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IEP Annoucement

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junglejames

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It's not stupid. Extra capacity was needed and two/three car 165s/166s were unable to offer this. FGW offered an easy solution to this by using HSTs on some peak commuter services. So far it has worked very well.

What? So are you saying that a HST struggles to take the extra traffic? Thats an awful lot extra. Hate to think what the Thames Turbos were like beforehand.

Still, this should be deemed temporary. Not permanent. Extra trains should be ordered. But there arent any. HSTs are being used on services they shouldnt be used on. Bit silly, and no end in sight.

So, because they always prefer the cheap and easy option, the long distance travellers have to suffer (well, some of them do. Some may prefer it as it is).

Of course, if you look at it from one angle, then this is a very sensible decision. It was very easy, and very cheap. But if you look at it from another angle, its all a stupid idea. I look at it from one angle, and Zoe looks at it from another. We shall agree to disagree.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What extra coaches? There aren't any to be had...

Thats a problem. The disjointed railway has meant the spare Mk3s went off to charter/ freight companies. Obviously not purely FGWs fault, but they should have looked ahead and snapped more up when they were available.

Of course, the other option, if Turbos can no longer take traffic. A 57 or 67, and a nice long rake of Mk2s. If passengers wouldnt like these old fashiopned trains! then order new trains.

At the end of the day, its always been the easiest/ cheapest option.
Partly because of FGW, and partly as a result of privatisation
 
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starrymarkb

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Or, an extra coach! Take your pick. Well FGW took cheap option.
Maidenhaead and Twyford? Oh my god. So now not only have FGW got **** HSTs, but they also use them on stupid services. My you really are building up a case for FGW to be shown the door. But, its all the cheap option.

Not enough spare Mark 3s for the full fleet (unless you count Buffets/Sleepers). Also there is a performance loss with the extra coach, both in speed and accelleration - GNER HSTs balance on level track at 115mph and use their HSTs on long nonstop runs where the slower accelleration isn't a factor.

Bristol is now in Lhe london commuter belt. Remember that there is no parallel semi fast D/EMU service like on the ECML or WCML - there isn't room for one on the two track line. So there isn't anything to ease the pressure on the HST services...
 

sprinterguy

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I’m thinking: Assuming that the diesel engines under the Bi-mode IEP are rated at around 300hp each, giving 900hp per carriage and 2700hp per train. mebbe slightly less (Unless one engine per carriage is being used solely to power the auxillaries even when not under the wires). A 300hp engine is basically equivalent to that under a 150 or 156. So when this thing revs away from a station stop, can you imagine the racket you’ll get from the equivalent of a three carriage Sprinter train condensed to fit under a single carriage??? And then multiply that by three to cover all the powered carriages. Any hope for a quiet passenger saloon? I doubt it. These trains are going to be absolutely hellfire for noise….<D
 

junglejames

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Not enough spare Mark 3s for the full fleet (unless you count Buffets/Sleepers). Also there is a performance loss with the extra coach, both in speed and accelleration - GNER HSTs balance on level track at 115mph and use their HSTs on long nonstop runs where the slower accelleration isn't a factor.

Bristol is now in Lhe london commuter belt. Remember that there is no parallel semi fast D/EMU service like on the ECML or WCML - there isn't room for one on the two track line. So there isn't anything to ease the pressure on the HST services...

East Coast HSTs only go 115?? Nope, thats not true. They still manage 125.
Yes slower acceleration, but as you say, that doesnt matter on long distance services. The HSTs should not be used on local stoppers at all. They arent designed for it. FGW should have ordered new stock, and not ruined the HSTs. Well again, thats my opinion that they are ruined.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I’m thinking: Assuming that the diesel engines under the Bi-mode IEP are rated at around 300hp each, giving 900hp per carriage and 2700hp per train. mebbe slightly less (Unless one engine per carriage is being used solely to power the auxillaries even when not under the wires). A 300hp engine is basically equivalent to that under a 150 or 156. So when this thing revs away from a station stop, can you imagine the racket you’ll get from the equivalent of a three carriage Sprinter train condensed to fit under a single carriage??? And then multiply that by three to cover all the powered carriages. Any hope for a quiet passenger saloon? I doubt it. These trains are going to be absolutely hellfire for noise….<D

Another point as well. With these being smaller engines, are they going to have to then be higher revving to get the necessary power for 125?
High Speed diesels arent usually as reliable.
Or will the fact they have so many, mean high speed diesels isnt necessary? Im not sure of any facts etc etc.
 

sprinterguy

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East Coast HSTs only go 115?? Nope, thats not true. They still manage 125.
Yes slower acceleration, but as you say, that doesnt matter on long distance services. The HSTs should not be used on local stoppers at all. They arent designed for it. FGW should have ordered new stock, and not ruined the HSTs. Well again, thats my opinion that they are ruined.
The extra weight of an added carriage, even if they were available which isn’t the case, would definitely have implications over the Devon banks though, and I don’t think FGW would be able to diagram the extended trains carefully enough to keep them on South Wales services away from the South West. Just look at the current situation where the “High Density” trains sometimes escape from their intended Oxford duties onto the long distance GWML runs.

I agree that the HSTs are not at all suited to the frequent stop, outer suburban duties that FGW are using on them. However, new trains are not forthcoming, so they did the best that they could with what they had available. Better than sitting on their laurels and sticking with rammed Turbos, which would have had them slated much more vociferously.

Another point as well. With these being smaller engines, are they going to have to then be higher revving to get the necessary power for 125?
High Speed diesels arent usually as reliable.
Or will the fact they have so many, mean high speed diesels isnt necessary? Im not sure of any facts etc etc.

It is being said a lot that the IEP Bi-mode trains will only be good for 90 or 100mph when running on diesel power, which on many routes they will be used for beyond the wires, will be sufficient.
 

Rhydgaled

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No its not. 1 larger is better than loads of small.
Exactly. What's a power station? A VERY big engine (perhaps not exactly literally of course). Electric trains are more efficient than diesel, and why is that? Either a power station (VERY big engine) is more efficient than loads of small engines or it's all to do with the weight saving on the train, or most likely a combination of both. Either way, bi-mode looks pretty emmisions intensive compared to all-electric. I have heard mentioned somewhere that the bi-modes might be able to keep to the electric timetable on diesel power in the event of OHLE failure. If this is the case they will need a heck of a lot more power than a (reletivly) sluggishly accelerating IC125 so the emmisions of the bi-modes would be VERY MUCH GREATER for any given stretch of diesel running than an IC125. The extra weight will mean their emmisions on OHLE power (especially if one diesel engine per coach is still running) will not be much better, if at all, than an IC125 running under the wires.

Surely its more than likely an engine of the size required wouldnt fit underfloor, so its necessary to fit a load of smaller ones side by side.
Not sure, but sounds more plausible.
That sounds like a logical reason why multiple engines could be needed, but as I said I agree that a single larger engine is likely to be more efficient than several smaller ones.

We've discussed this before and for various reasons locomotive haulage off the wires is not possible. These include Hitachi not wanting to build a loco, the logistics of having to change a loco and the emissions associated with having a locomotive.

So, we have politicians who cant think beyond Hitachi, and we arent allowed emissions from a loco, but we are allowed the increased (yes increased) emissions from a DMU? Sorry Zoe, I know you insist on listening to a couple of other members on this forum, but a loco will use less fuel. Its all science, and it all makes sense, oh, and the figures are there to prove it.
I'd like to see the figures of just how much less greenhouse footprint dragging an EMU with a locomotive would produce over the bi-mode option. It obviously would be less, even if you assume none of the engines on the bi-mode are running under the wires. This is because not having to haul the weight of all that diesel fuel and the engines would reduce the electric power consumpsion, it is common sence. The logistics are more of a problem, which is why bi-mode might be unavoidable for the Worcester/Great Malvern/Hereford route (hourly service and, I am told, an inapropriate station layout at Oxford). However, if 34 years ago a 4TC could be uncoupled from another 4TC and a 4REP and coupled to class 33 at Bournemouth for the train to go on to Weymouth every hour then I'm sure today's railwaymen can manage to swap a class 91 for a class 57 at Swansea 2 or 3 times per day for the Carmarthen/Pembroke Dock services. Attaching a locomotive to an EMU to go to Aberdeen/Inverness etc. would be even easier, due to not having to get the electric loco off first. No pulling diesels about through electrified sections, simples.

Locos wont be used, because it will mean scraping the Hitachi bid.
Oh, but there is a way round that. If Hitachi won't do electric locos, you can't get an IC225 type electric train with loco swaps at the end of wires (which would be the most energy efficient method, thanks to not having the (admittedly small) extra weight of the pantograph, transformers etc. while off-wire). However, you can still have Hitachi EMUs, dragged by diesel locos sourced from elsewhere (you don't even have to build new, we have plenty spare, even if most are a little old.) Whether you build new diesel locos or repair our existing ones (whichever is cheaper) you still get the advantages of avoiding bi-mode.

A locomotive can never offer all the benefits you get with a multiple unit.
True, but a multiple unit can never offer all the advantages of LHCS either. LHCS is very wastefull if you have fewer than 3 coaches, and short (1-3 car), slow (no faster than 100mph) MUs with corridor connections at the unit ends are highly flexible. However, trains that can exceed 100mph cannot have a corridor connection at the leading end, so multiple unit flexibility falls down here. Long multiple units also suffer from being a fixed length, you can't easily decide to shorten some sets for less popular services and lengthen others at peak times. Here LHCS flexibility comes in, as you can change the formation to your hearts content, no messing around with complicated software necessary. Also, if Hitachi would build LHCS, cheap follow on orders of additional coaches to lengthen trains or replace the Mrk3 stock behind the class 90s in East Anglia would be possible. You could also order 4-car or 5-car rakes with a DBSO to run with TDM equiped 57s, like those needed for the Pembroke services, on routes which are currently doubled-up 158s, allowing those 158s to increase service frequencies elsewhere.
 

jon0844

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Bi-mode must have downsides, but it solves a problem doesn't it? The lack of wires - or routes which are wired up for a significant percentage of the way.

If these trains are modular, then as and when we go all-electric, or the stock is cascaded, it can be adapted for relatively little cost. If we have loads of these trains with a fairly standard design then it will really help manage demand on the UK railway network as a whole in years to come.
 

Zoe

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However, you can still have Hitachi EMUs, dragged by diesel locos
I don't think it's that simple. The IEP is quite complex and any locomotive would need to be compatible. It's not just a case of physically dragging the EMU. I doubt Hitachi will want to release confidential information about their train.
 

LE Greys

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East Coast HSTs only go 115?? Nope, thats not true. They still manage 125.
Yes slower acceleration, but as you say, that doesnt matter on long distance services. The HSTs should not be used on local stoppers at all. They arent designed for it. FGW should have ordered new stock, and not ruined the HSTs. Well again, thats my opinion that they are ruined.

I agree that the HSTs are not at all suited to the frequent stop, outer suburban duties that FGW are using on them. However, new trains are not forthcoming, so they did the best that they could with what they had available. Better than sitting on their laurels and sticking with rammed Turbos, which would have had them slated much more vociferously.

The problem with HST acceleration is power falloff over the medium-speed range. Off the mark, HSTs can hit 15mph before the rear power car clears the platform, and roughly equal 317s between King's Cross and Finsbury Park. The problem comes at anything over 50 mph, where tractive effort tends to fall away with a diesel-electric before the relatively-constant horsepower delivery comes back at over 100. That just so happens to be the point where electrics can deliver both maximum tractive effort and horsepower, although a high-geared electric can be mighty slow off the mark (especially an Electra). Above that, the risk of flashovers and overheating means that field-weakening has to come in, therefore reducing the power and allowing diesels to make a comeback. An added bonus with electrics is the ability to climb hills at regular speed, where a diesel would simply run out of power or overheat.

What that means is that a Class 90, with lower gearing and lower top speed, is faster than both an HST and an Electra on a semi-fast (say London-Newark as planned) while an Electra and an HST are roughly equal on a flat route, but Electras are slightly better at pulling away from signal checks and climbing hills. Their additional 15 mph of top speed would be helpful if they could use it, but that is one reason for the high gear ratio. Swings and roundabouts.

Exactly. What's a power station? A VERY big engine (perhaps not exactly literally of course). Electric trains are more efficient than diesel, and why is that? Either a power station (VERY big engine) is more efficient than loads of small engines or it's all to do with the weight saving on the train, or most likely a combination of both. Either way, bi-mode looks pretty emmisions intensive compared to all-electric. I have heard mentioned somewhere that the bi-modes might be able to keep to the electric timetable on diesel power in the event of OHLE failure. If this is the case they will need a heck of a lot more power than a (reletivly) sluggishly accelerating IC125 so the emmisions of the bi-modes would be VERY MUCH GREATER for any given stretch of diesel running than an IC125. The extra weight will mean their emmisions on OHLE power (especially if one diesel engine per coach is still running) will not be much better, if at all, than an IC125 running under the wires.

One thing with diesel-electrics in particular is that the power is fed through two sets of electrical equipment, alternator and motors. Unlike power station alternators, these both have to run at variable speeds, which adds weight and reduces efficiency. Diesel-hydraulics are a lot lighter, but thermal efficiency is about the same, because there the power train includes torque-converter and final drive. However, the weight saving is no real benefit, because hydraulic systems are not as reliable on a large (locomotive) scale. DMUs seem to manage fine.

That sounds like a logical reason why multiple engines could be needed, but as I said I agree that a single larger engine is likely to be more efficient than several smaller ones.

The best way to compare there would be to look at aircraft. Comparing say an A-330 with an A-340 would give some interesting results, since they both use the same fuselage and basically the same engine. The 330 needs more power, in case an engine fails on takeoff, but in the cruise, two big engines are slightly less efficient than four smaller ones. However, the 340 needs twice the number of parts, needs to service twice the number of engines and uses about 1.5 times the ammount of lubricant. That pushes costs up. The 340 is quieter and slightly safer, since losing one engine is less of a penalty, but twice as many engines means twice as many things to go wrong. The biggest difference is range, but that is simply because the 340 is not covered by ETOPS. Once again, swings and roundabouts.

I'd like to see the figures of just how much less greenhouse footprint dragging an EMU with a locomotive would produce over the bi-mode option. It obviously would be less, even if you assume none of the engines on the bi-mode are running under the wires. This is because not having to haul the weight of all that diesel fuel and the engines would reduce the electric power consumpsion, it is common sence. The logistics are more of a problem, which is why bi-mode might be unavoidable for the Worcester/Great Malvern/Hereford route (hourly service and, I am told, an inapropriate station layout at Oxford). However, if 34 years ago a 4TC could be uncoupled from another 4TC and a 4REP and coupled to class 33 at Bournemouth for the train to go on to Weymouth every hour then I'm sure today's railwaymen can manage to swap a class 91 for a class 57 at Swansea 2 or 3 times per day for the Carmarthen/Pembroke Dock services. Attaching a locomotive to an EMU to go to Aberdeen/Inverness etc. would be even easier, due to not having to get the electric loco off first. No pulling diesels about through electrified sections, simples.

That's roughly what I've been saying. Electric on the south end, diesel on the north end and a rake with two driving cabs. Diagrams should be easy to work out, assuming that the diesel comes off a southbound train at Waverley, then heads up into the Mound Tunnel and backs down directly onto a northbound train. If 80 years ago with screw couplings, we could manage the high-intensity Jazz service, then with modern couplers it should be easy. Only issue is whether the train could run straight in and couple to the new loco or whether the loco would have to back down.

Oh, but there is a way round that. If Hitachi won't do electric locos, you can't get an IC225 type electric train with loco swaps at the end of wires (which would be the most energy efficient method, thanks to not having the (admittedly small) extra weight of the pantograph, transformers etc. while off-wire). However, you can still have Hitachi EMUs, dragged by diesel locos sourced from elsewhere (you don't even have to build new, we have plenty spare, even if most are a little old.) Whether you build new diesel locos or repair our existing ones (whichever is cheaper) you still get the advantages of avoiding bi-mode.

I'd go for 67 conversions. Possibly regear them for 100 mph to increase low-speed adhesion (their biggest problem AIUI). 57s would probably do OK as well, and even 66s at a pinch (but only in the summer).

True, but a multiple unit can never offer all the advantages of LHCS either. LHCS is very wastefull if you have fewer than 3 coaches, and short (1-3 car), slow (no faster than 100mph) MUs with corridor connections at the unit ends are highly flexible. However, trains that can exceed 100mph cannot have a corridor connection at the leading end, so multiple unit flexibility falls down here. Long multiple units also suffer from being a fixed length, you can't easily decide to shorten some sets for less popular services and lengthen others at peak times. Here LHCS flexibility comes in, as you can change the formation to your hearts content, no messing around with complicated software necessary. Also, if Hitachi would build LHCS, cheap follow on orders of additional coaches to lengthen trains or replace the Mrk3 stock behind the class 90s in East Anglia would be possible. You could also order 4-car or 5-car rakes with a DBSO to run with TDM equiped 57s, like those needed for the Pembroke services, on routes which are currently doubled-up 158s, allowing those 158s to increase service frequencies elsewhere.

You can't make the MkIII rakes any longer, because of Liverpool Street, but it must be possible to build new DBSOs to replace the DVTs. However, the MkIV rakes could do with an extra coach. Since some have been written off, I would go for concentrating them into DVT+10 rakes and move the W&SR MkIIIs over here plus any other spares, form them into two or three rakes and set them to work. New stock (possibly Irish-style from CAF) could replace them in time.
 

starrymarkb

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FGW should have ordered new stock, and not ruined the HSTs. Well again, thats my opinion that they are ruined.

At the time bidders for Great Western were prohibited in the franchise agreement from new stock as the DfT was going to procure HST2 for them with a planned entry into service of 2010!

Even the Bristol trains are becoming outer suburbanized - it is quicker to commute to London from Bristol then it was from large parts of Kent! Thats without the large employment centres at Reading and Swindon.
 

TGV

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L E Greys - any train delivers maximum tractive effort from lower speeds (or indeed from stationary if you're not talking continuous ratings) - whether diesel or electric... I'm not sure I'm following what you're trying to say? I may have missed your point.

On other points dotted about this never-ending thread:

- Bigger diesel engines have higher thermal and volumetric efficiency than smaller ones. They bring their own problems in terms of heat management, physical packaging and axle loads, but as power generation, they are more efficient - whether 4 or 2 stroke. There was a lot of development in 2 strokes in the last 20 years, but there's a swing back to 4 strokes recently with modern advances in electronic control.

- In my experience, a class 365 is the fastest thing by far on the climb out of Kings Cross to Finsbury Pk. In fact, providing they don't stop there, they're faster than an HST or class 91 (I don't think they've been called Electra since the '80s!) out as far as Hatfield or Welwyn GC depending on the drivers.

The reasons for packaging underfloor engines are obvious and have benefits for short distance travel, but I hate - with a passion - any long distance train (say, over 100 miles) that uses these awful bloody things.
 

junglejames

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At the time bidders for Great Western were prohibited in the franchise agreement from new stock as the DfT was going to procure HST2 for them with a planned entry into service of 2010!

Even the Bristol trains are becoming outer suburbanized - it is quicker to commute to London from Bristol then it was from large parts of Kent! Thats without the large employment centres at Reading and Swindon.

All pretty poor if you ask me. By both FGW and DFT.
FGW shouldnt have gotten rid of the 180s. They were too hasty.
They had their problems, but they would have also solved a lot.
 

Zoe

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At the time bidders for Great Western were prohibited in the franchise agreement from new stock as the DfT was going to procure HST2 for them with a planned entry into service of 2010!
I'm not sure this was actually the plan, I doubt FGW would have ordered MTU engines or the extensive refurbishment if they were only going to get four years of service.
 

ainsworth74

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I'm not sure this was actually the plan, I doubt FGW would have ordered MTU engines or the extensive refurbishment if they were only going to get four years of service.

It's not far off though. My recollection is that the FGW refurb/MTUing was intended to see the HSTs out to 2013ish at which time IEP (or HST2 I suppose at that time) would be coming on-line in numbers. Either way the point is that the refurb that the HSTs got was only meant to see them through to the middle of this decade. Hence why there are questions as to whether further life extension work will be required for the remaining HSTs after IEP arrives.
 

Zoe

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Hence why there are questions as to whether further life extension work will be required for the remaining HSTs after IEP arrives.
Would have thought only if they are to remain in service in 2020.
 

Zoe

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How long are the HSTs running to Penzance after IEP is introduced in 2016?
Not known at this time and don't forget they are to also be retained on the MML. Both depend on future decisions.
 

Rhydgaled

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I don't think it's that simple. The IEP is quite complex and any locomotive would need to be compatible. It's not just a case of physically dragging the EMU. I doubt Hitachi will want to release confidential information about their train.
What's needed other than the obvious power take-off for lighting/heating on the train and ability to physically drag it? I assume the 57s are fitted up to provide this for their Pendo drags, and couldn't the DfT specify that the IEP trains should provide a standard coupler of a type already used in the UK?

The problem with HST acceleration is power falloff over the medium-speed range. Off the mark, HSTs can hit 15mph before the rear power car clears the platform, and roughly equal 317s between King's Cross and Finsbury Park. The problem comes at anything over 50 mph, where tractive effort tends to fall away with a diesel-electric before the relatively-constant horsepower delivery comes back at over 100. That just so happens to be the point where electrics can deliver both maximum tractive effort and horsepower, although a high-geared electric can be mighty slow off the mark (especially an Electra). Above that, the risk of flashovers and overheating means that field-weakening has to come in, therefore reducing the power and allowing diesels to make a comeback. An added bonus with electrics is the ability to climb hills at regular speed, where a diesel would simply run out of power or overheat.

What that means is that a Class 90, with lower gearing and lower top speed, is faster than both an HST and an Electra on a semi-fast (say London-Newark as planned) while an Electra and an HST are roughly equal on a flat route, but Electras are slightly better at pulling away from signal checks and climbing hills. Their additional 15 mph of top speed would be helpful if they could use it, but that is one reason for the high gear ratio. Swings and roundabouts
Sorry, I am unable to comprehend your detailed description of alternators etc. but would I be right in saying a few East Coast services are allocated for 225 operation only, and the others are timetabled a bit slower to allow 125 operation due to the electric 225s accelerating a bit faster than a 125 overall?

That's roughly what I've been saying. Electric on the south end, diesel on the north end and a rake with two driving cabs. Diagrams should be easy to work out, assuming that the diesel comes off a southbound train at Waverley, then heads up into the Mound Tunnel and backs down directly onto a northbound train. If 80 years ago with screw couplings, we could manage the high-intensity Jazz service, then with modern couplers it should be easy. Only issue is whether the train could run straight in and couple to the new loco or whether the loco would have to back down.

I'd go for 67 conversions. Possibly regear them for 100 mph to increase low-speed adhesion (their biggest problem AIUI). 57s would probably do OK as well, and even 66s at a pinch (but only in the summer).
As I said, for Pembroke/Carmarthen I'd use a 57. That's because I know that back when they were 47s some had TDM, so perhaps they are more likely to be able to have this technology fitted. Swaping the class 91 of an IC225 for a TDM fitted 57 would mean you could get to Pembroke without having to run-round at Carmarthen or resorting to the hated (for long-distance trains) underfloor diesel engines.

You can't make the MkIII rakes any longer, because of Liverpool Street, but it must be possible to build new DBSOs to replace the DVTs. However, the MkIV rakes could do with an extra coach. Since some have been written off, I would go for concentrating them into DVT+10 rakes and move the W&SR MkIIIs over here plus any other spares, form them into two or three rakes and set them to work. New stock (possibly Irish-style from CAF) could replace them in time.
I think I needed some more commas in the bit you're refering too. What I meant was additional cars could be ordered for:
  • Lengthening trains delivered to GWML and ECML in the inital deployment
  • Replacing Anglia mrk3s (and any mrk2 and 3 stock elsewhere) with new stock, to avoid referbishing them to make them disability compliant
  • Replacing doubled up DMUs with push-pull LHCS to allow the DMUs to introduce improved services (eg. 2 LHCS rakes could knock 4 158s off Birmingham - Holyhead, more than enough (by 1 unit) to run a 2-hourly Fishguard - Cardiff express service (although I want to see that done right now with existing mrk2s and mrk2 DBSOs anyway)).
 

ainsworth74

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Not known at this time and don't forget they are to also be retained on the MML. Both depend on future decisions.

Yeah true I'd forgotten about the MMLs HSTs. Basically we've only got about half the picture to go on, the rest is just speculation...
 

starrymarkb

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Would have thought only if they are to remain in service in 2020.

From the FGW briefing, most of the fleet will be overhauled in the next year or two to take them through to 2017/18 with a smaller SW pool getting major work for another 10 years service
 

moggie

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What baffles me about the notion of a mix of 5 + car Bi mode units is the implied significant increase in attaching units at mid point stations such as Cardiff. Quite apart from whether the signalling facilities are configured for attaching movements the additional time taken for routing into an occupied platform, coupling two units, opening doors presumably after the coupling movement takes place and the driving techniques employed when making such movements must impose a performance constraint not present in todays timetable. Then as one can imagine, the potential for even more disruption during 'the wrong type of snow' scenario the problems of making good the electrical train control / monitoring connections should ensure fun and games.

That will remove a few minutes from the claimed improvements in journey time I would think.
 

starrymarkb

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All pretty poor if you ask me. By both FGW and DFT.
FGW shouldnt have gotten rid of the 180s. They were too hasty.
They had their problems, but they would have also solved a lot.

Apart from not being available in sufficient numbers. FGW have struggled to find a use for the 180s, if they had actually ordered them then they might have taken a different form, as it was they were ordered by North West Trains, then diverted when the Virgin Moderation of Competition killed off the service they were ordered for, what FGW have is what could be agreed as a variation order with Alstom for the surplus NWT vehicles that were about to enter build
 

Zoe

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From the FGW briefing, most of the fleet will be overhauled in the next year or two to take them through to 2017/18 with a smaller SW pool getting major work for another 10 years service
Is that ten years from now or ten years from 2017/18? 2020 is only just less than ten years away so you wouldn't such extensive modifications. Remember also that bi-mode is still an option and Philip Hammand did not confirm life extension to remain in service in 2020. If it's the latter than we still have HSTs in service in 2028, by that time about fifty years old.
 

starrymarkb

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From a presentation by Matthew Gorton of FGW to TravelWatch SouthWest
on 5th March 2011 at Taunton.

"The HST fleet, refurbished by FGW for a life to 2013, will be extended
to 2016 for the whole fleet with a longer extended life for a smaller
fleet for West of England services, pending cascade of other trains
from elsewhere in the UK or further new builds. "
 

Zoe

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That doesn't say anything about 2020 though. Life extension so they can remain in service in 2020 would I think at least require automatic doors to be fitted.
 

w1bbl3

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As the GWML franchise is to be relet for 2016 onwards DfT could always push HST west replacement on to the operator in return for a longer franchise term of 15 years+.

What we are seeing today is only half the picture with Anglia mk3's, MML HST's and GWML west HST's all needing replacement or significant rebuilds beyond 2016, some 400+ cars/coaches worth of stock.

I suppose the most logical replacement would be electrification and new build EMU's for MML replacing HST's and cascading Meridians to Anglia with any surplus going for spot hire and a follow on order for more IEP's to cover GWML west.
 

LE Greys

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As the GWML franchise is to be relet for 2016 onwards DfT could always push HST west replacement on to the operator in return for a longer franchise term of 15 years+.

What we are seeing today is only half the picture with Anglia mk3's, MML HST's and GWML west HST's all needing replacement or significant rebuilds beyond 2016, some 400+ cars/coaches worth of stock.

I suppose the most logical replacement would be electrification and new build EMU's for MML replacing HST's and cascading Meridians to Anglia with any surplus going for spot hire and a follow on order for more IEP's to cover GWML west.

I don't really think NXEC (Anglia) will have any real use for them. They're overpowered, too heavy for SP speed limits and diesel rather than electric. Possibly removing the engines and fitting pantograph and transformers would work, but they're more likely to go to TPX or XC, where their high speed and diesel engines would be more useful. Even FGW could use them on semi-fast services on main lines.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry, I am unable to comprehend your detailed description of alternators etc...

Don't worry, I sometimes fail to comprehend what I've written in the past as well.
 

WatcherZero

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I agree, I dont think we have seen the last IEP orders and more could be added over the next 6 years for Penzance/MML/East Coast on franchise change, more electrification or simply more money in government coffers. Its already been hinted by government that they are considering more west country orders at a later date (my guess around 2014).
 

Zoe

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I agree, I dont think we have seen the last IEP orders and more could be added over the next 6 years for Penzance/MML/East Coast on franchise change
The Plymouth/Penzance route as an option, as is the WCML but I'm not sure the deal with Hitachi had an MML option so it would have to go to tender throughout the EU.
 
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