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IEP Annoucement

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starrymarkb

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(how many other EMUs in the world have an engine for "limp home" and how often will it actually be used?).

You asked for it.... ;)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bem_550

These EMUs are an oddity in SBB's fleet being glorified trams for 1,5 kV DC on the Genève - La Plaine section

They feature a small 88kW auxiliary Diesel to reach their depot, for obvious reasons under 15 kV catenary.
 
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LexyBoy

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Would be interesting to know what the CO2 per seat is for a Voyager and a dragged Pendolino on Crewe to Hollyhead, especially if the weight of a useless (for that part) pantograph coach is taken into account.

Wouldn't mean much without a comparison of the CO2 emissions of a Bi-mode Voyager or IEP running under the wires though (dragging those useless diesel engines around).

Agree about the strength of opinions about something which doesn't exist yet though!

I’m personally quite excited and think they have the potential to be nice trains if GWML gets electrified – I am disappointed by the choice of underfloor engines though, which shows a lack of thought for passenger comfort which I’m worried might affect seating and general ambience (think FGW compared to EC HST for instance). Good that there will overall be more seats, but it does seem rather short-sighted after the Voyager/Pendo orders to specify 5 & 8 coach trains which then be a right fiasco to lengthen (extra £££) – the extra seats are only enough for current demand, and passenger numbers continue to rise. The proposed increase in service frequency will be very nice too if it can be made to work without suffering from knock-on delays and lack of stock to double up when needed.

For me at least, most of the things which make a train a pleasant or unpleasant are to do with the interior set-up, of which we know little now and which can be changed relatively easily later on anyway. For an intercity train, give me a comfy seat, sensible luggage provision, a window and a carriage which doesn’t give make my legs numb from vibration or my nose numb from toilet smells and I’ll be happy! (Or is that too picky?)
 

gordonthemoron

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we have alot of long intercity trains running about air

all intercity trains I've used in the UK over the past 3 years have been largely full end to end (leeds-london & nottingham-london) as have the ones I've used in germany and elsewhere. Trains don't cart around lots of air because the TOCs fill them with advance tickets.
 

WestCoast

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all intercity trains I've used in the UK over the past 3 years have been largely full end to end (leeds-london & nottingham-london) as have the ones I've used in germany and elsewhere. Trains don't cart around lots of air because the TOCs fill them with advance tickets.

Not always the case I'm afraid - I've been on some very quiet intercity services both in the UK and mainland Europe. Some of the 'middle of the day' Virgin Manchester - London runs can be pretty quiet.
 

ChrisCooper

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Am I the only one who read the last few posts wondering how someone got away with quadruple posting, only to realise that it's 2 posters with near identical avatars?
 

WestCoast

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Am I the only one who read the last few posts wondering how someone got away with quadruple posting, only to realise that it's 2 posters with near identical avatars?

:lol:Mine is actually my own photograph and it's a but different being a dutch railways owned ICE train;). In fact a Siemens Velaro design (diesel, electric or both!) would be a nice train for the IEP programme!
 

Blindtraveler

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i think we need to be realistic here. If we are going to send a 5 coach set up to aberdeen from edinburgh and run the same set down again we will need at least one extra service a day to avoid crouding. I'm unsure if there are paths for that on some sections e.g fife circle and going via stirling is slower. Inverness goes via stirling anyway so maybe not so bad. Not certain, but other areas of the network may well have similar challenges.

I'm on the side of those who think this is the wrong idea and is a white elifant! I do however accept that hsts will need replacement.

My solutions:

1. If the mk3s wil do another 25 years, lets have exterior power doors, first class disabled loos and let a contract for a fleat of bi-mode power cars, with coaches being given appropriate mods. This would allow procurement of the correct stock for the correct routes without the clock ticking to replace life expired stock.

2. 10 coach electric ieps for wired runs, deezol locos and displaced mk4 rakes for non wired runs. deezols under wires maybe, but better than voyager fiasco number 2.

3. Bi-mode iep as proposed but with a propperly planned replacement for the turbostars, 158s and 159s which will be left to take all the people left behind by the accountants dream! This could, with some thought be quite easy as 158s, 159s and slightly later 166s, 168s and 170s will need to be replaced. 1 way round this would be to wire the required sections of the xc birmingham - scotland run, introduce an 8 car iep to these runs and cascade internally refurbished voyagers to the likes of scotrail, swt, fgw, chilton etc for there regional express work meaning express sprinter type units could be retired and turbostars transfered to commuter work

if regional opperators can offer enough capacitty on there semi fast or express workings, in some cases using existing paths due to a lack of any more then restrictions on set downs and uplifts could be used to make the 5 car iep just about acceptable. New tocs will be able to say what they want, but more paths and longer platforms cant just be magicked out of thin aire.

I know all of the above are far from ideal so go ahead and shout me down, nicely of course but if we want railways to be a creddit to our country and for all types of people, particularly those who want a vibration free seat in a nice fresh looking and smelling environment, with a place for there luggage to use them rather than cars coaches or aircraft then we need to build the correct train, not the one the pen pushers want.

Edit: 16t of deezol with a 40mph speed caipabilitty on an electric unit might have been handy during recent ecml problems? Diverts for trains not in the affected signaling areas perhaps?
 
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ChrisCooper

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The problem is, sticking diesel engines in EMUs to provide power for diversions is fine if the diversionary routes are available and have the paths for slow moving EMUs running on auxiliary generators. Imagine the ECML messes up south of Peterborough, how many 40mph paths are there going to be between Peterborough and Ely? Get there and you've then got to find paths from Ely to Liverpool St, plus platforms at Liverpool St. It's one thing doing it on Sundays, but another thing during the week. Even when it comes to Sunday diversions, you're better off either using diesels (or proper bi-mode) or drags, both of which allow decent speeds to be reached off the wires. The only scenario where auxilliary engines might be of use is in the event of a large loss of overhead power. It's fairly rare, if it's a National Grid problem it's likely taken out signalling too (often over a far bigger area than traction power is lost), and it's fine until you get stuck behind an EMU without auxiliary power. As far as failures are concerned, not going to happen. Even the 5 car will have two pantograph coaches and two transformers, so a failure of one will still leave the other available, and any failure down stream of the transformers will still be downstream of the AGU. If a train brings the wires down then it's unlikely going anywhere fast, AGU or not.

Anyway, if the AGU idea is so wonderful, why don't the 395s or other high speed trains have them?
 

Blindtraveler

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The problem is, sticking diesel engines in EMUs to provide power for diversions is fine if the diversionary routes are available and have the paths for slow moving EMUs running on auxiliary generators. Imagine the ECML messes up south of Peterborough, how many 40mph paths are there going to be between Peterborough and Ely? Get there and you've then got to find paths from Ely to Liverpool St, plus platforms at Liverpool St. It's one thing doing it on Sundays, but another thing during the week. Even when it comes to Sunday diversions, you're better off either using diesels (or proper bi-mode) or drags, both of which allow decent speeds to be reached off the wires. The only scenario where auxilliary engines might be of use is in the event of a large loss of overhead power. It's fairly rare, if it's a National Grid problem it's likely taken out signalling too (often over a far bigger area than traction power is lost), and it's fine until you get stuck behind an EMU without auxiliary power. As far as failures are concerned, not going to happen. Even the 5 car will have two pantograph coaches and two transformers, so a failure of one will still leave the other available, and any failure down stream of the transformers will still be downstream of the AGU. If a train brings the wires down then it's unlikely going anywhere fast, AGU or not.

Anyway, if the AGU idea is so wonderful, why don't the 395s or other high speed trains have them?
fare point mate. Was never entirely convinced of the need for them but was just a thought.


 

WatcherZero

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They could limp to a siding or the next station until something was available to tow it in the event of electrical or transmission failures in the wires or vehicle, for me the two problems are a failed EMU on either side blocking it in or that the reason the powers down is it or another train has fouled the wires in which case its not getting past.

Flexibility to adapt to changing passenger demand through the day is quite good, you have the base 5 and 8 car sets and the ability form 10 car from two 5 car sets. I mean you people arent moaning when the 156 or 158 that run empty most of the day is strengthend in peak.
 

Zoe

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Two points about the depots listed: First, why use North Pole and not Old Oak Common? As HSTs are to remain in service for the Westcountry routes then Old Oak Common will have to remain for these. Is it really a great idea to split your intercity fleet into two different depots? Secondly I note that Plymouth is included. As I said above HSTs are to remain in service so I can't see that many IEP units reaching Plymouth unless the franchise requirment to run one train per day in each direction from Paddington to Penzance via Bristol is to be IEP operated.
 

WatcherZero

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Its not the franchise operator doing the servicing, Agility trains IEP is a manufacture, fleet management and servicing contract. They will be providing the trains to the TOC each morning at designated points ready for service for at least two franchises.
 

ChrisCooper

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Maybe because they are planning to use Old Oak Common as the terminus for HS2.

Old Oak Common is actually more than one depot (3 infact). There is the HST depot which also houses some of the FGW 165s and 166s, the Heathrow Express Depot, and the former EWS depot. The latter is what will be used by Crossrail.

Considering the IEPs will be totally different beasts to maintain and service compared to the HSTs, there would be no benefit having them at the same depot. Most new trains these days have their own depots built for them, or their own facilities built at existing depots, as the equipment is specially designed for them.
 

silentone

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Where has it been said that there will be an eight car bi-mode? WatcherZero's post suggests only five car bi-mode trains. Actually reading that posts suggests ten and not eight car EMUs.

In his post about the Eight Car formation the description of it's make-up lists three 'M(e)S' which, as I read it, are Motor Car (Diesel engine in bi-mode) Standard Class. That to me suggests an eight car bi-mode set.
 

WatcherZero

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As the coachs are interchangable I think it just reflects that they could form an eight car bi-mode set and those are the coachs which would have engines if they did. The government isnt ordering any 8 car bi-modes only 5 car bi-mode sets as standard.
 

w1bbl3

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Would be interesting to know what the CO2 per seat is for a Voyager and a dragged Pendolino on Crewe to Hollyhead, especially if the weight of a useless (for that part) pantograph coach is taken into account.

Oh and lightest intercity trains in Europe. 43.8t per coach for the 10car electric (5 car will be heavier due to doubling up of some of the heavy equipment), compared to a Voyager at 46.4t, hardly a massive improvement, particularly as the Voyager is a 4 car DEMU compared to a 10car EMU. I bet the 5 car bi-mode comes out heavier than a Voyager, and remember this is the same Voyager that the IEP is supposed to be *so* much better than.

The CO2 figures would be interesting.

I actually do not see the purpose of AGU either but it is a DfT specification item so Hitachi are bound to provide the feature.

Remember an IEP car is 26m whilst a Voyager car is 23m, 13% increase in length for a 5% reduction in weight. Voyager cars are 2.01t per metre whilst IEP electric 10 car is apparently 1.68t per metre.

The figures published in rail do state the weight per seat of each IEP type which if correct would make the trainset the lightest high speed (E)MU / (D)MU on the network per passenger seat provided.

I'll requote the figures WatcherZero kindly typed:
IEP 5 Car Bi-mode, 249t (tare), 309 seats, 0.81t per seat

This compares against:
Class 220 4 Car DMU, 185.6t (tare), 200 seats, 0.93t per seat

Unless I'm very much mistaken makes Voyagers 14% heavier per seat than current IEP bimode design.

Alstom class 180's come out around 8% heavier per seat (252.5t tare for 287 seats).

Bombardier don't as far as I can tell publish tare weights for class 222 cars, motors or total set's which is a shame as I expect Cl222 5 car to get the closest to IEP 5 car bi-mode.
 

bangor-toad

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I actually do not see the purpose of AGU either but it is a DfT specification item so Hitachi are bound to provide the feature.

Engage wild speculation...
Someone is trying to be helpful. They've guessed that electrification will be done on the cheap and they've figured out the wires will blow down if a sparrow farts nearby.
Hmmm, since this will happen a lot and we'll get lynched by passengers stuck on immovable trains why not make it possible for the trains to move to the next station and let buses take the strain?

Oh, I so hope I'm wrong!
Jason
 

Zoe

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Even if electrification is extended to Swansea I doubt it will be the end of the IEP just that bi-mode won't be used for Swansea. You still have the north of Edinburgh services and trains to Worcester and Chelthenham.
 

Daimler

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Even if electrification is extended to Swansea I doubt it will be the end of the IEP just that bi-mode won't be used for Swansea. You still have the north of Edinburgh services and trains to Worcester and Chelthenham.

But will it be worth the hassle? I like to think that Roger Ford knows what he's talking about...
 

Zoe

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But will it be worth the hassle? I like to think that Roger Ford knows what he's talking about...
Roger Ford though won't be making the decision. Does he have access to inside information that no-one else does? It's also possible he could be referring to the IEP plan in its current form.
 

Zoe

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So if the IEP gets scrapped then what options are there? Off the shelf EMUs for Paddington to Bristol and Swansea and retain HSTs on Paddington to Worceter/Hereford and Cheltenham and King's Cross to Aberdeen/Inverness in addition to Paddington to Plymouth/Penzance and the MML?
 

starrymarkb

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He is in regular contact with the TOCs (non of whom are too keen on IEP) though I gather the DfT is trying to block Hitachi from talking to him. Similarly all new franchise bidders are blocked from talking to the media about what they intend to offer.
 

tbtc

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Even if electrification is extended to Swansea I doubt it will be the end of the IEP just that bi-mode won't be used for Swansea. You still have the north of Edinburgh services and trains to Worcester and Chelthenham.

I'd imagine that if electrification is extended to places like Swansea then the logical step is for IEP units to move to other routes like London - Holyhead/ Hull or Manchester Airport - Newcastle or Manchester - Bristol (where they can use their pantographs on part of the route)
 

starrymarkb

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So if the IEP gets scrapped then what options are there? Off the shelf EMUs for Paddington to Bristol and Swansea and retain HSTs on Paddington to Worceter/Hereford and Cheltenham and King's Cross to Aberdeen/Inverness in addition to Paddington to Plymouth/Penzance and the MML?

That is the £64000 question. Some TOCs would prefer straight and simple EMUs and use the money saved (over the life of the stock - IEP isn't going to be cheap to maintain) to extend the wiring further
 
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