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IEP Construction Progress

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Rhydgaled

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The 180s were extra to free up Turbo's.

Due to the nature of the way FGW HSTs are diagramed, different legth sets don't work, as they very often get swapped during times of disruption and end up in the wrong places for days at a time until an exam is due
Wouldn't the same be true of IEP? And if not, wouldn't the reduced flexibility at times of disruption be a pain (although we have to accept some reduced flexibility since not all routes would be electrified and it'd be madness to have a bi-mode only fleet running under the wires alot of the time)?

I'm convinced that 5-car sets would only be appropriate for a small subset of off-peak and contra-peak services. On others, it might be quiet at Cheltenham or Worcester but you'd be wishing you had at least 7 coaches after Reading. If you can form a small number of diagrams which contain only those services, then a very small number of 5-car sets to cover those diagrams might be appropriate (then again, the sparks effect might put paid to that within a few years).
 
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Rich McLean

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Wouldn't the same be true of IEP? And if not, wouldn't the reduced flexibility at times of disruption be a pain (although we have to accept some reduced flexibility since not all routes would be electrified and it'd be madness to have a bi-mode only fleet running under the wires alot of the time)?

I'm convinced that 5-car sets would only be appropriate for a small subset of off-peak and contra-peak services. On others, it might be quiet at Cheltenham or Worcester but you'd be wishing you had at least 7 coaches after Reading. If you can form a small number of diagrams which contain only those services, then a very small number of 5-car sets to cover those diagrams might be appropriate (then again, the sparks effect might put paid to that within a few years).

Well if things go tits up, instead of what happens now and using the first available HST at Paddington to run the next service. Some services would be caped (ie the 2 fast Bristols which are mostly 5 car) and used to keep everything else moving. Of course, due to the mix of 5-Car Bi Modes and 9 car full electrics, it will be a nightmare, with a lot more cancellations and short forms.
 
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Rhydgaled

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I ask again, how often do you travel this route? Seriously? Because the dwell times are already crippling, a 175 type train would double it at least. So.... i ask again how often have you traveled TPE through the core?
A 158 might double the dwell time, but the 175 doors are supposedly faster. Certainly when I boarded a 175 at one of MAN's through platforms to go to Chester (although, as it was starting there, nobody needed to get off) the dwell time seemed to be no longer, perhaps even a bit less, than the preceeding 185. A 175 with passengers getting on an off would probably give slightly slower dwells than a 185, but I'd be supprised if it was double the dwell time. Besides, a longer EMU with 175-style doors might spread passengers out a bit more than a short 185 and that could help lesson the dwell problem a bit.

It is not about too many stops, even Leeds - Huddersfield - Manchester is now a commuter route.
So, because it is now a commuter route, long-distance passengers should have to stand / suffer poor legroom etc.?
 

YorkshireBear

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A 158 might double the dwell time, but the 175 doors are supposedly faster. Certainly when I boarded a 175 at one of MAN's through platforms to go to Chester (although, as it was starting there, nobody needed to get off) the dwell time seemed to be no longer, perhaps even a bit less, than the preceeding 185. A 175 with passengers getting on an off would probably give slightly slower dwells than a 185, but I'd be supprised if it was double the dwell time. Besides, a longer EMU with 175-style doors might spread passengers out a bit more than a short 185 and that could help lesson the dwell problem a bit.

So, because it is now a commuter route, long-distance passengers should have to stand / suffer poor legroom etc.?

I doubt it personally having watched the Blackpool York services in Leeds struggle at peak times to stick to timetable.

Did i say that? Or were we just talking about doors :roll: i did not say 1/3 2/3 doors and poor legroom and less carriages did i?
 

HSTEd

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Why would 2/3rd 1/3rd vestibules eat more space than end vestibules if the doors are otherwise equally sized?
 

47802

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Suburban door layouts eat furnishable space, meaning you will lose seats and/or legroom.

what a load of rubbish, the 185's have fairly good legroom, possibly the layout might cost a few seats, but gives more space to stand, easier for passengers to get on and off at busy times, I have been on crush loaded 158's and its probably taken 3 or 4 min's for passengers to fight there way out of the train and the reality is at peak times many passengers will have to stand.
 

transmanche

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Debatable, for the scrum between Huddersfield and Leeds in particular suburban style doors are more suitable, yes you could maybe have a long distance style train for the Liverpool Newcastle fast service, but expect the operator will want a standard fleet of probably 110mph EMU's along the lines of the 379/380 or latest Adventra/Desiro equivalents.
But the Liverpool-Newcastle fast services will still be providing the 'local' service on the ECML.

I travel regularly on TPE between Newcastle and Manchester Piccadilly. The position of the doors really isn't a problem IMO.
 

47802

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But the Liverpool-Newcastle fast services will still be providing the 'local' service on the ECML.

I travel regularly on TPE between Newcastle and Manchester Piccadilly. The position of the doors really isn't a problem IMO.

I would disagree have you travelled between Leeds and Huddersfield in the peak periods, or Sheffield and Manchester for that matter, When I used to commute between Sheffield and Manchester the EMT 158's would frequently overrun station stops due to people trying to get on and off. the 185's were much quicker. When I commuted from Leeds to Huddersfield years ago the 150's were much better at coping with the evening scrum at Huddersfield and Dewsbury than the 158's that replaced them.
 
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Haydn1971

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A 158 might double the dwell time, but the 175 doors are supposedly faster. Certainly when I boarded a 175 at one of MAN's through platforms to go to Chester (although, as it was starting there, nobody needed to get off) the dwell time seemed to be no longer, perhaps even a bit less, than the preceeding 185. A 175 with passengers getting on an off would probably give slightly slower dwells than a 185, but I'd be supprised if it was double the dwell time.

Try observing at Leeds, Manchester, Huddersfield or York - where at least half the train gets off and is filled with a similar number of passengers - 2/3rds doors are the best way to even out the passengers on the platform and the double width doors at each exit speed entry and exit - end door carriages just don't have this ability - I refer the honourable gentleman to London Underground stock and the other high capacity routes that use 2/3rd doors

Besides, a longer EMU with 175-style doors might spread passengers out a bit more than a short 185 and that could help lesson the dwell problem a bit.

Yep, we would all love to see a 4 car, preferably 5 car unit in place of the 185's, but it is what it is...

So, because it is now a commuter route, long-distance passengers should have to stand / suffer poor legroom etc.?

Sorry, don't get this - if commuting daily, you have a season ticket and take a chance on a seat. If going irregular or long distance, you buy a discounted ticket a week in advance or full price the day before and get a seat reservation - unless your on the high peak trains where it's pot luck. TransPennine is mostly a short distance (up to about an hour) passenger service, with a sprinkling of airport passengers going slightly further. The Glasgow services are a tad different, but have heavy short distance traffic at the southern end, primarily due to the rubbish alternative trains from Northern.
 

transmanche

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But the Liverpool-Newcastle fast services will still be providing the 'local' service on the ECML.

I travel regularly on TPE between Newcastle and Manchester Piccadilly. The position of the doors really isn't a problem IMO.

I would disagree have you travelled between Leeds and Huddersfield in the peak periods, or Sheffield and Manchester for that matter, When I used to commute between Sheffield and Manchester the EMT 158's would frequently overrun station stops due to people trying to get on and off. the 185's were much quicker. When I commuted from Leeds to Huddersfield years ago the 150's were much better at coping with the evening scrum at Huddersfield and Dewsbury than the 158's that replaced them.
I'm a bit confused. You say you disagree, but then you go on to agree with me.

Yes, I have travelled between Leeds and Huddersfield in peak periods. I have seen the evening scrum that happens there (and I have described the scrum that happens elsewhere too). I have already said that the selection of 1/3-2/3 door position is the right thing due to TPE also providing a local/commuter service along much of the route. And I have said that IMO the position of the doors on the 185 is not a problem.

So what exactly are you disagreeing with?
 

Rhydgaled

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we would all love to see a 4 car, preferably 5 car unit in place of the 185's, but it is what it is...
It is what it is at the moment. Electrification (and presumably new trains on the back of that) is an oppertunity to sort that out. So, 4-car or 5-car EMUs, similar to class 444s/442s, with 175-style doors, please.

Part of my objection to suburban units on long distance fast services comes from when we dropped my public-transport-disliking brother at Port Talbot and sent him off to Nottingham. On his return, he informed me that the Cardiff-Nottingham train had the doors in the wrong place. The other part of my objection stems from the obvious, if a train has been designed to allow more standing room it is at the cost of legroom or seats, perhaps both. I've done Manchester to Leeds/York a few times on TPE and it just feels wrong to be using a suburban-style unit to me.
 

YorkshireBear

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Suburban door layouts eat furnishable space, meaning you will lose seats and/or legroom.

So end doors take up no seats at all then?!? You loose about 4 seats a carriage and gain huge standing room for peaks. On a commuter route.
 

ainsworth74

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Meanwhile for the longer distance passengers there is plenty of leg room, good window alignment and lots of tables.
 

47802

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I'm a bit confused. You say you disagree, but then you go on to agree with me.

Yes, I have travelled between Leeds and Huddersfield in peak periods. I have seen the evening scrum that happens there (and I have described the scrum that happens elsewhere too). I have already said that the selection of 1/3-2/3 door position is the right thing due to TPE also providing a local/commuter service along much of the route. And I have said that IMO the position of the doors on the 185 is not a problem.

So what exactly are you disagreeing with?

Sorry I misunderstood your post I thought you wanted end doors
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It is what it is at the moment. Electrification (and presumably new trains on the back of that) is an oppertunity to sort that out. So, 4-car or 5-car EMUs, similar to class 444s/442s, with 175-style doors, please.

Part of my objection to suburban units on long distance fast services comes from when we dropped my public-transport-disliking brother at Port Talbot and sent him off to Nottingham. On his return, he informed me that the Cardiff-Nottingham train had the doors in the wrong place. The other part of my objection stems from the obvious, if a train has been designed to allow more standing room it is at the cost of legroom or seats, perhaps both. I've done Manchester to Leeds/York a few times on TPE and it just feels wrong to be using a suburban-style unit to me.

Nope, even 6 car workings into to Leeds are frequently rammed, I suspect overcrowding on TPX especially between Leeds and Huddersfield wont be fixed any time soon or entirely by electrification.

In edition you the calder valley route using 155/158's etc which would be more suited to a suburban layout, I would only employ end door design on the long distance intercity routes essentially the current IEP routes and possibly wouldn't even include the Midland Line.
 
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Haydn1971

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It is what it is at the moment. Electrification (and presumably new trains on the back of that) is an oppertunity to sort that out. So, 4-car or 5-car EMUs, similar to class 444s/442s, with 175-style doors, please.

It's not an opportunity without a sensible alternative for the commuters doing the up to an hour commute, which Northern do not currently offer cross Pennine, not CrossCountry do between Leeds, York and further north.

End doors = slow passenger throughput = longer total journey times = angry commuters
 

OxtedL

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I'm somewhat amazed Rhydagled has allowed his irrational fear of 1/3 2/3 doors to encroach onto the IEP thread(!). (He has demonstrated before that he is unwilling to understand the reasons behind their quite practical use, so it's not really worth encouraging the debate.)
 

RichmondCommu

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Not at all, you are missing the elephant in the room - there isn't any other long range route for the 225 trains - as said above, using the 225's on the MML is a stop gap until more suitable replacement units are built.

However it's already been mentioned on this thread (I think by yourself) that 16 of the 225's could run on the GEML replacing the existing (and frankly knackered) mk3 stock. As others have mentioned Chiltern might be interested in taking some and the rest would go off lease. I really don't understand why this appears to be beyond your comprehension.

Really ? - the distances between York, Leeds, Wakefield, Doncaster and Morpeth, Newcastle, Darlington and Durham are similar to the closer spaced stations on the Sheffield end of the MML and actually closer than the stations further south. The 225's currently have no difficulties reaching full track speed on these sections.

Excuse me? A typical stopping service from St Pancras to Derby will run fast to Leicester before making station calls at Loughborough, East Midlands Parkway, Long Eaton and then Derby. There is not a service on the ECML that even comes close to being compared to that and a 225 would have no chance of keeping up with a Meridian.

Not only that but it’s been suggested on this forum that on certain services on the ECML (I think Leeds to Kings Cross) a class 90 is able to keep time. I think that tells you all you need to know about the acceleration capabilities of a class 91.

Why would it be cheaper to buy a new traction unit for a rake of carriages that will be life expired soon - capital cost, revenue and maintenance on a current unit over 5-8 years will be far less than that of a new unit over its life of 25-35 years. Plus, the key point is that we know the 91's currently work with the Mk4's, we can't say the same about a unproven unit that will need custom specification to work with a 25 year old rake of carriages.

If a ROSCO is prepared to invest in a new fleet of electric loco's you can bet your bottom dollar that it thinks it will find enough work for the lifetime of the asset. Once the mk4's are no longer required the locos will either replace the remaining class 86's / 90's or they will be leased overseas.

Do you seriously believe that a leasing company would agree to buy a fleet of locos without previously checking that they could haul existing rolling stock?

As an interim, you'd be looking at 1-2 services per hour terminating at Leicester, there's probably about 20 services an hour calling at the station, with most of these using platforms 2 & 3, leaving 1 & 4 largely unused - to coin your words, it wouldn't be rocket science to accommodate 1 or 2 large terminating express trains per hour at Leicester.

The MML south of Leicester is a busy railway so I'm not sure how you expect to fit in another two services between St Pancras and Leicester on top of the current timetable.
 
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tbtc

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It's not an opportunity without a sensible alternative for the commuters doing the up to an hour commute, which Northern do not currently offer cross Pennine, not CrossCountry do between Leeds, York and further north.

End doors = slow passenger throughput = longer total journey times = angry commuters

Agreed - you've used these services, I've used these services, doesn't seem that Rhydgaled has - should appreciate that the large churn of passengers at cities in northern England means 2/3rds doors are needed

8 cars (or 9 if 20m) or bust!

Is suggesting eight coach long EMUs 2014s answer to suggesting a Shinkansen to solve every route? :lol:
 

Haydn1971

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However it's already been mentioned on this thread (I think by yourself) that 16 of the 225's could run on the GEML replacing the existing (and frankly knackered) mk3 stock. As others have mentioned Chiltern might be interested in taking some and the rest would go off lease.

No, not me... Others have suggested it though

I really don't understand why this appears to be beyond your comprehension.

Do you have to be so rude - your tone is offensive, pack it in !

Excuse me? A typical stopping service from St Pancras to Derby will run fast to Leicester before making station calls at Loughborough, East Midlands Parkway, Long Eaton and then Derby. There is not a service on the ECML that even comes close to being compared to that and a 225 would have no chance of keeping up with a Meridian.

Currently EMT typically run five trains per hour out of St Pancras, I'm a little perplexed that you can't see similar profiles between ECML and MML - long run from London at speed followed by several successive stops

Not only that but it’s been suggested on this forum that on certain services on the ECML (I think Leeds to Kings Cross) a class 90 is able to keep time. I think that tells you all you need to know about the acceleration capabilities of a class 91.

A quick Google suggests that a 225 formation and a Voyager (not that dissimilar to a meridian) both accelarate to 125mph in just over 5 minutes - perhaps someone from Railperf could confirm this.

If ROSCO is prepared to invest in a new fleet of electric loco's you can bet your bottom dollar that it thinks it will find enough work for the lifetime of the asset. Once the mk4's are no longer required the locos will either replace the remaining class 86's / 90's or they will be leased overseas.

That assumes that Eversholt feel that the Class 91's are unfit for further use - if you've evidence for that, perhaps you could share.

Do you seriously believe that a leasing company would agree to buy a fleet of locos without previously checking that they could haul existing rolling stock?

That's not what I said - my point is that we don't actually have a garunteed working solution alternative for the Class 91's - people have suggested Traxx, but what evidence is there that it will perform well with the Mk4 carriages, it might have more power, but how's that delivered, how will that effect the Mk4's, what sort of track load would Traxx create, will the overhead cables be able to deliver enough juice, the dynamics of the power connection... I'm sure there's people on here who have more knowledge of these factors, but given the pre-testing that goes into introducing a new train, you can't just buy a loco from Europe and expect it to work.

The MML south of Leicester is a busy railway so I'm not sure how you expect to fit in another two services between St Pancras and Leicester on top of the current timetable.

As said above, five EMT services per hour, plus 7-12 FCC services across two lines in each direction, gradually getting quieter as you head north. Sounds like ample space to me.
 
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asylumxl

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There are 4 paths out of St Pancras an hour, and 4 paths in. As far as I am aware there is a spare path in each direction. Beyond that there simply isn't enough capacity to cope with more services.

Off the top of my head I can count 24tph in both directions south of St Albans. That's excluding freight and ECS.
 
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RichmondCommu

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Currently EMT typically run five trains per hour out of St Pancras, I'm a little perplexed that you can't see similar profiles between ECML and MML - long run from London at speed followed by several successive stops

You have failed to accept that the station stops on the MML when travelling on a Derby bound 'stopper' are much closer than anything comparable on the ECML. Not only that but judging by post 278 even you have accepted that the GEML will find a home for at least half the fleet.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No, not me... Others have suggested it though

Ok so are you suggesting that their assumptions are without basis?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As said above, five EMT services per hour, plus 7-12 FCC services across two lines in each direction, gradually getting quieter as you head north. Sounds like ample space to me.

Might I suggest that you refer to post 352 which gives a clear indication that there is very little spare capacity on the MML. Or indeed post 355! Everything adds up to the fact that the MML is pretty much full to capacity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That assumes that Eversholt feel that the Class 91's are unfit for further use - if you've evidence for that, perhaps you could share.

Judging by the comments that have been made on this thread it would seem that the ROSCO who own the class 91's are actively looking into the possibility of replacements. Which is why they have been linked to an order for traxx locomotives.
 
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Martin222002

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There are 4 paths out of St Pancras an hour, and 4 paths in. As far as I am aware there is a spare path in each direction. Beyond that there simply isn't enough capacity to cope with more services.

Off the top of my head I can count 24tph in both directions south of St Albans.

There have been 5 EMT services in and out of London St Pancras since the timetable change in December 2008, when the service to Corby started.

You have failed to notice that the station stops on the MML when travelling on a Derby bound 'stopper' are much closer than anything comparable on the ECML.

Another point which has to be factored in is that the MML has a large number of variable speed limits along it entrie route, ranging from 60mph to 125mph, when compared to the ECML. It should also be noted that of the higher their length on the MML is far shorter than those on the ECML.

All in all, this makes fast acceleration is a key requirement for any rolling stock to be used on the MML, something the 91s are not capable of.
 
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asylumxl

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There have been 5 EMT services in and out of London St Pancras since the timetable change in December 2008, when the service to Corby started.

Sorry brains stuck in the old days :lol:

Just adds another nail to the coffin. To be honest the lack of capacity for MML services is one of the reasons I dislike St Pancras nowadays. That and the extension roof leaks to the point things under it are wetter than they would be outside.
 
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Haydn1971

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You have failed to notice that the station stops on the MML when travelling on a Derby bound 'stopper' are much closer than anything comparable on the ECML.

Have you ever travelled from Leeds to Wakefield Westgate ? About 11-12 minutes, about the same as Leicester to Loughborough

Ok so are you suggesting that their assumptions are without basis?

So you haven't any evidence ?

Might I suggest that you refer to post 352 which gives a clear indication that there is very little spare capacity on the MML.

Clear ? Nope, it confirms that there are 24 trains per hour - you appear to be going way off thread here in that my suggestion was a gradual roll out of electric services as wires stretched north, given that Leicester is a key mid-point on MML, a transition between diesel and electric will lead to timetable services, fitting in one extra service isn't going to be difficult.

Judging by the comments that have been made on this thread it would seem that the ROSCO who own the class 91's are actively looking into the possibility of replacements. Which why they have been to an order for traxx locomotives

Comments from whom ? Armchair train operators ? Or people in the industry ? A statement on here doesn't make it a fact, it's a comment, just as my posts are comments. However, there appears to be little basis from industry insiders for the suggestion that Class 91's are doomed.
 

RichmondCommu

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That's not what I said - my point is that we don't actually have a garunteed working solution alternative for the Class 91's - people have suggested Traxx, but what evidence is there that it will perform well with the Mk4 carriages, it might have more power, but how's that delivered, how will that effect the Mk4's, what sort of track load would Traxx create, will the overhead cables be able to deliver enough juice, the dynamics of the power connection... I'm sure there's people on here who have more knowledge of these factors, but given the pre-testing that goes into introducing a new train, you can't just buy a loco from Europe and expect it to work.

Once again do you not think that the ROSCO's engineers would do their research before agreeing to buy replacement locomotives? Especially as their initial duties might well involve hauling mk4 coaches? Is that really what you think?
 

Haydn1971

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All in all, this makes fast acceleration is a key requirement for any rolling stock to be used on the MML, something the 91s are not capable of.

Says who ? As pointed out above, a quick Google suggests acceleration of a 225 set and a Voyager are similar in terms of reaching 125mph
 

RichmondCommu

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Have you ever travelled from Leeds to Wakefield Westgate ? About 11-12 minutes, about the same as Leicester to Loughborough

I notice that you haven't mentioned East Midlands Parkway to Long Eaton. Or Long Eaton to Derby. I would suggest that Meridian would accelerate away much quicker than a 225 set. Not to mention as others have suggested the various permanent speed restrictions on the MML. Which of course you have conveniently chosen to ignore.
 

Haydn1971

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Once again do you not think that the ROSCO's engineers would do their research before agreeing to buy replacement locomotives? Especially as their initial duties might well involve hauling mk4 coaches? Is that really what you think?

At risk of becoming tedious, do we have an alternative solution that's proven to work now ? No ! It's easy to say solutions can be engineered, but the reality is quite different... For example the. 140mph trains we have... Oh, wait... That didn't work out did it
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I notice that you haven't mentioned East Midlands Parkway to Long Eaton. Or Long Eaton to Derby. I would suggest that Meridian would accelerate away much quicker than a 225 set. Not to mention as others have suggested the various permanent speed restrictions on the MML. Which of course you have conveniently chosen to ignore.

Not specifically missed these out, but given what I said above re acceleration, I don't see your point here - a quick Google suggests that 225 vs Voyager would be similar - go look for yourself
 
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