and Hereford services with Class 180's and possible Hybrid IEP's if there is enough sufficient. Otherwise, it will be HST's and Class 180's.

Both of those services are ones that are specifically earmarked for operation by Bi-mode IEP trains (Presuming that the Carmarthen service is retained in the new franchise).

The Section 54 Agreement covering the lease of the five class 180s runs out at the end of 2016, and with Great Western planned to start receiving IEPs in the first half of 2017 I would be surprised if the franchisee saw fit to renew the contract when the 180s represent a small non-standard fleet that would incur additional leasing costs, when enough new trains to cover GWs long distance service are already being ordered.

 

[RobShipway]

Both of those services are ones that are specifically earmarked for operation by Bi-mode IEP trains (Presuming that the Carmarthen service is retained in the new franchise).

The Section 54 Agreement covering the lease of the five class 180s runs out at the end of 2016, and with Great Western planned to start receiving IEPs in the first half of 2017 I would be surprised if the franchisee saw fit to renew the contract when the 180s represent a small non-standard fleet that would incur additional leasing costs, when enough new trains to cover GWs long distance service are already being ordered.

True, but don't forget this is DaFT who would probably be negotiating this contracts......

 

[jimm]

True, but don't forget this is DaFT who would probably be negotiating this contracts......

The order covers bi-modes for Cotswold line services to Worcester, Malvern and Hereford and was always going to once the idea of a diesel IEP was ditched.

180s can't cope with the loadings on the peak trains to/from Hereford, which is why they have never been used on them. HSTs have been a permanent fixture on the two Hereford runs since BR days and are now needed on the rest of the peak services as well.

But keep anything from the Voyager/Meridian family far far away from GW territory thanks. Liverpool-Norwich would be my suggestion, another route that will have bits wired and others not.

 

[HSTEd]

But keep anything from the Voyager/Meridian family far far away from GW territory thanks. Liverpool-Norwich would be my suggestion, another route that will have bits wired and others not.

Voyager/Meridians are worthless on Liverpool-Norwich, they can't keep time east of Peterborough

 

[RobShipway]

The order covers bi-modes for Cotswold line services to Worcester, Malvern and Hereford and was always going to once the idea of a diesel IEP was ditched.

180s can't cope with the loadings on the peak trains to/from Hereford, which is why they have never been used on them. HSTs have been a permanent fixture on the two Hereford runs since BR days and are now needed on the rest of the peak services as well.

But keep anything from the Voyager/Meridian family far far away from GW territory thanks. Liverpool-Norwich would be my suggestion, another route that will have bits wired and others not.

True, the same comment is made in the Rail Magazine dated 8th August about the bi - modes but things can change as can the reliability of the Class 180's.

I agree with HSTed, that Voyagers/Meridians would not be able to keep the times on Liverpool to Norwich. However, you will find Voyagers/Meridians on the GWML even if it is just part of the XC services.

 

[TheWalrus]

Im thinking should the Meridians be displaced from MML, they should be reformed into 9cars with restaurants for bi mode services which require them to save doubled up 5 card with two chefs!
Id also send some shorter ones to Cardiff-Portsmouth and upgrade this to a cross country intercity route. This would release a number of 158s which could offer an quality enhancement on longer regional routes such as Cardiff-Taunton-Paignton/Plymouth; Weymouths, and Plymouth-Penzance (better than a 150 for long distance travellers connecting from the fast London-Plymouths). Also maybe they could operate this proposal to operate services to Poole?
They may be useful on Waterloo-Exeters to provide a better long distance service?
If there are any HSTs still fit for service these could go to CrossCountry as they are good for long distance.

Does the IEP order include units for London-Exeter semi fasts? As these are never mentioned.

 

[Rich McLean]

It might be an idea, to keep back enough HST's to cover the peak time services on the Cotswold line as a stop gap measure, even if it means under the wire running to oxford?

This could be commonplace until longer more suitable stock can be found, but I suspect they will be stuck with 5 car IEP bi-modes in the peaks as well

 

[jimm]

It might be an idea, to keep back enough HST's to cover the peak time services on the Cotswold line as a stop gap measure, even if it means under the wire running to oxford?

This could be commonplace until longer more suitable stock can be found, but I suspect they will be stuck with 5 car IEP bi-modes in the peaks as well

I don't think so - you don't remove 500-seat trains and tell your passengers tough, we can only get 350 of you on board now.

Someone, somewhere will have to find a solution and if that involves one or more of the bidders turning round and saying that they need some longer bi-modes for the job - which the GW franchise tender documents allow them to do - that makes rather more sense than bringing in yet another type of train.

Unless someone knows different, the plan to life-extend a number of HSTs for West Country services is, I believe, still a live idea and Chiltern's overhauls have shown the Mk3 can keep on rolling for many more years, so why not stick with what you know?

The servicing expertise for Voyagers and Meridians lies in the East Midlands, so keep them working from there. And unless i've missed it, no-one has mentioned that XC desperately needs more rolling stock, just volunteers to inflict MML stock on GW customers, who would compare it unfavourably with the HSTs and 180s.

The first and most obvious destination for any 22x series stock released from the MML (or West Coast if mini-Pendolinos become a reality) is CrossCountry (five or six-car bi-mode voyagers would still be inadequate capacity-wise much of the time) and if passenger numbers on XC continue to grow at the rate they have for the past 10 years, they could probably absorb a huge slice of a fleet similar to the stock they already use.

Please explain how trains packing 3,000 or more horsepower, depending on length, can't keep time east of Peterborough on what are hardly the most taxing lines in Britain? If they can't cope with that kind of work, how would they handle the Cotswold Line or the West Country, with steep gradients in places and closely-spaced stations?

 

[tbtc]

I don't think so - you don't remove 500-seat trains and tell your passengers tough, we can only get 350 of you on board now

Are you suggesting that a five coach IEP could only hold 350 passengers?

There's an extra three meters of length on each coach (compared ot a 23m HST coach)

 

[LE Greys]

Are you suggesting that a five coach IEP could only hold 350 passengers?

There's an extra three meters of length on each coach (compared ot a 23m HST coach)

Depends on seating arrangements and how much space is taken up by the buffet (if there is one) and the cabs. Allowing for DSO-TSO-TSO-RSB-DF, 350 passengers sounds about right.

 

[The Ham]

Depends on seating arrangements and how much space is taken up by the buffet (if there is one) and the cabs. Allowing for DSO-TSO-TSO-RSB-DF, 350 passengers sounds about right.

From http://www.agilitytrains.com/assets/pdf/AT-090205-Key_Facts-Released-1_5.pdf

Therefore, while the details below meet the requirements of the train technical specification for the six different bid scenarios, the train operating companies may choose to make changes to the internal characteristics of the trains that are finally delivered:

Total Seating capacity
10-Elec-IC Type 5 649
10-Bi-IC Type 2 610
10-Self-IC Type 1A 552
10-Self-IU Type 1B 581
5-Elec-Co Type 3 351
5-Bi-Co Type 4 289

Elec = Electric, Bi = Bi-mode, Self = Self-power. IC = Intercity, IU = Interurban, Co = Commuter


Although take the Bi-mode numbers with a large pinch of salt as the diagrams show Hybrid Enginees in the end vehicle, rather than under floor engines.

 

[159220]

From http://www.agilitytrains.com/assets/pdf/AT-090205-Key_Facts-Released-1_5.pdf

Therefore, while the details below meet the requirements of the train technical specification for the six different bid scenarios, the train operating companies may choose to make changes to the internal characteristics of the trains that are finally delivered:

Total Seating capacity
10-Elec-IC Type 5 649
10-Bi-IC Type 2 610
10-Self-IC Type 1A 552
10-Self-IU Type 1B 581
5-Elec-Co Type 3 351
5-Bi-Co Type 4 289

Elec = Electric, Bi = Bi-mode, Self = Self-power. IC = Intercity, IU = Interurban, Co = Commuter


Although take the Bi-mode numbers with a large pinch of salt as the diagrams show Hybrid Enginees in the end vehicle, rather than under floor engines.

How did you get this archive PDF? I spent hours last night trying to find another PDF from Agility. It was released after the review in 2011 when the goverment confirmed they were proceeding. Showing seating formations of both a 8 car electric, 8 car bi-mode and a 5 car bi-mode SET. I would of saved it on my old mac, that left me in March. So the seating formation PDF was before then.

Would be brilliant if someone has it, or knows how to look at archive versions of the Agility site?

It would of updated the PDF you have linked, as it was after underfloor engines were decided on and the doors/vestible areas were switched around. All i remember there were more table seats then the 4 now offered on FGW HSTs and they lined with windows

I personally think the SET is one awesome looking train. So much more room and light inside than a cramped 390!

 

[sprinterguy]

How did you get this archive PDF? I spent hours last night trying to find another PDF from Agility. It was released after the review in 2011 when the goverment confirmed they were proceeding. Showing seating formations of both a 8 car electric, 8 car bi-mode and a 5 car bi-mode SET. I would of saved it on my old mac, that left me in March. So the seating formation PDF was before then.

Would be brilliant if someone has it, or knows how to look at archive versions of the Agility site?

It would of updated the PDF you have linked, as it was after underfloor engines were decided on and the doors/vestible areas were switched around. All i remember there were more table seats then the 4 now offered on FGW HSTs and they lined with windows

I don't have the original PDF release that you are referring to, however I did copy most of the details that were contained within it into a word document. The seating capacities and train formations that you are looking for are as follows:

Formation
Five Car
1. DPTS, 60 seats standard
2. MeS, 88 seats standard
3. M(e)S, 64 seats standard, catering
4. M(e)C, 30 seats first, 38 seats standard
5. DPTF, 29 seats first, disabled toilet

Eight Car
1. DPTS, 48 seats standard, disabled toilet
2. M(e)S, 88 seats standard
3. MES, 88 seats standard
4. TS, 72 seats standard, cafe bar
5. TS, 88 seats standard
6. M(e)C, 30 seats first, 38 seats standard
7. M(e)F, 56 seats first
8. DPTF, 20 seats first, kitchen

D- Driving Car, P- pantograph, T- trailer car, M- motor car, e- diesel engine, (e)- diesel engine in bi-mode version, S- standard class, C- standard and first class, F- First class.

So the 5-car Intercity sets are expected to have a total of 309 seats, 59 of which are first class.

 

[LE Greys]

I don't have the original PDF release that you are referring to, however I did copy most of the details that were contained within it into a word document. The seating capacities and train formations that you are looking for are as follows:

So the 5-car Intercity sets are expected to have a total of 309 seats, 59 of which are first class.

It also seems a bit strange that first class passengers have to pass through one or two second class coaches to reach the buffet. A bit of rearranging to put it in the composite coach, thus making it an RFB, might make more sense, although only taking out 24 seats makes it seem a bit small. HST RSBs take up about the same space as 40 seats.

 

[IanXC]

It also seems a bit strange that first class passengers have to pass through one or two second class coaches to reach the buffet. A bit of rearranging to put it in the composite coach, thus making it an RFB, might make more sense, although only taking out 24 seats makes it seem a bit small. HST RSBs take up about the same space as 40 seats.

Surely that depends on the first class service provision. If there are to be first class hosts using the kitchen between first and the drivers cab then the position of the cafe bar isn't really relevant is it?

 

[The Ham]

How did you get this archive PDF?

It was a referance at the bottom of the Wikipedia page for the IEP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HST2#cite_note-IEP_specs-35

Have no idea how it was found for them to referance.

 

[corfield]

Sorry if these have been discussed, but I've read through this and the GWML bi-mode post, and can't see the answers.

1) What are the 13x 5 car bi-modes going to East Coast being used for ?? The 13x 9 car bi-mode are presumably replacing the 15x HSTs. Are these 5 car bi-modes intended for the same services but smaller/increased frequency ala Op Princess which seems to be the concept for GW 5 car bi-modes, or for something else ?

2) there are 12x 5 car electrics. I understand these will take over the fast services on the Gt Northern run by 365s, presumably releasing a similar number of those. What then ?, are they being cascaded elsewhere, or might that allow the 321s on the Gt Northern to be cascaded?

3) franchising. Presumably many/most of the non-Thamslink Gt Northern services currently within Capital Connect will transfer to East Coast?, taking the 365/321s with them ? and 317s?

 

[IanXC]

Sorry if these have been discussed, but I've read through this and the GWML bi-mode post, and can't see the answers.

1) What are the 13x 5 car bi-modes going to East Coast being used for ?? The 13x 9 car bi-mode are presumably replacing the 15x HSTs. Are these 5 car bi-modes intended for the same services but smaller/increased frequency ala Op Princess which seems to be the concept for GW 5 car bi-modes, or for something else ?

2) there are 12x 5 car electrics. I understand these will take over the fast services on the Gt Northern run by 365s, presumably releasing a similar number of those. What then ?, are they being cascaded elsewhere, or might that allow the 321s on the Gt Northern to be cascaded?

As I understand it the 5 car IEP for East Coast are in addition to the current fleet. The current EC consultation spends quite some time talking about further destinations which could be served. Perhaps we will see all day services to locations such as Lincoln, Harrogate, Huddersfield and Cleethorpes.

3) franchising. Presumably many/most of the non-Thamslink Gt Northern services currently within Capital Connect will transfer to East Coast?, taking the 365/321s with them ? and 317s?

No decision has been made, however the possibility of service groups being transferred into East Coast is suggested in the current DfT consultation. There further options for IEP for 365 replacement, IC225 replacement and GW South West HST replacement.

 

[D365]

Initial bi-mode IEPs on the ECML are to replace HSTs and increase capacity all over; this probably will include new and reinvigorated services.

All 86 319s, the 23 377/5s and 3 377/2s will be released by the Thameslink '700', as well as the 40 365s, 12 317s and 13 321s on the GN side. However, ECML suburbans diverted via Thameslink will not include Kings Lynn-Cambridge-Kings Cross expresses, which will transfer to the new East Coast franchise and almost certainly be taken over by new 5-car electric IEPs. What remains to be seen is whether the 700s will operate peak EC suburban services and the Wimbledon Loop, or whether 377s or refurbished 365s will be used.

Whoops, somebody's beaten me to it. Phone keyboards are so annyoing!

 

[ainsworth74]

as well as the 40 365s, 12 317s and 13 321s on the GN side. However, ECML suburbans diverted via Thameslink will not include Kings Lynn-Cambridge-Kings Cross expresses, which will transfer to the new East Coast franchise and almost certainly be taken over by new 5-car electric IEPs.

When has any of that been confirmed?

 

[D365]

It's inevitable, Thameslink will take over the majority of GN outer suburban services, so most, if not all of the current fleet, will be surplus to requirement. The takeover of Kings Cross-Cambridge-Kings Lynn (Cambridge Cruiser) is definitely happening.